Autopsy Round 5, 2024: GWS v St.Kilda

[Diehard Saint]

We have to now transition away from that mindset, that was the thinking at the time Lyon was parachuted in, it was that binary thinking of we didn't rate Richo or Ratts but we are resolute in our belief that Lyon is better than both of them. Wind forward to now. Have we matured enough as a fan base to think deeper than that? Can we accept that we have our coach and we want him for the long tern, BUT!, the primary challenge is talent acquisition and I very much got the sense from many fans that they thought Ross was the answer to everything, that all of our young players on the list were going to automatically become stars because we had Ross the Boss, and because we had standards and becaue Ross Ross Ross.

He's good, he ain't that good, for example a lot of talk in the off season about Owens like he was Bont Mk2, the fact of the matter is we don't know what Owens ceiling is, he might be close to it, or he might be about to become Bont Mk2, point being some fans think he's already made it, they would be the fans that predicted us to go top 4 this year.

Just goes to show how bloody hard it is to build a premiership team.

I agree with what you wrote re this list but I am “still resolute in my belief that Lyon is better than both of them.”
Based on the record of the 3 of them I don’t see how anyone can dispute that.

But as I wrote previously that obviously is no guarantee of anything.
Of course the list needs work, but I know who I would rather have in charge. I really don’t believe anybody thought Ross was going to make a star out of every new player. What we did believe is that he was better placed than all our previous coaches to get the best from what we had, whether that be stars, promising players or GOPs.

No one is under any illusion that the current list is in any way a premiership list right now. Least of all Ross and his team.

 

[BrutThough]

If I’m going to knock max and the club. It’s that they prioritised his agility for a slower build time physically.

His brother looks very strong in comparison. Especially across his shoulders arms and chest.

How much do you think the shoulder impacted our plans for building this strength?

 

[TheJackal]

Ahhh see that’s where you are making a mistake.

I listed 3 games. Who’s to say we don’t win 1 or 2 of those games with a majority fit list?

Wood, Dow, Crouch, Howard, Henry, Clark, Webster + Butler severely underdone - you can't just take those best 22 players out of a team without feeling a lot of hurt.

I just wish we were like the filth, who last year won all of their close ones. Win all of those 'could go either way' type games and suddenly we are a top 4 team.

 

[Diehard Saint]

I’m clearly not objective, but I think it’s a bit rich for a team that is top of the ladder but just limps over the line by 1 point

Nah, it’s funny.
We would have stolen it.

 

[stavro#4]

How much do you think the shoulder impacted our plans for building this strength?

The opposite. I think it’s the only time he focused on building strength.

They have been adamant about maintaining his agility and not losing it to strength building. I’m not pretending I know more then them here or saying they are wrong.

But comparing Max to other KPF across the league. He lacks here

 

[pebblesofsand]

And that my dear internet friend is the starting question for the biggest dilemma in elite sport with such a large competition and relatively small talent pool. It's why middle of the ladder clubs are significantly disadvantaged in that regard, amongst all the challenges faced with talent aquasition, one of the biggest, but shhhh we can't talk about the elephant in the room, is the competition for talent with AFLs franchise clubs. Give yourself 3 uppercuts if you were one of the gullible fools to purchase a Tasmania membership. I call BS on the claim the solf over 100k memberships, the average football fan ain't that bright but can't see a die hard buying a membership to another club. Rant over.

Back on us.

As I say, I said it the moment Lyon returned, and while the fanboys went gah gah over the Messiah like his return was some type of guarantee we would finally win a second flag. Was asking at the time, what magic trick does Lyon have that no other coach has?, where is his magic wand that turns every recruit into an a GF type. Most saw that as an attack on Ross. Couldn't be further from my truth, I think he's a good enough coach, but I've always felt that coaching is only part of the jigsaw puzzle at out club, the other is patience, Lyon will possibly need as long as ten years to build a list capable of winning a flag.

The upshot if that is I have nevered wavered from my understanding that we are in rebuild mode and well short of the talent and experience needed to win flags, look at yesterday for example, just like in the final, it was boys against men, GWS were plying with us yesterday, so much so they nearly lost the game, but it was very obvious they felt and knew that have our measure, and by a considerable margin.

Have to keep going to national draft for a few more years yet is what I believe, and at least until Tasmania enter the comp so as to stockpile as much Talent as possible. We are still well short of the critical mass required.

So we're having a "rebuild" by doing what every club is doing - going to the draft with same amount of picks as everyone else, then doing a trade or two and picking up a few discards.

That's not a "rebuild" - that's normal year on year list management.

A rebuild is when you trade out Jack Steele, Rowan Marshall and Jack Sinclair for a bunch of top 10 picks, bottom out for 3 years, then get a couple priority picks from the AFL and then you hope like hell you've picked the right players.

 

[Cairnsman]

Ahhh see that’s where you are making a mistake.

I listed 3 games. Who’s to say we don’t win 1 or 2 of those games with a majority fit list?

And that's what's frustrating about the injury lost, it's not giving the coaches a good look at the list as well as giving a continual excuse. Be nice if the team out there could deliver closer to a 4 quarter effort though.

 

[StFly]

The opposite. I think it’s the only time he focused on building strength.

They have been adamant about maintaining his agility and not losing it to strength building. I’m not pretending I know more then them here or saying they are wrong.

But comparing Max to other KPF across the league. He lacks here

My belief is they're right to do this.

Game has gone well past a hit up forward and Plugger type forward, these days you need multiple efforts and strong presentations to make it. Ming is fine in so far as he gets to the contest, multiple of them despite our shizen entries and he still impacts the scoring line as a KPF does. It's the balance of that agility v strength v Ming himself, that is where the issue is, is that balance right at present? More than likely not, but frankly we don't need another Hammer straight lining it.

 

[stavro#4]

My belief is they're right to do this.

Game has gone well past a hit up forward and Plugger type forward, these days you need multiple efforts and strong presentations to make it. Ming is fine in so far as he gets to the contest, multiple of them despite our shizen entries and he still impacts the scoring line as a KPF does. It's the balance of that agility v strength v Ming himself, that is where the issue is, is that balance right at present? More than likely not, but frankly we don't need another Hammer straight lining it.

We don’t need him to mimic Caminiti and straight line contests.

But we need king to have another weapon outside his reach and agility.

Too often, if you can prevent his movement. He is done for in the contest or he has the sit and then can’t create room or protect the drop zone in a contest of strength.

It’s what makes his look really frustrating when he isn’t clunking the high ones.

Rooey always had his aerobic capacity. But he got to the point where he was an animal 1 on 1 in the battle of strength.

 

[BrutThough]

The opposite. I think it’s the only time he focused on building strength.

They have been adamant about maintaining his agility and not losing it to strength building. I’m not pretending I know more then them here or saying they are wrong.

But comparing Max to other KPF across the league. He lacks here

That makes sense. I am glad we have prioritised his agility. Just need to find a better balance now.

 

[stavro#4]

That makes sense. I am glad we have prioritised his agility. Just need to find a better balance now.

I’m sure there is a PT on this board that can weigh in. I can only assume they are expecting that development to come as he is more mature.

Just frustrating watching a ball come in and he can’t protect his position or create space in a strength.

That’s my knock on him.

Outside of that, we don’t win * all without max king now or in the future.

 

[Saints43]

And that's what's frustrating about the injury lost, it's not giving the coaches a good look at the list as well as giving a continual excuse. Be nice if the team out there could deliver closer to a 4 quarter effort though.

The inconsistency is inexplicable.

Also, here's almost half the team we put out on Saturday:

Games
55 Stocker
45 Wanganeen-Milera
52 Byrnes
35 Sharman
34 Owens
20 Caminiti
40 Windhager
28 Phillipou
4 Wilson

 

[Teflon]

The inconsistency is inexplicable.

Also, here's almost half the team we put out on Saturday:

Games
55 Stocker
45 Wanganeen-Milera
52 Byrnes
35 Sharman
34 Owens
20 Caminiti
40 Windhager
28 Phillipou
4 Wilson

Garcia 1

 

[littlecreatures]

Wood, Dow, Crouch, Howard, Henry, Clark, Webster + Butler severely underdone - you can't just take those best 22 players out of a team without feeling a lot of hurt.

I just wish we were like the filth, who last year won all of their close ones. Win all of those 'could go either way' type games and suddenly we are a top 4 team.

Don’t forgot Sincs, most important player, being half underdone too.

 

[tomjoad]

Ya watch Geelong today, and see Rhyce Stanley running around in his 200th, and you wonder. Sure, he’s not a star, but talk about a useful bit player! Play him 12-15 games a year. How we could have done with him. St Kilda needs bit players. A rebuild and a ‘play-the-kids’ thingo is not viable because the comp is just against it. Look at North Melbourne. And look at Sydney …it’s while culture built on bit players, ageing stars, scraps from here and there and united in a passionate unit. Unless we get another crack like the 2002 again, and I don’t see 2002 ever happening again for a Bulldogs, Saints or Roos team. Tassie? Yep. I am left guessing why Pou was picked every game last year, week-in, week-out. Now it seems, we are so depleted and without a reserves team , well I say, there are no replacements. I think St Kilda should look to the Sydney model.

For that to happen we would need to be gifted a comparable academy and catchment area.
AFL says "No"

 

[Premium]

Which goes back to our last grand finals during the first Lyon era, and my deep lying fear of his style.

You'll always be vulnerable if you keep scores close: vulnerable to luck, to goalkicking droughts or to oppo surges. I won't need to remind anyone of our history. It can work the other way too, but it's a risky strategy.

I absolutely think Lyon is the perfect coach for us at this point in our evolution in terms of installing culture, system, and discipline and we've progressed in light years since he came on board, but I daresay I hope we can find a compromise between solid defense and foot on throat attack.

We are far from a finished product but anything can happen this year with the teams so closely matched - GWS and Carlton have both been touted as contenders this year and we play GWS and absolutely put in a shocking performance and nearly steal the game in the end.

I still feel if we get it together we have the talent to really push for the top 4 , even though we have already lost 3 games.

Our goal kicking has been hopeless again but hopefully this can be fixed.
Our forward line needs Henry and a in form King and I feel we will win a few games by a big margin.

We are currently having to rely on kids in our 22 because of our injuries , once we get back Henry , Wood , Crouch , Clark , Howard , Dow , Webster it should take a bit of the work load and pressure off the kids.

 

[SteeleSaints]

I watched the replay this afternoon and have come to the realisation we are not that far away. With a bit of polish with our skills and quicker movement into our F50 we could improve significantly.

The way GWS rebounded out of defence with basically zero resistance was our biggest short fall.

We played into their hands with our slow ball movement into F50. Basically we allowed them time to flood back and tripple team Max. With the huge packs they also got away with chopping arms and tunnelling continually.

Sometimes you can only play as well as the opposition let you. But gees we played dumb footy, we really played into their strengths - intercept & rebound footy. Having said that their skills were two levels above ours.

 

[gringo2011]

We don’t need him to mimic Caminiti and straight line contests.

But we need king to have another weapon outside his reach and agility.

Too often, if you can prevent his movement. He is done for in the contest or he has the sit and then can’t create room or protect the drop zone in a contest of strength.

It’s what makes his look really frustrating when he isn’t clunking the high ones.

Rooey always had his aerobic capacity. But he got to the point where he was an animal 1 on 1 in the battle of strength.

King is heading for a Joe Daniher type of career. Frustrating because of injury and accuracy while young and probably gets it together in a better team with less pressure on him eventually. Both kind of mercurial but ordinary at set shots too.

 

[gringo2011]

I’m sure there is a PT on this board that can weigh in. I can only assume they are expecting that development to come as he is more mature.

Just frustrating watching a ball come in and he can’t protect his position or create space in a strength.

That’s my knock on him.

Outside of that, we don’t win * all without max king now or in the future.

He was more like a giant small forward than a KP in his TAC year. A lot of his goals were snaps or running on to loose balls and kicking on the run.

 

[Saints43]

King is heading for a Joe Daniher type of career. Frustrating because of injury and accuracy while young and probably gets it together in a better team with less pressure on him eventually. Both kind of mercurial but ordinary at set shots too.

As long as King never stares down the barrel of the camera and smile after kicking it out on the full like Joe I'll be just about happy with that.

 

[CursingFijian]

 

[sauce_head]

Exactly.
Marshalls individual stats are only ever half the story.

Often he has massive individual clearance stats- but we lose clearances as a team (particularly effective clearances) badly.

His 'grab the ball and hack it forward' clearances come at an opportunity cost to us.
We lose the opportunity for any of those ruck contests to have far more chance of being effective (via a ruck tap to a mid).

Marvelling at marshalls individual clearance and contested possession numbers in isolation is only looking at half of the equation.

If he does it 20 times a game then we set up for it. It’s still a win. You play to your own strengths, and Marshall is.

 

[Ricmel]

I still feel if we get it together we have the talent to really push for the top 4 , even though we have already lost 3 games.

The problem with Saints this year is the same problem we have had since 2011. The midfield.

When you put our best three mids - Steele, Crouch and Sinclair(?) up against GWS or Dees or Carlton or Swans or Brisbane or Port - it is just not a fair contest.

You can paper over that with committed defensive set up - something RTB has been good at all his coaching career but it will only get you so far. They have moved to strengthen the mids recently but still not seeing a Butters or Green or Petracca on the horizon.

I was one of many who advocated drafting Max King.I wonder what it would look like had we taken Rozee - there was a small group advocating for that.

Regardless, this year has to be a development year. Hit the draft again and try and use our war chest to get an A grade mid or two.

 

[stavro#4]

He was more like a giant small forward than a KP in his TAC year. A lot of his goals were snaps or running on to loose balls and kicking on the run.

The thing with King.

Is that his craft is good. He hits the right spots.

But right now he is a nearly player who goes through moments in games where he has a huge impact and then goes cold. (Or vice versa)

What we have seen through his career - is that when he gets hot. He wins games off his own boot and can do so in quarters.

When he is off - like yesterday. It’s like playing with 17.

So it’s completely justified to have a whack. But people are off base talking Sandy. Bagging him or wanting him traded.

 

[The Cobra]

View attachment 1959762

He is still underdeveloped physically but give him another 1 or 2 pre seasons and this kid will be a serious AFL footballer