Autopsy Round 4, 2024: Richmond v St.Kilda

[stfan]

Hahaha. Quality gag.

Did Owens do a job on Vlaustin?

Owens was awful in the first half. Good in the second.

 

[Joffaboy]

Just watched the second half. Was a very entertaining game to watch.
Lots of action and highlights by both teams.
Last quarter was finals like in intensity.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Ads734]

Look it’s about staying ahead of the ledger a good win against either port or Giants could do wonders. We know that with Ross we’re usually always in the game. So we just have to be on for one of them and who knows. I worry about Buckley and Taylor but back our defence in tbh.

 

[SteeleSaints]

Just watched the second half. Was a very entertaining game to watch.
Lots of action and highlights by both teams.
Last quarter was finals like in intensity.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

I'm a tough task master and expect or want a lot better from the Saints.

Im not criticising your statement, but I thought it was a very ordinary game total. To me it was two bottom 6 sides playing an ordinary brand of footy and that neither side really deserved the 4 points. Skill errors and poor kicking on goal meant for a low standard game. If they were playing anyone of the top 10 sides the Saints would have been smashed by 10 goals IMO.

We are dysfunctional in our F50 with most of the group poor kicks on goals or simply dont hit the score board enough. Our forwards to often want dump kicks long rather than making leads inside the F50 or create decent blocks for each other. Our midfield apart from WCE are by far the weakest in the competition. I dont believe we should be playing Nas and Bonner on the same line, neither can shut down an opponent. But again a lot of the above comes back to the availability of an entire list, we have never had it and it's looking like that trend will continue.

It's our team defence and coaching structures what keeps us in games, because we lack match winning talent right across the list. Although I enjoy watching our wins, pure footballing wise we are a rubbish team to watch.

 

[Jesuswasacarpenter]

And the thing that keeps not being mentioned is the Norwood food and wine festival was happening on the outside of the southern gate before during and after the match.where in Oz fo you get to experience that...the state government is sending $40 million on upgrading a footy ground in the Barossa valley for next year's gather round.
Buy tickets and come over next year, it's a fantastic weekend watching different teams play and chatting to strangers about all things footy, and life , I for one hope the saints are playing in either the Barossa or Mt. Barker

 

[bergholt]

Buy tickets and come over next year,

We tried but sold out too quickly - this is the annoying thing about having a cute suburban ground.

 

[Saintbloke]

I'm a tough task master and expect or want a lot better from the Saints.

Im not criticising your statement, but I thought it was a very ordinary game total. To me it was two bottom 6 sides playing an ordinary brand of footy and that neither side really deserved the 4 points. Skill errors and poor kicking on goal meant for a low standard game. If they were playing anyone of the top 10 sides the Saints would have been smashed by 10 goals IMO.

We are dysfunctional in our F50 with most of the group poor kicks on goals or simply dont hit the score board enough. Our forwards to often want dump kicks long rather than making leads inside the F50 or create decent blocks for each other. Our midfield apart from WCE are by far the weakest in the competition. I dont believe we should be playing Nas and Bonner on the same line, neither can shut down an opponent. But again a lot of the above comes back to the availability of an entire list, we have never had it and it's looking like that trend will continue.

It's our team defence and coaching structures what keeps us in games, because we lack match winning talent right across the list. Although I enjoy watching our wins, pure footballing wise we are a rubbish team to watch.

We haven't yet addressed the problem of last season, in not kicking enough goals, and the forward half does look disorganised again this season. The coaching staff need to do a lot of work on Owen's kicking style, and the positioning of the forwards when the ball comes in, is not good. As it was last season, the forwards seem reluctant to lead to the player coming into the forward half, or work hard to get front position- if you have no targets, then players up the ground will just bomb long.

 

[pebblesofsand]

We haven't yet addressed the problem of last season, in not kicking enough goals, and the forward half does look disorganised again this season. The coaching staff need to do a lot of work on Owen's kicking style, and the positioning of the forwards when the ball comes in, is not good. As it was last season, the forwards seem reluctant to lead to the player coming into the forward half, or work hard to get front position- if you have no targets, then players up the ground will just bomb long.

The thing that impressed me on the weekend was seeing King leading hard straight at the kicker and taking marks at full stretch with hands way out in front of his face. Impossible to stop without giving away a free kick.

Pity it was Ben and not Max.

 

[bergholt]

As it was last season, the forwards seem reluctant to lead to the player coming into the forward half, or work hard to get front position- if you have no targets, then players up the ground will just bomb long.

I think the forwards look fine when the ball comes in at decent pace. They look terrible when it’s slow and the defence has time to get back but so does every team. The midfield is the problem not the forward line.

 

[The Punter]

I've said it many times around here: Bolton found himself in the perfect situation by being drafted by Richmond. We were still at Seaford in 2017? Richmond were winning a flag, and Bolton was given time to develop (he played only 9 senior games his first two years). I think if we drafted him he'd be out of the league by now - our situation was not ideal for him to develop.

He was BOG on Sunday by a clear way IMO.

 

[Joffaboy]

I'm a tough task master and expect or want a lot better from the Saints.

Im not criticising your statement, but I thought it was a very ordinary game total. To me it was two bottom 6 sides playing an ordinary brand of footy and that neither side really deserved the 4 points. Skill errors and poor kicking on goal meant for a low standard game. If they were playing anyone of the top 10 sides the Saints would have been smashed by 10 goals IMO.

We are dysfunctional in our F50 with most of the group poor kicks on goals or simply dont hit the score board enough. Our forwards to often want dump kicks long rather than making leads inside the F50 or create decent blocks for each other. Our midfield apart from WCE are by far the weakest in the competition. I dont believe we should be playing Nas and Bonner on the same line, neither can shut down an opponent. But again a lot of the above comes back to the availability of an entire list, we have never had it and it's looking like that trend will continue.

It's our team defence and coaching structures what keeps us in games, because we lack match winning talent right across the list. Although I enjoy watching our wins, pure footballing wise we are a rubbish team to watch.

No problems, you have a right to your views
I purposely waited 24 hours and then only watched the second half, because honestly I couldn't stomach the first. This in itself would skew my view.
However a couple of things. I don't know how you could call either team bottom six. Richmond beat Sydney and nearly beat Carlton. We beat Collingwood and nearly Geelong.
Neither team are bottom six.

Goal scoring, we were putrid in the first half but kicked 8 in the second, restricting Richmond to 4. In fact after qtr time restricting them to 5 goals in 3 qtrs.

I thought skills were fine on a sub standard ground especially in the second, pressure was on and the lack of space made it difficult for both teams.
Finally there was some spectacular play from both teams. The run down HTB by Rioli, the three step shuffle of Battle, the great defensive play by Nankervis and Wilkie, the sublime kicking of Bolton, the miracle goal of King and the clutch goal of Bonner.
My most enjoyable experience of the desperate last minutes was the absolute heroics of Wilson, drops the ball in the 50, two Tigers bearing down has the calmness and skill to knock the ball forward to a team mate saving a goal and only seconds later making a ferocious tackle inside 50 to earn a HTB.
God yes tonnes to work on, however I just watched dispassionately and it was a cracking second half.


On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[FQFjt]

Owens is a truly putrid set shot in every sense. To my mind, that is a very significiant reason why we should not be deploying him in a position which will result in forward 50 marks.

 

[luca77]

I'm a tough task master and expect or want a lot better from the Saints.

Im not criticising your statement, but I thought it was a very ordinary game total. To me it was two bottom 6 sides playing an ordinary brand of footy and that neither side really deserved the 4 points. Skill errors and poor kicking on goal meant for a low standard game. If they were playing anyone of the top 10 sides the Saints would have been smashed by 10 goals IMO.

We are dysfunctional in our F50 with most of the group poor kicks on goals or simply dont hit the score board enough. Our forwards to often want dump kicks long rather than making leads inside the F50 or create decent blocks for each other. Our midfield apart from WCE are by far the weakest in the competition. I dont believe we should be playing Nas and Bonner on the same line, neither can shut down an opponent. But again a lot of the above comes back to the availability of an entire list, we have never had it and it's looking like that trend will continue.

It's our team defence and coaching structures what keeps us in games, because we lack match winning talent right across the list. Although I enjoy watching our wins, pure footballing wise we are a rubbish team to watch.

I missed the first quarter, was on my way back home listening.
They were saying this on the radio too in Q1, but Richmond want a really fast, chaotic scrap. They've got top end skill in their team that lets them really hurt you, even when the game gets messy. They can make scrappy look good at times, they're that slick.

As much was we like to be a kicking team, we still lack top end talent to do that consistently really well - especially when things get scrappy. King was talking about the Hawks on the radio yesterday, going through their top talent, and saying they need another 5 first round picks on top of that to really challenge! Another 5! I was struggling to think of which first rounders we even had out there on the weekend.

What we've got is a cobbled together team that is in the game each week. Through the Richo/Ratten years, that seemed like too much to ask of the Saints and it was WAY more painful than what we've got now. So I'm grateful. Better is better.

Anyway, Henry, Clark, Dow, Windy, Wood will make us look better aesthetically. Until then, scraping out wins will do!

I'm not sure that having different expectations of a current team makes one more or less of a hard taskmaster, accepting of mediocrity etc. We've just got different ideas of what is realistic and different judgements of the players at hand imo. If we had a list like the Dogs, Dees and Port have got, I'd be expecting a hell of a lot more. Not to mention the Giants/Suns etc.

 

[Nutsngum]

No problems, you have a right to your views
I purposely waited 24 hours and then only watched the second half, because honestly I couldn't stomach the first. This in itself would skew my view.
However a couple of things. I don't know how you could call either team bottom six. Richmond beat Sydney and nearly beat Carlton. We beat Collingwood and nearly Geelong.
Neither team are bottom six.

Goal scoring, we were putrid in the first half but kicked 8 in the second, restricting Richmond to 4. In fact after qtr time restricting them to 5 goals in 3 qtrs.

I thought skills were fine on a sub standard ground especially in the second, pressure was on and the lack of space made it difficult for both teams.
Finally there was some spectacular play from both teams. The run down HTB by Rioli, the three step shuffle of Battle, the great defensive play by Nankervis and Wilkie, the sublime kicking of Bolton, the miracle goal of King and the clutch goal of Bonner.
My most enjoyable experience of the desperate last minutes was the absolute heroics of Wilson, drops the ball in the 50, two Tigers bearing down has the calmness and skill to knock the ball forward to a team mate saving a goal and only seconds later making a ferocious tackle inside 50 to earn a HTB.
God yes tonnes to work on, however I just watched dispassionately and it was a cracking second half.


On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

For an unwatchable game it sure had a pretty decent highlights package.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I've said it many times around here: Bolton found himself in the perfect situation by being drafted by Richmond. We were still at Seaford in 2017? Richmond were winning a flag, and Bolton was given time to develop (he played only 9 senior games his first two years). I think if we drafted him he'd be out of the league by now - our situation was not ideal for him to develop.

He was BOG on Sunday by a clear way IMO.

Bolton played the year he was drafted and was already pretty much doing as much as 19 1/2 year old Long with seniors experience.

Development is not a factor after one pre-season.
Normally if you take a guy from the VFL, not as a rookie, as a 2nd round pick, you'd think that he would be ready to go more so than an 18 year old.
Instead we got Long who "might" turn into something and didn't really.

Trout was still Recruiting and list manager then, and Libratore was our Victorian scout. Dismal performance by them both.
I can imagine someone from the dogs getting off the phone to Trout and literally rolling on the floor laughing as he said to his colleagues " I told him we were probably going to take Long as a second round pick ".

Draft 2016:
25 Ben Long
26 Brandon Parfitt
27 Zac Fisher
28 Patric Lipinski
29 Bolton

The only good thing is that we didn't draft him with the Rookie pick that was deserved, because then we wouldn't have got Roma.
( and if the Bulldogs had snuck in and grabbed him before us, then that was their folly ).

2016 AFL Draft prospects: Shai Bolton

Would you like this pacey half-forward at your club?

www.zerohanger.com

If he can add some size, consistency and ball winning ability to his game, he could work his way into the midfield later in his career, although he will appeal to recruiters as an exciting half-forward/ forward pocket player.

Staff writer for Zero Hanger nailed it. He's better than Trout and co.

 

[LifestyleSaints]

It's our team defence and coaching structures what keeps us in games, because we lack match winning talent right across the list. Although I enjoy watching our wins, pure footballing wise we are a rubbish team to watch.

I strongly disagree with this. When we have close to our full list to pick from we are one of the most quickest and slick sides going around. Our whole game is built on run and gun because we have the best rebounding running HB defenders in Sincs and Nas. When/if we get back to a full list we play the most exhilarating slingshot footy in the league.

 

[ScrappyDo]

I'm a tough task master and expect or want a lot better from the Saints.

Im not criticising your statement, but I thought it was a very ordinary game total. To me it was two bottom 6 sides playing an ordinary brand of footy and that neither side really deserved the 4 points. Skill errors and poor kicking on goal meant for a low standard game. If they were playing anyone of the top 10 sides the Saints would have been smashed by 10 goals IMO.

We are dysfunctional in our F50 with most of the group poor kicks on goals or simply dont hit the score board enough. Our forwards to often want dump kicks long rather than making leads inside the F50 or create decent blocks for each other. Our midfield apart from WCE are by far the weakest in the competition. I dont believe we should be playing Nas and Bonner on the same line, neither can shut down an opponent. But again a lot of the above comes back to the availability of an entire list, we have never had it and it's looking like that trend will continue.

It's our team defence and coaching structures what keeps us in games, because we lack match winning talent right across the list. Although I enjoy watching our wins, pure footballing wise we are a rubbish team to watch.

Case in point SS. The group that took the field was a circa bottom 6 team with a circa top 10 defense and coaching. We need some cattle back and some fit players to hit form.

We traded for Dow and Henry to give us a boost and both are injured.
Crouch and Wood both out for a long stint.
Bonner instead of Jimmy makes us too soft but there's no alternative at the moment.

The next man up theory only works when the next man is capable, whereas we are down to draftees.
The most important thing out of that game was the team's ability to rectify their issues mid game and power through for a hard fought win. That means a lot in our context.
Since we're a developing side, taking a forward step or learning a lesson each time is what its about, not yet so much the W/L which is the byproduct of.
Is it ugly? yes
Painful? Always
Are we progressing? Yes

 

[MightySaintas]

Just watched the second half. Was a very entertaining game to watch.
Lots of action and highlights by both teams.
Last quarter was finals like in intensity.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

inspired me to watch that 3rd qtr again. Very enjoyable. Great drive provided by Hill, Nas, Sincs, Steele, Jones and Battle.

 

[SteeleSaints]

I strongly disagree with this. When we have close to our full list to pick from we are one of the most quickest and slick sides going around. Our whole game is built on run and gun because we have the best rebounding running HB defenders in Sincs and Nas. When/if we get back to a full list we play the most exhilarating slingshot footy in the league.

Agree but when will that happen? Our history suggests a full and fit list will rarely occur. I said a few weeks ago that with a fully fit side we are a borderline top 4 side, but we never get that and dont have the list depth to fill those holes. So what we see NOW is where we are at and thats a bottom 6 side with the current availability. Its simply not realistic to believe we are going to get all these players back and not lose other players along the way.

Plus we currently are playing a number of players who are out of form and if we had a full list available they would be ommitted, but the reality is we dont! So we are forced to play kids who are not ready and out of form players which further highlights us being a struggling side.

Generally you can expect injuries as the season goes along - contact and fatigue wise but we have commenced the past few seasons with far too many players unavailable. Top sides can usually cope with one or two first 23 players out, but not as many as we have. For us to be a quality side something needs to change with our player training loads and injury management. Im sure the club would prefer things to be different, but given what RTB and Misson have quoted in the media they are not being honest and are trying to hide the real issues. The club have said they want to become a high energy quick running team and the new recruits all notice how much more running they do at the Saints. I simply believe in our effort to get to those running levels we are over loading players which leads to injuries.

Our consistent injuries have considerably changed my outlook on our chances this year. Its early in the season to be writing us off, but I have a pessimistic view of the season ahead. With our draw and injury/suspension list, I dont expect us to win more than 4-5 games leading into the round 15 bye. Thats leaves us with a max of 7 wins with 7 rounds to play. Its early days but we have a number of long term injuries and even then players take weeks to get up to pre injury levels. Butler is the perfect case in question. So Im projecting the injuries/suspensions have snuffed our season hopes of playing finals.

We will get a number of games into the kids so its not all doom and gloom, but footy is really about playing finals and unfortunately I dont see that this year.

 

[The Punter]

Agree but when will that happen? Our history suggests a full and fit list will rarely occur. I said a few weeks ago that with a fully fit side we are a borderline top 4 side, but we never get that and dont have the list depth to fill those holes. So what we see NOW is where we are at and thats a bottom 6 side with the current availability. Its simply not realistic to believe we are going to get all these players back and not lose other players along the way.

Plus we currently are playing a number of players who are out of form and if we had a full list available they would be ommitted, but the reality is we dont! So we are forced to play kids who are not ready and out of form players which further highlights us being a struggling side.

Generally you can expect injuries as the season goes along - contact and fatigue wise but we have commenced the past few seasons with far too many players unavailable. Top sides can usually cope with one or two first 23 players out, but not as many as we have. For us to be a quality side something needs to change with our player training loads and injury management. Im sure the club would prefer things to be different, but given what RTB and Misson have quoted in the media they are not being honest and are trying to hide the real issues. The club have said they want to become a high energy quick running team and the new recruits all notice how much more running they do at the Saints. I simply believe in our effort to get to those running levels we are over loading players too quickly which leads to injuries.

Our consistent injuries have considerably changed my outlook on our chances this year. Its early in the season to be writing us off, but I have a pessimistic view of the season ahead. With our draw and injury/suspension list, I dont expect us to win more than 4-5 games leading into the round 15 bye. Thats leaves us with a max of 7 wins with 7 rounds to play. Its early days but we have a number of long term injuries and even then players take weeks to get up to pre injury levels. Butler is the perfect case in question. So Im projecting the injuries/suspensions have snuffed our season hopes of playing finals.

We will get a number of games into the kids so its not all doom and gloom, but footy is really about playing finals and unfortunately I dont see that this year.

Happy for you to name the players out of form so we get an idea of who you are talking about.

Also worth mentioning that where as a few years ago those depth players would have been your Dean Kent/Matt Parker types, now they are kids with potential, which is a better position to be in. For many, many years we play games where we were the older team but the other team had more games experience, which is not where you want to be. That has flipped. The first seven weeks of the season are a <redacted> show from a fixture standpoint, but we've beaten the reigning premiers already and did so very nicely indeed.

I still think we can beat anyone on any given day. But not if we serve up what we did in the first quarter on Sunday.

 

[SteeleSaints]

Happy for you to name the players out of form so we get an idea of who you are talking about.

Also worth mentioning that where as a few years ago those depth players would have been your Dean Kent/Matt Parker types, now they are kids with potential, which is a better position to be in. For many, many years we play games where we were the older team but the other team had more games experience, which is not where you want to be. That has flipped. The first seven weeks of the season are a <redacted> show from a fixture standpoint, but we've beaten the reigning premiers already and did so very nicely indeed.

I still think we can beat anyone on any given day. But not if we serve up what we did in the first quarter on Sunday.

Our midfield apart from Steele and Marshall are sub standard. Goal kicking our forwards are all struggling and too many are not troubling the score board at all. I seriously dont rate Bonner defensively he is a liability, Sharman and Jones are just going. Membrey is dropping marks and fumbling balls he never has in the past. Admittedly Members wouldnt be replaced but he is not his best self at present.

Collard and Hastie should have never been selected in their games they are not ready.

I agree re beating anyone when/if we EVER have a full list playing and in form?

 

[Parkysp]

"Collard and Hastie should have never been selected in their games they are not ready."

Who in place of Collard and Hastie?

Arie, Garcia, Hotton, McLennan, Keeler, O'Connell?

Tom Campbell

38

Tom Campbell

Age

32

Ht

201cm

Wt

108kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.1

2star

K

4.2

2star

HB

4.8

3star

CL

1.6

4star

HO

17.0

5star

D

5.0

1star

K

3.0

1star

HB

2.0

1star

CL

1.0

3star

HO

2.0

5star

D

7.2

2star

K

4.2

2star

HB

3.0

3star

CL

1.2

4star

HO

13.2

5star

, Allison?

AFL Squad

Official AFL Website of the St Kilda Football Club

www.saints.com.au

They've played those two kids ahead of the 6 kids I've listed because there were literally no other senior players available to play due to injury or suspension. You can quibble on those two over the others of course but did you want us to go in with 21 players instead?

 

[TheNewEnsign]

Looks a lot like he's playing within himself ATM, which is understandable given his history. I'm just glad he's not injured right now.

Don't get me wrong, I wish him all the best, but AFL history is littered with players who just weren't the same every again after injury (Cooney comes to immediate mind, plus Gresh's total loss of kicking penetration).

I agree that he looks like he's really holding back from 100% full pace for worry about another injury. It's really harsh but the guy has played like 30 games in the last four years, even if he gets himself right and totally confident to push himself 100% by season's end he is almost 30 years old already.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Don't get me wrong, I wish him all the best, but AFL history is littered with players who just weren't the same every again after injury (Cooney comes to immediate mind, plus Gresh's total loss of kicking penetration).

I agree that he looks like he's really holding back from 100% full pace for worry about another injury. It's really harsh but the guy has played like 30 games in the last four years, even if he gets himself right and totally confident to push himself 100% by season's end he is almost 30 years old already.

I don't really care either way. So long as he holds together for another 6 weeks it's job done IMHO.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Agree but when will that happen? Our history suggests a full and fit list will rarely occur. I said a few weeks ago that with a fully fit side we are a borderline top 4 side, but we never get that and dont have the list depth to fill those holes. So what we see NOW is where we are at and thats a bottom 6 side with the current availability. Its simply not realistic to believe we are going to get all these players back and not lose other players along the way.

Plus we currently are playing a number of players who are out of form and if we had a full list available they would be ommitted, but the reality is we dont! So we are forced to play kids who are not ready and out of form players which further highlights us being a struggling side.

Generally you can expect injuries as the season goes along - contact and fatigue wise but we have commenced the past few seasons with far too many players unavailable. Top sides can usually cope with one or two first 23 players out, but not as many as we have. For us to be a quality side something needs to change with our player training loads and injury management. Im sure the club would prefer things to be different, but given what RTB and Misson have quoted in the media they are not being honest and are trying to hide the real issues. The club have said they want to become a high energy quick running team and the new recruits all notice how much more running they do at the Saints. I simply believe in our effort to get to those running levels we are over loading players which leads to injuries.

Our consistent injuries have considerably changed my outlook on our chances this year. Its early in the season to be writing us off, but I have a pessimistic view of the season ahead. With our draw and injury/suspension list, I dont expect us to win more than 4-5 games leading into the round 15 bye. Thats leaves us with a max of 7 wins with 7 rounds to play. Its early days but we have a number of long term injuries and even then players take weeks to get up to pre injury levels. Butler is the perfect case in question. So Im projecting the injuries/suspensions have snuffed our season hopes of playing finals.

We will get a number of games into the kids so its not all doom and gloom, but footy is really about playing finals and unfortunately I dont see that this year.

I think you're looking at this issue in too small a context.
Starting with a good group of mid paced but high endurance runners RTB has decided to add some toe which is reflected in all this season's acquisitions baring Bonner and Ari who were both free hits, them adding long kicking which we also lacked.
When in a year or two we are able to field a critical mass of elite runners it will put the bulk of our players very literally 2 steps ahead of the oppo, increasing in the latter part of the game. In a game of percentages that's an advantage of a few percent.
The run and gun style relies on players being able to gain space, which we can't do yet as our ability to win clearances is so poor that the rest of the team has to check their man too closely.
RTB is clearly trying to embed the style of play whilst the evolution of the list takes place. As the clearance winning ability gains some hold and quicker players feed into the 22 then the game style will grow legs and become less taxing.

Injuries are part and parcel of the game and many a premiership has been won or lost on a lucky (or unlucky) run. Right now it really doesn't matter since we're not in contention anyway. In fact it only helps to get more games into those we need to develop.
If there is an anonymously high number of soft tissue problems (which ATM there is not) then it will 100% be identified and addressed.

Our list demographic points to another 2-4 years before we start to lose key players to retirement. That's the timeframe to get both list and style humming and snag a GF appearance. From there you get access to better traded-ins and FA's but the draft focus now is to keep us sustained for the 7 years after that.

TLR. relax and enjoy.