Rumour Busted Shiel a done deal.

[Red Black and Blue]

I hear you & yes, if that's about right, very happy.

Not that Essendon are alone with this problem, but they have a several young players that are going to need to get paid in coming years. Tying up large chunks of salary cap in any player, especially a mid, just isn't & cant be part of the plan going forward. Long term deals where possible on reasonable money with the buy-in of ultimate success is the approach clubs should be taking.

Not an issue, same reason why Shiel signed for less. Post football connections are worth immensely more than a couple of hundred thousand now.

 

[Holy Rioli]

This is where you ****** up. No chance in hell we replicate our finishing position of this year.

Every chance you do - it was a very even top 12 last year, add Brisbane to the mix this year and who knows.

 

[Holy Rioli]

He's also suggested the entire Hawkes fanbase were delusional in their pre trade assessment on the value of Butron.

Go easy.

I'm not one to speak for others like you. I simply put together an objective data driven points total outlining Wingards & Shiels trade costs.

 

[Virgin Dog]

I hear you & yes, if that's about right, very happy.

Not that Essendon are alone with this problem, but they have a several young players that are going to need to get paid in coming years. Tying up large chunks of salary cap in any player, especially a mid, just isn't & cant be part of the plan going forward. Long term deals where possible on reasonable money with the buy-in of ultimate success is the approach clubs should be taking.

Yeah that's a problem we'll be facing. Dogs have a ton of cap room right now due to our age profile, but we also have Bont, Macrae, Dunkley, Williams and Daniel all around the same age, where our core of our midfield are all basically <23. Will be a cap squeeze at some point, and once we've prioritised the truly elite guys (or ones on their way) like Bont, Macrae, Richards, etc. it's going to be hard to justify large wages for all our mids. The spine is where you really need to splash the cash, and right now our spine are all sub-23 year olds (Naughton, Cordy, English, Schache, Boyd) who will all be costing us some decent cash.

I agree with you, in that unless a team is almost entirely devoid of decent quality midfielders (Carlton, Gold Coast, Saints) you just can't be splashing huge money on these free agents. Shiel at 750k-800k is a bargain, while also being responsible cap management. Hurley, for example, is obviously on a massive pay right now too (given the Dogs chased him hard a couple years ago with promises of 800k+ before the cap increase) so throwing ~900k like some other clubs would likely have been offering for Shiel could have meant that someone like Francis slips through the cracks later on when a better offer is made that Essendon can't match, since Daniher and Fantasia are both slightly older A-grade talents that will also be demanding good wages in the long term

 

[Bombfire]

I hear you & yes, if that's about right, very happy.

Not that Essendon are alone with this problem, but they have a several young players that are going to need to get paid in coming years. Tying up large chunks of salary cap in any player, especially a mid, just isn't & cant be part of the plan going forward. Long term deals where possible on reasonable money with the buy-in of ultimate success is the approach clubs should be taking.

Let me add that Essendon did not ship out a player like Burton to acquire Shiel.
If Shiel helps the club get up the ladder as we expect, those several young players that need to be paid will be more inclined to play with a club that’s building a formidable list, in full knowledge they’ll be looked after.
Unlike what’s now happened at Hawthorn where they have left a player devastated after shipping him out, and acquired a player devastated to have been forced to move to the Hawks.
Clearly the Hawks went into desperation overdrive mode after Dylan gave them the bad news.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Every chance you do - it was a very even top 12 last year, add Brisbane to the mix this year and who knows.

We have the most stable list in years. No one entering twilight years where a significant drop is expected vast majority of the 22 entering years where significant improvement takes place. We aren’t reliant on any position or individual to be strong. Plus a number of teams that finished above us are moving from the above position to less stable ones. It would defy everything we know to be true in football for us to stagnate.

 

[Bombfire]

We have the most stable list in years. No one entering twilight years where a significant drop is expected vast majority of the 22 entering years where significant improvement takes place. We aren’t reliant on any position or individual to be strong. Plus a number of teams that finished above us are moving from the above position to less stable ones. It would defy everything we know to be true in football for us to stagnate.

All of the points you make are good ones, and no doubt they did not escape Dylan, as he contemplated the Essendon list and compared it to say, the ageing Hawthorn list.

 

[Andronicus]

I'm not one to speak for others like you. I simply put together an objective data driven points total outlining Wingards & Shiels trade costs.

Hawkes fans were very insistent that 19 for Birton was a steal, and he was going to be a great long term player. Do you agree?

 

[Holy Rioli]

Hawkes fans were very insistent that 19 for Birton was a steal, and he was going to be a great long term player. Do you agree?

I think he was well worth the pick 19 investment we made in him. But the club decided that the 2019 1st rounder was worth more than Burton, so opted to use him as part of the trade package instead of our future 1st.

 

[Bombfire]

Glad we paid up for this.

 

[Andronicus]

I think he was well worth the pick 19 investment we made in him. But the club decided that the 2019 1st rounder was worth more than Burton, so opted to use him as part of the trade package instead of our future 1st.

Ok.

When does output determine the value of a player, and when is it left to arbitrary points values?

I am fairly sure I already know the answer, but I'll see if you can suggest something surprising.

 

[Holy Rioli]

Ok.

When does output determine the value of a player, and when is it left to arbitrary points values?

I am fairly sure I already know the answer, but I'll see if you can suggest something surprising.

I think I explained it pretty well in my previous post. There are also other factors involved here, the club might have been concerned with a go home factor in the future, concerned that culturally his ego might have been an issue etc. Might have been concerned that he wasn't going to develop the tank required to play midfield/wing and that his ceiling might not be much more than demonstrated in his first full season. Whatever the reason, the club decided the 2019 1st rounder was worth more than Burton.

 

[Andronicus]

I think I explained it pretty well in my previous post. There are also other factors involved here, the club might have been concerned with a go home factor in the future, concerned that culturally his ego might have been an issue etc. Might have been concerned that he wasn't going to develop the tank required to play midfield/wing and that his ceiling might not be much more than demonstrated in his first full season. Whatever the reason, the club decided the 2019 1st rounder was worth more than Burton.

You really haven't been very clear.

You are claiming points values when they simply are not there to claim.

Once a player is in the system they do not have a draft pick points value.

Putting it simply for you. Does Ryan Bruton = Blaine Boekhurst?

 

[Holy Rioli]

You really haven't been very clear.

You are claiming points values when they simply are not there to claim.

Once a player is in the system they do not have a draft pick points value.

Putting it simply for you. Does Ryan Bruton = Blaine Boekhurst?

What does Blaine Boekhurst have to do with this? We either could have put Burton on the table or our 2019 1st rounder. Odds are our 2019 1st rounder will be a pick in the teens, yet we rated this pick more than Burton. So again to repeat myself I think it is fair that he's valued at his original draft position, considering we rate a future 1st rounder more than Burton.

 

[Bombfire]

What does Blaine Boekhurst have to do with this? We either could have put Burton on the table or our 2019 1st rounder. Odds are our 2019 1st rounder will be a pick in the teens, yet we rated this pick more than Burton. So again to repeat myself I think it is fair that he's valued at his original draft position, considering we rate a future 1st rounder more than Burton.

It basically confirms the ineptitude of the club to be that desperate to land a big fish, and any big fish they could get their hands on after Dylan gave them the bad news.
You won't convince anyone else but a few blind Hawthorn tragics that a player selected at pick 19, 192 cm, 95 kgs now 22 years old, with 50 games to his name and banging on the AA door all but one season ago, is somehow worth less than a future round 1 pick. Not a top ten pick, but a pick in the teens, just like Burts.
As for retaining that pick for Cogs, it's only a dream. Time to wake up.

 

[Andronicus]

What does Blaine Boekhurst have to do with this? We either could have put Burton on the table or our 2019 1st rounder. Odds are our 2019 1st rounder will be a pick in the teens, yet we rated this pick more than Burton. So again to repeat myself I think it is fair that he's valued at his original draft position, considering we rate a future 1st rounder more than Burton.

You used his original draft position to explain his points value. They were taken with the same pick.

You cant a sign a points value to Berton. Once a player is taken and have been in the system playing games, they are no longer worth any number of points.

 

[Holy Rioli]

It basically confirms the ineptitude of the club to be that desperate to land a big fish, and any big fish they could get their hands on after Dylan gave them the bad news.

As a club we traded what we thought was fair for Chad. We will be a better team next year with Chad in the team, compared to having Burton, Duursma & Tom Berry playing for us next year. I'm not sure how this display ineptitude. Just like you guys will be a better team next year with Shiel, instead of Caldwall and a 2019 1st rounder.

You won't convince anyone else but a few blind Hawthorn tragics that a player selected at pick 19, 192 cm, 95 kgs now 22 years old, with 50 games to his name and banging on the AA door all but one season ago, is somehow worth less than a future round 1 pick. Not a top ten pick, but a pick in the teens, just like Burts.

Again, I'm sure the club put some thought into this and came to the conclusion that the risk of go home factor, a problem ego, and concerns he won't develop an AFL standard midfielder/winger tank meant that they'd rather retain their 2019 1st.

As for retaining that pick for Cogs, it's only a dream. Time to wake up.

At no point did I say we were going to use our 2019 1st rounder on Cogs. If we get him it will be as an RFA with an offer the Giants decline to, or are unable to match. I very much doubt we'd go after him if we had to trade for him.

 

[Bombfire]

As a club we traded what we thought was fair for Chad. We will be a better team next year with Chad in the team, compared to having Burton, Duursma & Tom Berry playing for us next year. I'm not sure how this display ineptitude. Just like you guys will be a better team next year with Shiel, instead of Caldwall and a 2019 1st rounder.


Again, I'm sure the club put some thought into this and came to the conclusion that the risk of go home factor, a problem ego, and concerns he won't develop an AFL standard midfielder/winger tank meant that they'd rather retain their 2019 1st.


At no point did I say we were going to use our 2019 1st rounder on Cogs. If we get him it will be as an RFA with an offer the Giants decline to, or are unable to match. I very much doubt we'd go after him if we had to trade for him.

It displays ineptitude because you traded into a player not on need, but like I have already indicated, on availablity.
The prevailing view is that your midfield doesn't run deep so a player like Shiel was what you needed.
Just because he opted not to go to Hawthorn doesn't mean you turn around and get rid of a young gun and a first rounder to pick up a half forward flanker, part time release player like Wingerz.
Clarko and Wright panicked and succumbed to the fear of missing out on a name player, which they initially set out to land with Dylan.
As it turns out, with TOM going down, the weakness in your engine room is exacerbated.
I know a few Hawks out there who rue the decision to get rid of Burton and not participate in the first round of last years draft.
Surprised none of your co Hawks haven't jumped down your neck about Cogs, he's supposed to be joining his mate JOM with the help of that 2019 first rounder. I guess it's not happening which is a good thing in a way. Gets you back to using your first rounders for a change.

 

[Holy Rioli]

It displays ineptitude because you traded into a player not on need, but like I have already indicated, on availablity.
The prevailing view is that your midfield doesn't run deep so a player like Shiel was what you needed.
Just because he opted not to go to Hawthorn doesn't mean you turn around and get rid of a young gun and a first rounder to pick up a half forward flanker, part time release player like Wingerz.
Clarko and Wright panicked and succumbed to the fear of missing out on a name player, which they initially set out to land with Dylan.
As it turns out, with TOM going down, the weakness in your engine room is exacerbated.
I know a few Hawks out there who rue the decision to get rid of Burton and not participate in the first round of last years draft.
Surprised none of your co Hawks haven't jumped down your neck about Cogs, he's supposed to be joining his mate JOM with the help of that 2019 first rounder. I guess it's not happening which is a good thing in a way. Gets you back to using your first rounders for a change.

Oh wow that is hard to read, education clearly not a priority here.

As you already know but strongly deny because it doesn't suit your narrative, we walked away from the Shiel deal because we weren't prepared to part with 2 first round draft picks for any player. And if you watch some of Ports game in the 2nd half of 2018, you'll find that Wingard is more than handy in the midfield. Tore the tigers apart and was best on just as an example.

Tell me, what is a more dangerous Hawthorn team next year, one that has Burton and Duursma in it, or one that has Wingard in it? That is why we did the trade.

And regarding Cogs, I'm not sure you understood my point. I never said we would or wouldn't get him, I just said that if he came to us it would be as an RFA. Any trade in that situation would just be too costly.

 

[Andronicus]

Oh wow that is hard to read, education clearly not a priority here.

As you already know but strongly deny because it doesn't suit your narrative, we walked away from the Shiel deal

******* brilliant.

Tell me again how many points were used in each trade, then try to dig your way out of the s**t you have buried yourself in by denying burton and boekhurst dont equal the same value in your narrative.

And you try to call so.eone else uneducated?

 

[Bombfire]

Oh wow that is hard to read, education clearly not a priority here.

As you already know but strongly deny because it doesn't suit your narrative, we walked away from the Shiel deal because we weren't prepared to part with 2 first round draft picks for any player. And if you watch some of Ports game in the 2nd half of 2018, you'll find that Wingard is more than handy in the midfield. Tore the tigers apart and was best on just as an example.

Tell me, what is a more dangerous Hawthorn team next year, one that has Burton and Duursma in it, or one that has Wingard in it? That is why we did the trade.

And regarding Cogs, I'm not sure you understood my point. I never said we would or wouldn't get him, I just said that if he came to us it would be as an RFA. Any trade in that situation would just be too costly.

Oh - you must be another one of those Hawks that stick with the whimsical notion that Dylan Shiel had to ring Clarko to receive the awful news that he wouldn’t be picked. Gulp...
As for Wingerz, lifted his game to stay at Port, and was devastated to be given the flick. He’s not the midfielder you needed to take the heat off ToM and JaM, unfortunately it’s now all on JaM to get in there and it’s doubtful he can lift for the whole season.
It really is a perilous situation in the middle at Hawthorn and l don’t think you realise it.
Meanwhile, over at Essendon, we’re seeing great signs that a highly competitive midfield is evolving. Watch out for Andy McGrath this year, a first round selection who demonstrates the bona fides of actually using your draft picks and not squandering them on lazy players with some talent that are available, rather than what you need.

 

[Milanista28]

Hawkes fans still in denial I see.

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

Clarko and Wright panicked.

lost me right here. They just aren't the types of people who panic. Give them their dje, often with the Hawks their trades look better after a season or so. Vickery was the only real exception I can think of.

 

[faible]

By all (well many) accounts; Wingard has long been a favourite of Clarkson's. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that both Shiel and Wingard were on the wanted list for them, and when Shiel announced the Essendon move, Wingard became the main target.

I do think it's rather fanciful to suggest that Shiel called Clarkson to let him know he chose Essendon after Hawthorn had pulled out of the Shiel race. But hey, all the ITK Hawthorn posters are telling us it's true, so it must be true right?

 

[boncer34]

lost me right here. They just aren't the types of people who panic. Give them their dje, often with the Hawks their trades look better after a season or so. Vickery was the only real exception I can think of.

Didnt they take a dud pick 2 from you?