Autopsy Round 6, 2024: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

[The Punter]

Perhaps we were slow because of ... 3 games (two interstate) in 11 days.

King doesn't look like a deep forward... 2 goals per game career average in this day and age... just who DOES look like a deep forward?

We were poor, but right royally screwed by two interstate trips, a trip to Geelong, one home match and two five day breaks (and a six day break) in the first six games.

 

[gringo2011]

Perhaps we were slow because of ... 3 games (two interstate) in 11 days.

King doesn't look like a deep forward... 2 goals per game career average in this day and age... just who DOES look like a deep forward?

We were poor, but right royally screwed by two interstate trips, a trip to Geelong, one home match and two five day breaks (and a six day break) in the first six games.

Our best looking setup had Snags standing in the square and Max at CHF against the Pies. Max roaming and Snags anchored. I'd play Hammer for the rest of the year and Collard if Butler can't perform. Invest now for the future.

 

[gringo2011]

Perhaps we were slow because of ... 3 games (two interstate) in 11 days.

King doesn't look like a deep forward... 2 goals per game career average in this day and age... just who DOES look like a deep forward?

We were poor, but right royally screwed by two interstate trips, a trip to Geelong, one home match and two five day breaks (and a six day break) in the first six games.

Not slow either, we ran further and faster than the Dogs but we were chasing the whole time.

 

[MordySaint]

King doesn't look like a deep forward... 2 goals per game career average in this day and age... just who DOES look like a deep forward?

https://www.saints.com.au/video/425167/draft-inner-sanctum

If you go back to draft night when he was taken - King actually said to the coach that he wants to play on the wing or up forward. Might be something in this.

Go to around 2.00 into the video above.

 

[gringo2011]

https://www.saints.com.au/video/425167/draft-inner-sanctum

If you go back to draft night when he was taken - King actually said to the coach that he wants to play on the wing or up forward. Might be something in this.

Go to around 2.00 into the video above.

I was a bit worried about taking King because he was a KP size but a lot of his goals were from snaps and roving the ball like a giant small forward. Thought he might struggle to get enough supply and fill out to be a big immobile type. He's been a lot better at developing his tall forward craft than I thought.

 

[MickG88]

Honestly the best thing for us is getting more injuries and play youth. Looking at the Dogs, they have better youth and better seniors. Sanders, JUH, Darcy are elite young talent and guys like Naughton, Weightman, Khamis etc are all high performing mid career talent and then a layer of elite players like Bont, English, Macrae, Treloar, Smith etc.

Their list is a top 4 list with heaps coming through for the future. They develop and draft well. They also seem to challenge then bust the next year to get high picks.

We are nowhere near them. We look like Essendon on paper but they are probably 2 years ahead because they were doing bulk youth a couple of years ahead of us. They look like they've chased mature talent to play finals to save face. We can't afford that this time.

We need to draft hard and play kids. I'd play as much youth as possible this year and not chase finals. If we made it we'd just get knocked out anyway. This draft has a heap of elite looking mids and just what we need. It would be a disaster not to get one.

Agreed, but you can't use Dogs as an example. Both JUH and Darcy we given to them, so much so that they changed the rules of academy players to stop it happening again. I feel there top line talent isn't as great as you make out, bont wasn't great against us and McCrea was dropped at the start of the year. Bulldogs like the Cats are in a funny position, aging stars with minimal youth coming through, when they need to top up then the Tassie team will be coming into the comp. Essendon have the right model but I feel they have too many in the midfielders so I would like to see if we could grab a McGarth type off them.

 

[MordySaint]

I was a bit worried about taking King because he was a KP size but a lot of his goals were from snaps and roving the ball like a giant small forward. Thought he might struggle to get enough supply and fill out to be a big immobile type. He's been a lot better at developing his tall forward craft than I thought.

He seems to be getting injured too much as a key forward and the 1-3 attention that he gets sometimes makes him frustrated, our ball use doesn't help either.

We were so transfixed with making Paddy McCartin our key forward saviour, we overlooked the position he was actually really good in.

Seems to be happening all over again with King.

 

[Brian Oblivion]

Agreed, but you can't use Dogs as an example. Both JUH and Darcy we given to them, so much so that they changed the rules of academy players to stop it happening again. I feel there top line talent isn't as great as you make out, bont wasn't great against us and McCrea was dropped at the start of the year. Bulldogs like the Cats are in a funny position, aging stars with minimal youth coming through, when they need to top up then the Tassie team will be coming into the comp. Essendon have the right model but I feel they have too many in the midfielders so I would like to see if we could grab a McGarth type off them.

Pretty sure McGrath ain't a midfielder though.

 

[Desperate saint]

Our best looking setup had Snags standing in the square and Max at CHF against the Pies. Max roaming and Snags anchored. I'd play Hammer for the rest of the year and Collard if Butler can't perform. Invest now for the future.

100% anchor Higgins in the fwd line permantly

 

[Diehard Saint]

Perhaps we were slow because of ... 3 games (two interstate) in 11 days.

King doesn't look like a deep forward... 2 goals per game career average in this day and age... just who DOES look like a deep forward?

We were poor, but right royally screwed by two interstate trips, a trip to Geelong, one home match and two five day breaks (and a six day break) in the first six games.

Perfectly clear the AFL don’t give two sh*ts about a minnow club like the
Saints. We’re there to make up the up the numbers.
Really hope the club has some balls and challenges them on that.

Playing the Cats (away), GWS (away) and Pies in the first five games - tough, but we have to deal with it. But off the back of the breaks you mentioned, that’s a total debacle.

 

[SG34]

I remember hearing Llordo say the Ben is a lead-and-marker and that Max is a contested-pack-marker. At the time I thought great! Then I saw Max and his frail frame, and thought he would be an injury magnet as such a type.

 

[gringo2011]

Agreed, but you can't use Dogs as an example. Both JUH and Darcy we given to them, so much so that they changed the rules of academy players to stop it happening again. I feel there top line talent isn't as great as you make out, bont wasn't great against us and McCrea was dropped at the start of the year. Bulldogs like the Cats are in a funny position, aging stars with minimal youth coming through, when they need to top up then the Tassie team will be coming into the comp. Essendon have the right model but I feel they have too many in the midfielders so I would like to see if we could grab a McGarth type off them.

I reckon they have a good spread of talent. Khamis, Weightman, Richards, West etc are all young and solid contributors. They have guys like Busslinger and Sanders, Croft, Darcy, Freija all developing. Alot of their older talent is still only late 20s. Treloar and Libba are the only over 30s that are hard to replace but Sanders is a nice start.

 

[Otiman]

Perhaps we were slow because of ... 3 games (two interstate) in 11 days.

King doesn't look like a deep forward... 2 goals per game career average in this day and age... just who DOES look like a deep forward?

We were poor, but right royally screwed by two interstate trips, a trip to Geelong, one home match and two five day breaks (and a six day break) in the first six games.

Hammer and Collard deep. King and Membrey roaming up the ground.

Higgins license to shallow or deep.

 

[EddieMurphy]

I was a bit worried about taking King because he was a KP size but a lot of his goals were from snaps and roving the ball like a giant small forward. Thought he might struggle to get enough supply and fill out to be a big immobile type. He's been a lot better at developing his tall forward craft than I thought.

Wasn't he #1 for contested marks a few years back?

 

[MordySaint]

Wasn't he #1 for contested marks a few years back?

King was taking a lot of marks around the ground .. 1 on 1 he is almost unbeatable.

 

[pebblesofsand]

I reckon they have a good spread of talent. Khamis, Weightman, Richards, West etc are all young and solid contributors. They have guys like Busslinger and Sanders, Croft, Darcy, Freija all developing. Alot of their older talent is still only late 20s. Treloar and Libba are the only over 30s that are hard to replace but Sanders is a nice start.

Sanders would want to be far better than a "nice start" - cost them Pick 10 & 17 last year and this years 1st rounder to get him and a couple of late picks.

I reckon you'd be screaming for blood if we did that.

 

[Circus]

Well, this thread degenerated a bit. Have a look at the teams at the top of the ladder, they all have much more physically developed and stronger players than we do. They are able to withstand contest after contest for longer. Our only option is to play fast footy, they are the only cattle we have, and a lot of them haven't been able to play much, or any, football so far.

Battle and Stocker are physically strong defenders, Marshall and Steele in the mids and Membrey, Owens and Higgins up forward, but they aren't tall pack crashing players. All the rest are relatively slight for the positions they play. Crouch, Clarke, Wood, possibly Dow, will help in that regard when available. Our younger players need time to develop physically and to gain experience in competing at the highest level for an entire game.

In the meantime, we have to play "outside" type football as much as we can, but that requires great decision making and the ability to handball accurately and quickly, and to kick accurately into space. That has let us down incredibly badly every game at some stage. We have only got it right for relatively brief periods in each game. The turnovers are absolute killers, momentum, belief and sustained effort. Not to mention almost certain misses for goal from set shots inside 40.

Our draw has been bad and our injuries and suspensions destabilising. This causes a lack of cohesion and uncertainty in the execution of the game plan. We can all go on and on about or recruiting and management over decades, but the here and now means we must find and develop more players and put all effort into refining who we have. There is no other option.

I don't really care about playing finals footy this year, as long as we develop our team. It will take a few weeks for our currently injured players to get back into top groove, and with a better draw later in the year I have a lot of optimism that we'll finish the year strongly. Stop with the despair people, this is the most positive direction the club has been heading for more than a decade!

 

[Brian Oblivion]

Well, this thread degenerated a bit. Have a look at the teams at the top of the ladder, they all have much more physically developed and stronger players than we do. They are able to withstand contest after contest for longer. Our only option is to play fast footy, they are the only cattle we have, and a lot of them haven't been able to play much, or any, football so far.

Battle and Stocker are physically strong defenders, Marshall and Steele in the mids and Membrey, Owens and Higgins up forward, but they aren't tall pack crashing players. All the rest are relatively slight for the positions they play. Crouch, Clarke, Wood, possibly Dow, will help in that regard when available. Our younger players need time to develop physically and to gain experience in competing at the highest level for an entire game.

In the meantime, we have to play "outside" type football as much as we can, but that requires great decision making and the ability to handball accurately and quickly, and to kick accurately into space. That has let us down incredibly badly every game at some stage. We have only got it right for relatively brief periods in each game. The turnovers are absolute killers, momentum, belief and sustained effort. Not to mention almost certain misses for goal from set shots inside 40.

Our draw has been bad and our injuries and suspensions destabilising. This causes a lack of cohesion and uncertainty in the execution of the game plan. We can all go on and on about or recruiting and management over decades, but the here and now means we must find and develop more players and put all effort into refining who we have. There is no other option.

I don't really care about playing finals footy this year, as long as we develop our team. It will take a few weeks for our currently injured players to get back into top groove, and with a better draw later in the year I have a lot of optimism that we'll finish the year strongly. Stop with the despair people, this is the most positive direction the club has been heading for more than a decade!

Truely a great post.

 

[saintbill]

He's got plenty of speed. Especially over a short distance. Way more than someone like Cripps or Fyfe who he is compared to often.

He's just not a natrual accumulator

How do we know?

 

[saintbill]

Dow is untested, is he Gringo?
73 games!
I guess that's where we went wrong with Dan Hannebery. Picked him after only 200 games at the swans. Untested!

His sobriety was certainly untested!

 

[Saint Watto]

Truely a great post.

I second that.

 

[gringo2011]

Sanders would want to be far better than a "nice start" - cost them Pick 10 & 17 last year and this years 1st rounder to get him and a couple of late picks.

I reckon you'd be screaming for blood if we did that.

If already had the list I would have no problem. They can go hard at upgrading because their list is already stacked. They have the luxury of going for quality over quantity now. Some on the back of luck and a s**t AFL system.

 

[gringo2011]

Well, this thread degenerated a bit. Have a look at the teams at the top of the ladder, they all have much more physically developed and stronger players than we do. They are able to withstand contest after contest for longer. Our only option is to play fast footy, they are the only cattle we have, and a lot of them haven't been able to play much, or any, football so far.

Battle and Stocker are physically strong defenders, Marshall and Steele in the mids and Membrey, Owens and Higgins up forward, but they aren't tall pack crashing players. All the rest are relatively slight for the positions they play. Crouch, Clarke, Wood, possibly Dow, will help in that regard when available. Our younger players need time to develop physically and to gain experience in competing at the highest level for an entire game.

In the meantime, we have to play "outside" type football as much as we can, but that requires great decision making and the ability to handball accurately and quickly, and to kick accurately into space. That has let us down incredibly badly every game at some stage. We have only got it right for relatively brief periods in each game. The turnovers are absolute killers, momentum, belief and sustained effort. Not to mention almost certain misses for goal from set shots inside 40.

Our draw has been bad and our injuries and suspensions destabilising. This causes a lack of cohesion and uncertainty in the execution of the game plan. We can all go on and on about or recruiting and management over decades, but the here and now means we must find and develop more players and put all effort into refining who we have. There is no other option.

I don't really care about playing finals footy this year, as long as we develop our team. It will take a few weeks for our currently injured players to get back into top groove, and with a better draw later in the year I have a lot of optimism that we'll finish the year strongly. Stop with the despair people, this is the most positive direction the club has been heading for more than a decade!

We have to go in this direction for sure but it's still s**t that we are back to hoping that one day the sun might shine on us. 2024 looks write off at round 6. It's a big readjustment for most of us.

We need to keep injecting high end talent in. Youth is the best way to find it still. No-one wants to give away guns.

 

[gringo2011]

Wasn't he #1 for contested marks a few years back?

No idea

 

[LifestyleSaints]

We have to go in this direction for sure but it's still s**t that we are back to hoping that one day the sun might shine on us. 2024 looks write off at round 6. It's a big readjustment for most of us.

We need to keep injecting high end talent in. Youth is the best way to find it still. No-one wants to give away guns.

100% correct. With this in mind we should cash in a few players at the end of the year and turn them into FRDP's. Then take these FRDP's along with our own to the Draft. Keep adding gun youth to our core every year until at least Tassie come in and take the cream of the crop. Be open to trading Steele, Sinclair and Marshall if anyone is willing to give pick 12 or better. Once we have a solid core and we become a bona fide top 4 team then think about Free Agents