Autopsy Round 4, 2024 : Hawks get Pied

[FB19]

The second quarter was embarrassing that’s what we have to fix. Not to play 4 quarters no team does, but to minimise the damage especially from stoppage we were woeful.
Love that players unheralded or criticised played well today.
Mids - Meek great reeves going to find it hard to get back. Great to see newk turn it around. Worps ok nash poor mackenzie and Ward building. Hustwaite need a a full game.
Forward - Chol and ramsden competed well. Ginnivan good Moore and Hardwick sublime. Cmac really poor today unusual. Butler shame he needs to play wing or I think he’s done. Finn played a really strong game today I thought not his best tag but got involved and ok by foot.
Backs - Scrimshaw having a great year. Impey excellent today. Frost and Sicily good. Amon and D’Ambrosio ok. Weddle Mitchell not great.

 

[HawthornHawk]

Does anyone know how many centre bounces Ward was in for the first half and second half?

 

[matey]

With half the side under 50 games yesterday was a great game for the experience. It had a bit of a finals atmosphere, pressure, noise, boys knew they had to keep cracking in til the final siren ……. can’t come close to replicating that during training.

 

[Hawk Vision]

Have to say it’s the first time for a while I saw us play with real desire to win. We got angry as well which was good to see. When clarko came in he tried to draft competitors with a good balance of hardness. I feel we have plenty of these players, but we have plenty of softer ones that don’t really hate losing. We need to start making hard calls on these players this year, just look what happens when you put a hard nut like Hardwick in the forward line that does anything to win, vs a 6 ft+ player with talent but doesn’t have that inner competitive hardness. We all but win.

 

[Kanga Commando]

The kids will learn alot from this loss played well in the second half.

I hope they learn more from the first half also.

Our starts have been deplorable - have been for some time.

 

[StillAtLarge]

The Weddle missed mark has been over-egged on this forum. He had a momentary lapse off concentration when he became aware that another player was closing in on him. He often throws himself into aerial contests against much bigger bodies and wins them as often as he loses them. Just one of many unfortunate moments from different players that lost us the game. He will no doubt reflect on it as he appears to be something of a perfectionist. I doubt the club will make much of it. It is not as if he shirked a contest.

I don't think it's been overblown, imo it was a horrible moment but hey- every afl listed player either has or will have a contest in their career that they don't commit to. At least Weddle's had his one early in his career in a year in which we're not contending.
But agree the club won't focus on it, not like it's a trend from him. The kid is built like a rake and is normally brave as fu©k

 

[SSSSSS]

I am honestly interested. How was this information / graph generated? What were the parameters?
Agreed the 2 Chol misses hurt the numbers and the result. Did you do one for the Cat’s game? They were so good with their set shots.

More of this please

I don't do them myself. I don't have the Geelong game available - it was posted in the previous autopsy I believe and I'll have a look for it tonight but I think the expected score was about 77 to Geelong and Hawthorn 71 (compared to what happened in reality being 106 for Geelong and 70 for us).

https://twitter.com/AFLxScore?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

https://theafllab.wordpress.com/2021/03/24/introducing-aflxscore/ is the whitepaper explaining the formula.

 

[Toasted]

Have to say it’s the first time for a while I saw us play with real desire to win. We got angry as well which was good to see. When clarko came in he tried to draft competitors with a good balance of hardness. I feel we have plenty of these players, but we have plenty of softer ones that don’t really hate losing. We need to start making hard calls on these players this year, just look what happens when you put a hard nut like Hardwick in the forward line that does anything to win, vs a 6 ft+ player with talent but doesn’t have that inner competitive hardness. We all but win.

I was thinking the same thing at the ground. Hardwick going forward and being our best target/forward… I’m not sure if that’s credit to Hardwick or an indictment on the talls in the first half.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Ginnivan has stepped up his defensive game. 3 Tackles and 22 Pressure Acts,

Excuse my intrusion. I have been reading this thread waiting for a mention of Ginnivan. My name is mud on the Collingwood board and I am not even game to read the replies to my comments. I have been a critic of the Pies throwing away top draft picks on tiny players like Schultz when we really need a quality tall forward, a weakness certainly evident last night.

Ginnivan I thought really got under the skin of our defenders, including his good mate at the club Quaynor with whom he got in trouble over the tiktok video giving points to women etc. Last night, both the frees he got with which he kicked goals looked legitimate to me, even if he was likely to be treated favourably after the complaints and AFL reply during the week. His goal in the last quarter and his team lifting reaction I thought set the scene for a Hawk's comeback.

I imagine you now see some worth in Ginnivan. He is a cheeky, infectious sort of player, and you seem to have given him a role to travel up and down the ground.

Newcombe was strong and prolific through the ground while Hardwick really exposed an aging Howe for strength. Meek was good and Chol prominent even without lots of possessions.

You lost but your team gave it a real shake. Our supporters thought we had turned the corner last week, but you showed us we haven't. It was age and experience versus youth and you nearly won the battle. It's no consolation to you that Collingwood deserved to lose.

Good luck to you guys. I never did like Hawthorn after seeing them smash us at Waverley too many times back in your star studded team days, but I am sure you don't care about an old bugger's memories and are living for the moment with this team.

 

[rei154]

It’s really great to see your support of our young players but your argument when it comes to Cmac doesn’t hold up. He’s been lazy and not working hard or is really out of form. The footy world has changed, players with 20 games of experience are doing great things for their team coming off rookie lists and late draft selections so I don’t think 50 games is an excuse anymore. I could give you several examples of players impacting games at or around the same age with equal or less experience. Point is, he has done 3 pre seasons, he should be contributing. now the expectations are higher, and rightly so.

I don't disagree that the standards regarding him being three preseasons in and therefore we have higher standards for him, but the 20 games comment regarding other players is setting up our boys to fail in the eyes of supporters because the players your referring to aren't players coming in to predeveloped systems and aren't players with as much senior support around them.

We don't have the metrics that the club uses to judge how a player performs, so you might be right that he has been under performing, but I don't think that's the case so far this season.

 

[rei154]

I also found it somewhat cathartic to see Ward play well through the guts, and on several occasions burn of Crisp given that discussion was happening in another thread.

 

[SSSSSS]

With half the side under 50 games yesterday was a great game for the experience. It had a bit of a finals atmosphere, pressure, noise, boys knew they had to keep cracking in til the final siren ……. can’t come close to replicating that during training.

The boys looked absolutely shattered at the end like it was an elimination final.

Hopefully it drives them.

 

[kazzooka]

Connor MacDonald had a poor game today, but I'm a bit miffed at people calling for him to be dropped.

His three prior games this season were good, coming off a strong season last year.

He surely deserves to be backed and developed, especially considering he has shown more than most of the emerging group of Hawks.

Agree, MacDonald is passed the "has to perform to keep spot" position and is forgiven for a bad game here or there as he's proven that he can play 10 decent games in a row. He's best 22 now, 3 strikes apply.

 

[Hawker55]

More than guarantee Lewis carried injury through the first few rounds. He wasn’t moving as he does normally, he is a leading forward, his workrate is class. He is capable of a wrestle and contest at times but his best is on the move being mobile, crashing packs too when needed.

Yeah he's looked undercooked. As well I think we all thought Chol was recruited to be the stay at home forward freeing Lewis up to go up the ground - the way it's worked out is just the opposite. Chol's workrate is great and he's getting up the wings then running back and I think it's confusing Lewis as that's what he likes doing. They'll work it out.

 

[Hawker55]

I'm curious about your list of players with 20 games of experience who are consistent week in week out and do great things every game?

I can't think of any other than Nick Daicos.

 

[thehardway]

I've been in the "play Hardwick back" camp but after yesterday and with Shammy back we should leave him forward. He adds another dimension that we desperately need. A forward line of Chol, a fit Lewis, Hardwick, Ginnivan, Moore and Watson will be something to look forward to.

Also a shout out to Impey who I thought has been a bit underwhelming this year but was terrific yesterday.

Still a bit gutted by the loss as the boys need a win and sing the song. Just have to be patient as we're on the right track.

 

[kazzooka]

Ginnovan needs to be a bit more selfish at times and go for the kick he used to kick 50m goals with Collingwood instead he always thinks he needs to pass it mowadays. Good effort against the premiers maybe we get the first win next week? lol

If I was Ginnivan i would have been furious with Dylan Moore. Ginnivan 45 out slight angle but one that he can definetely kick, passes to Moore who is about 30 out but on a slightly harder angle still a very getable shot and a better position than Ginni was...yet Moore doesn't make the distance.

If you can kick the goal, do it. It's much harder to kick hit a short pass, have that player mark it under pressure and then have that player kick a goal. It's 3 moderately difficult tasks instead of 1.

 

[Lickmesocks]

Still pretty shattered this morning not to steal that one but plenty to like from yesterday.
Take a bow Frost and Meek.
Have never been a fan but Frost has had an amazing year so far - very dependable!
Meek just tried his absolute nuts off!

I’m with you.

Frosty has driven me nuts in the past with his errors, but his season so far has been unbelievable with his marking and spoiling on the last line.

 

[matey]

The boys looked absolutely shattered at the end like it was an elimination final.

Hopefully it drives them.

A great effort didn’t cut it for our boys …… had Newk and Weddle on their knees!

 

[cryptor]

The blame for the loss shouldn't be dumped on any individual's moment in the last quarter.

If there's blame then it sits squarely at the feet of the collective team performance in the first half.

If we can find a way to play more like the second half for longer in games then we'll be winning a lot of matches.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Well I have waited and digested this game before writing anything. I wanted to take everything into consideration before i came up with thoughts about it.

So here it is. First we had a tough game in the wet last week a real slog. I was pretty worried about us backing up this week. Then we copped all those injuries especially to our forward line. We were youngest side coming up against the premiers and old side. We also had a six day break compared to their 10 day break away from home. I was worried about our team synergy and leadership out there especially in the forward line with Breust, Lewis and Gunners missing.

I came into the first quarter with a fair bit of trepidation given our first qtrs this year. I thought we gave a good account of ourselves. Should have been closer had we taken some of our chances and not conceded at the siren. Lots of things to improve on but was hopeful because our second qtrs this year have been our best. I was thinking the unthinkable could be even lead at half time.

The way we started that second qtr made me feel like i was nostradamus. Yes we should lead by half time. Alas Collingwood ramped up the pressure and we just couldn't handle it. We lost our shape and structure across the ground and lost all composure. We also made some really dumb decisions with the ball in hand. I decided to put a hat on to hide all bald patches on my head after pulling my hair out. Extremely frustrating we just fell apart but not unreasonable given the age of the team. Still, I held out hope that the second half would be better that we wouldn't capitulate and show some grit and heart that I know this team possesses.

Start of the 3rd qtr Sammy says he will be moving Dimma forward. My immediate reaction s**t Elliots really going to get off the chain but it was the right thing to do. We needed to change something our forward line just wasn't working we needed someone out there that would provide the impetus and direct traffic. I couldn't have dreamed of the impact that Dimma would have. He was awesome. With every goal he kicked in that 3rd I could see the belief in the players grow at center bounce and throughout the ground. Josh ward was sensational. Its not just about getting the ball he absoutely laced his passes especially to Dimma. Showed that speed and line breaking grunt we needed. Like the players I started believe we could pull this off. It would be a sensational victory if we could. Would have been time for Darryl Braithwaite and horses again (maybe a new team anthem).

The fourth qtr Newk start to impose himself at the contest. He was trying to will us to victory like he has so many times before. I said here we go. We were still 4 goals down but we were coming. Sic and Scrimshaw were fort knox for the qtr and Seamus and weddle were playing really well defensively it's the best we had played defensively all year. We had Amon continue to drive us forward. That kick through the middle that suprised everyone and ended with a Moore goal was sensational and play of the day. I was sure we were going to win it from there. Alas we had chances the best chance was to Croc who had a game he would rather forget. He missed. Siren sounded to end the game and I was disappointed. Disappointed for the players and the coach they had left nothing in the tank. Meek was a leviathan in the Ruck and Ramsden showed what was to come in the future.

My heart filled with pride at that performance we could have easily raised the white flag but didn't and rallied to come home strong and should have won it in the end. Hopefully the players are not too disheartened and we can lift ourselves again another big game against a pretty good side in the gold coast at their home ground. We will need to be galvanised and strong to compete.

Lets go you mighty hawks

 

[RoughysMullet]

Well I have waited and digested this game before writing anything. I wanted to take everything into consideration before i came up with thoughts about it.

So here it is. First we had a tough game in the wet last week a real slog. I was pretty worried about us backing up this week. Then we copped all those injuries especially to our forward line. We were youngest side coming up against the premiers and old side. We also had a six day break compared to their 10 day break away from home. I was worried about our team synergy and leadership out there especially in the forward line with Breust, Lewis and Gunners missing.

I came into the first quarter with a fair bit of trepidation given our first qtrs this year. I thought we gave a good account of ourselves. Should have been closer had we taken some of our chances and not conceded at the siren. Lots of things to improve on but was hopeful because our second qtrs this year have been our best. I was thinking the unthinkable could be even lead at half time.

The way we started that second qtr made me feel like i was nostradamus. Yes we should lead by half time. Alas Collingwood ramped up the pressure and we just couldn't handle it. We lost our shape and structure across the ground and lost all composure. We also made some really dumb decisions with the ball in hand. I decided to put a hat on to hide all bald patches on my head after pulling my hair out. Extremely frustrating we just fell apart but not unreasonable given the age of the team. Still, I held out hope that the second half would be better that we wouldn't capitulate and show some grit and heart that I know this team possesses.

Start of the 3rd qtr Sammy says he will be moving Dimma forward. My immediate reaction s**t Elliots really going to get off the chain but it was the right thing to do. We needed to change something our forward line just wasn't working we needed someone out there that would provide the impetus and direct traffic. I couldn't have dreamed of the impact that Dimma would have. He was awesome. With every goal he kicked in that 3rd I could see the belief in the players grow at center bounce and throughout the ground. Josh ward was sensational. Its not just about getting the ball he absoutely laced his passes especially to Dimma. Showed that speed and line breaking grunt we needed. Like the players I started believe we could pull this off. It would be a sensational victory if we could. Would have been time for Darryl Braithwaite and horses again (maybe a new team anthem).

The fourth qtr Newk start to impose himself at the contest. He was trying to will us to victory like he has so many times before. I said here we go. We were still 4 goals down but we were coming. Sic and Scrimshaw were fort knox for the qtr and Seamus and weddle were playing really well defensively it's the best we had played defensively all year. We had Amon continue to drive us forward. That kick through the middle that suprised everyone and ended with a Moore goal was sensational and play of the day. I was sure we were going to win it from there. Alas we had chances the best chance was to Croc who had a game he would rather forget. He missed. Siren sounded to end the game and I was disappointed. Disappointed for the players and the coach they had left nothing in the tank. Meek was a leviathan in the Ruck and Ramsden showed what was to come in the future.

My heart filled with pride at that performance we could have easily raised the white flag but didn't and rallied to come home strong and should have won it in the end. Hopefully the players are not too disheartened and we can lift ourselves again another big game against a pretty good side in the gold coast at their home ground. We will need to be galvanised and strong to compete.

Lets go you mighty hawks

The 2nd half grit and determination reminded me of the great club we are - let’s hope we can carry that spirit into the rest of the season

 

[Brishawk]

Excuse my intrusion. I have been reading this thread waiting for a mention of Ginnivan. My name is mud on the Collingwood board and I am not even game to read the replies to my comments. I have been a critic of the Pies throwing away top draft picks on tiny players like Schultz when we really need a quality tall forward, a weakness certainly evident last night.

Ginnivan I thought really got under the skin of our defenders, including his good mate at the club Quaynor with whom he got in trouble over the tiktok video giving points to women etc. Last night, both the frees he got with which he kicked goals looked legitimate to me, even if he was likely to be treated favourably after the complaints and AFL reply during the week. His goal in the last quarter and his team lifting reaction I thought set the scene for a Hawk's comeback.

I imagine you now see some worth in Ginnivan. He is a cheeky, infectious sort of player, and you seem to have given him a role to travel up and down the ground.

Newcombe was strong and prolific through the ground while Hardwick really exposed an aging Howe for strength. Meek was good and Chol prominent even without lots of possessions.

You lost but your team gave it a real shake. Our supporters thought we had turned the corner last week, but you showed us we haven't. It was age and experience versus youth and you nearly won the battle. It's no consolation to you that Collingwood deserved to lose.

Good luck to you guys. I never did like Hawthorn after seeing them smash us at Waverley too many time back in your star studded team days, but I am sure you don't care about an old bugger's memories and are living for the moment with this team.

Thabks for the overservations. Ginni has been great for us. Really happy to have him on board.

 

[hawk for 37]

At last some fight.

It seemed to me that Tom Mitchell was pretty lippy and got under the skin of a few. It was the best thing that could of happened, as it certainly fired up Newcombe who returned to form by playing angry and looking to hurt TM if he had a chance. So good to see.

Who would of thought Frosty would become essential to the team the way he has. If he goes down with injury, we will be screwed.

Return to form of Sicily (who is still enemy no. 1 of the umps) was great. He can't touch anyone, but is fair game for the opposition as the umps will not give him anything. Amon and Impey's 2nd halves were what we needed to see from them. Along with Scrimshaw.

Forward, Hardwick's move was the catalyst and who would of thought giving a bit of space to a fwd and letting him lead up to the ball would be effective! He showed real fwd craft. Moore took the cue and played his best as well.

Meek. Where have you been? Great game by the big fella. Can't rest on his laurels with Witts as his next opponent. Needs to back it up now.

My other special mention goes to Ward. I put my hand up to say I have been critical of his performance but yesterday's effort restored my faith and to see him spot up Dimma, and run away from chasing opponents was great. More of that please.

Other mentions to Mackenzie, who is making a habit of great starts but fading, whole game effort now please. Ginnivan for upsetting his old mates while adding 2 goals, cameos by Massimo and Seamus were good also.

My negatives focus on Connor Mac and Weddle. Big fans of both but disappointing yesterday. Both had the opportunity to really affect the result and missed their moments. Connor might find a vest next week or a run in the 2's as both Harry and Hus haven't been given the opportunity he has. Big wraps pre-season have not amounted to much so far.

Weddle's best spot is still a mystery. Would like to see him have a run at CHF for a stint and have license to fly for his marks.

Think we will have to grit our teeth next week and suffer through another loss before hopefully things open up a bit with a better draw and returning players.

Finally, but most importantly, can we please stop the 20 mins each game where we just lose the plot and let the other team cash in.
My wife and dog would appreciate that.

 

[Brishawk]

Second half was great. Lets start next week just like that and see how we go. I think we are a shot against anyone playing like that. Must clean out the skills and decision making and stop putting ourselves under pressure.