Injury Russell your feathers - discuss all things high performance; injury lists, Marvel surface, curse from the gods and Andrew Russell

[Blue1980]

Considering we were 3 goals shy of a Grand Final last year could be a factor of players pushing themselves super hard over pre-season (competition for spots) to get back to prelim and make up for it.

Clearly Voss sees we're in the window and has been building us up to be like the Lions were in his 4GF in a row dynasty, hard running, physical and honest. Problem was back in Voss' day no interchange limits existed so certain susceptible players could be rested more frequently in shorter bursts when required. I'd imagine we'd see McGov, Martin, Saad, Cunners, Cerra and Marchbank being rotated more often particularly after numerous sprints to get a rub down and such.

I've said previously I'd be factoring footy IQ and physical resilience/genetics as priority factors for the bulk of future recruiting. For todays game is a grind and players like Diesel who were resilient physically with a huge IQ didn't need speed or size to dominate.

Back in Voss’s day interchange rotations were below 40 a game when they played those GFs. The interchange explosion didn’t happen until 2007/08.

There were no interchange limits back then but it was Malthouse and the pies who begun the interchange explosion later.

 

[BlueJet]

Um. Walsh has missed the start of the last two seasons. There is no kudos to hand around.

Every player cited Walsh as the hardest trainer this off-season (a few on camera). Where was the load mgmt given his back injury history.

It's probably more Walsh's dedication than anything else that explains his return. Maybe this third time around they gave him more time to be ready/fresh...is it innovation on the third try to sustain player durability?

I'd imagine that Walsh's dedication is a double-edged sword to some degree.
I've heard of him putting in plenty of work away from the club both in and out of the season, this can be beneficial when it comes to rehabbing injuries but also detrimental when it comes to adding additional wear & tear.
Ultimately, it's hard to know for certain.
I find your stance problematic however as you're seemingly crediting Walsh alone for his recovery whilst allocating blame exclusively to the sports science team.

 

[RedFury]

I have just calmed my farm. My comment was also light hearted like yours. Internet.

BTW, the argument, 'for all you know' also applies to anything you say on this forum. Not just my posts. It's a great way to discredit a poster's point of view but the trouble with it it pretty much discounts the original poster's views too. This is also light hearted.

I wasn't trying to discredit you, I mean you could be right, who knows? I was trying to make the point that the opposite scenario could also be true and I just don't think we have the strength of evidence to say either way.

Of course, people can point to all our other injures as evidence that something is not quite right, and that may be true, but many of our injuries can be explained by a combination of bad luck and injury-prone players.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

We're 5-1 and fitter than every team we play. What about this is the same as anything from the last 25 years.

We've got a better team than everyone else.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

So Wilson, Akuei, Weitering, Williams miss this week?

If it's the same as every year, we'll have most of our best players come the pointy end of the year

But happy to review it every Tuesday with you

We're just not learning our lesson. Intense preseason = broken down list by round 6.



Carlton session:Toughest pre-season session I’ve seen for while. Lots of old school one on one for the mids - 4Q game on modified minutes - high intensity : high quality. Great numbers on the track - apart from J Weit pretty much every other player available.

Independent view there from someone watching every club's preseason training.

I said at the time - why are we running such high intensity sessions in fricking January. It's a hard sport and a long season. We're expecting 9 months of maximum intensity?

That is moronic.

 

[BlueJet]

We're just not learning our lesson. Intense preseason = broken down list by round 6.



Carlton session:Toughest pre-season session I’ve seen for while. Lots of old school one on one for the mids - 4Q game on modified minutes - high intensity : high quality. Great numbers on the track - apart from J Weit pretty much every other player available.

Independent view there from someone watching every club's preseason training.

I said at the time - why are we running such high intensity sessions in fricking January. It's a hard sport and a long season. We're expecting 9 months of maximum intensity?

That is moronic.

Expert analysis brought to you by... David King?
Highlighting an individual tough training session.
6 soft tissue injuries, not great but not quite as cataclysmic as some would have you believe

 

[JustOneTime]

Expert analysis brought to you by... David King?

I get this point to an extent. But then its problematic isn't it. King is a recent AFL footballer and is a full time AFL media pundit. Reasonable qualifications. You question him but it is more you who don't have any valid qualifications to judge him. This is also in jest but it is also true.

Worth pointing out because everyone discredits everyone when it is completely hypocritical. AND very funny.

As windows1 pointed out. Their is an extended period of time (multiple seasons) where our club has been suffering above average injuries. This is a reasonable point. Then there is accountability. The Russell bit can be funny as he might not be 'responsible', but is probably accountable. I have not wanted him changed until this season where the risk is that we might fail this flag opportunity because of soft tissue injuries. I personally think it's lower risk to try someone new...but to my point above, I have as many qualifications as you do to comment.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

Expert analysis brought to you by... David King?
Highlighting an individual tough training session.
6 soft tissue injuries, not great but not quite as cataclysmic as some would have you believe

All the commentary coming from inside the club at the time and since backed this up but King also went and watched all clubs preseason sessions so he's as good a judge as any. Hasn't got an agenda either - he was being complementary.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

I get this point to an extent. But then its problematic isn't it. King is a recent AFL footballer and is a full time AFL media pundit. Reasonable qualifications. You question him but it is more you who don't have any valid qualifications to judge him. This is also in jest but it is also true.

Worth pointing out because everyone discredits everyone when it is completely hypocritical. AND very funny.

As windows1 pointed out. Their is an extended period of time (multiple seasons) where our club has been suffering above average injuries. This is a reasonable point. Then there is accountability. The Russell bit can be funny as he might not be 'responsible', but is probably accountable. I have not wanted him changed until this season where the risk is that we might fail this flag opportunity because of soft tissue injuries. I personally think it's lower risk to try someone new...but to my point above, I have as many qualifications as you do to comment.

We've got a great list manager. The recruiting side is good. Good CEO/President. The coach is great. The playing list is the best in the comp.

Our ability to keep our players on the park is the weak link in the chain.

 

[Arr0w]

We're just not learning our lesson. Intense preseason = broken down list by round 6.



Carlton session:Toughest pre-season session I’ve seen for while. Lots of old school one on one for the mids - 4Q game on modified minutes - high intensity : high quality. Great numbers on the track - apart from J Weit pretty much every other player available.

Independent view there from someone watching every club's preseason training.

I said at the time - why are we running such high intensity sessions in fricking January. It's a hard sport and a long season. We're expecting 9 months of maximum intensity?

That is moronic.

So the evidence you present, is one training session from David King, where he mentions a number of facets, none which are detriment leading into our season.

Nor does it mention training loads at any point, as King only witnessed one session

Toughest pre-season session I’ve seen for while. Lots of old school one on one for the mids - 4Q game on modified minutes - high intensity : high quality

I think you may have misinterpreted "toughest" which has nothing to do with overall workloads, and completely ignored, "high intensity, high quality"

if anything, it further justifies what others saw from multiple training sessions, that we were in for a strong year, rather than the results from meaningless practice matches

So, if this is the only evidence, that our entire preseason was the catalyst for our current injury numbers, then it's merely clutching.

Unless of course you have inside knowledge or evidence that each and every training session was at high intensity and high workloads

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

How would we judge Russell if Cuningham, Martin, Marchbank, Williams and Gov weren't on the list? Reckon they account for about 90% of our annual injuries.

 

[Coops93]

How would we judge Russell if Cuningham, Martin, Marchbank, Williams and Gov weren't on the list? Reckon they account for about 90% of our annual injuries.

I think people were expecting him to perform miracles and get injury prone players suddenly fit all the time. Due to what he was able to do with Burgoyne and O'Maera and their knees.

The difference between them and our lot though is ours aren't structurally dramatic injuries, they're soft tissue. Very different and a lot is down to individual scar tissue and preparation. Unfortunately they all have lots of soft tissue history and have had some queries about preparation have been made in the past. Not much Russell can do to fix that

 

[onesilop]

I think people were expecting him to perform miracles and get injury prone players suddenly fit all the time. Due to what he was able to do with Burgoyne and O'Maera and their knees.

Can add Charlie Curnow to that list.

 

[CarmenSandiego]

Didn't West Coast finally get a new high performance manager at the end of last year? Their injury list is now the healthiest its been in years. Sometimes change is good.

Russell hasn't been great for us, injuries are an above-average issue for us every single year since he came on. Sure, we have injury prone players - but what role does he play in keeping them on? I'm assuming the coaches and list management team seek him/his teams advice on whether we should keep them around for another year; and he obviously backs himself in to get them right, but alas, they just get injured again. If he said "nup, their bodies are cooked", we wouldn't re-sign them.

The argument that he did a stellar job at Hawthorn is pretty moot to me, Clarko did a stellar job too.. now look at him. Buttifant had success with the Pies and was known as the best in the business, then 2 years later he was absolutely awful for us. The industry changes a lot and faster than people think.

We seem to be running out games well, but we have a lot of players in the prime of their career now with 5-6 pre-seasons under their belt; they're at the level now. I don't think there's a huge difference in the league with fitness levels, everybody would hover around the same level bar 2-3 really poor teams imo. If a team runs over the top of another its generally because they have the momentum rather than fitness.

I'd probably give him another year after cutting Marchbank, Cuningham & maybe Martin and see what he can do. But it would not surprise me one bit if he's moved on if our injuries are still a huge problem next year.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

So the evidence you present, is one training session from David King, where he mentions a number of facets, none which are detriment leading into our season.

Nor does it mention training loads at any point, as King only witnessed one session

Toughest pre-season session I’ve seen for while. Lots of old school one on one for the mids - 4Q game on modified minutes - high intensity : high quality

I think you may have misinterpreted "toughest" which has nothing to do with overall workloads, and completely ignored, "high intensity, high quality"

if anything, it further justifies what others saw from multiple training sessions, that we were in for a strong year, rather than the results from meaningless practice matches

So, if this is the only evidence, that our entire preseason was the catalyst for our current injury numbers, then it's merely clutching.

Unless of course you have inside knowledge or evidence that each and every training session was at high intensity and high workloads

Seriously? I've misinterpreted the use of the word "toughest"? You're doing you own credibility no favours there.

 

[Arr0w]

Seriously? I've misinterpreted the use of the word "toughest"? You're doing you own credibility no favours there.

Feel comfortable with how I see where we are at, and given the only evidence you can provide is one training session by an outsider, I wouldn't be questioning other people's credibility, nor calling them dumb

 

[teagueyubeauty]

So you honestly think Kingy was at the only session that was ultra high intensity for the preseason in January….

I’ve been on the remove Russell side for 18 months + and nothing has changed this year to suggest I should change my thoughts.

Premiership clock is ticking….


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Aphrodite]

Play nice thanks guys!

 

[JustOneTime]

Is there enough information injury - wise season on season to say our team isnt elite in this area? The argument between camps is probably fighting over whether the team and Russell are adequate or not.

• Our coaching is good - elite
• Our players are elite
• Our list mgmt is good - elite
• Our Snr club mgmt is good - elite
• High Performance (Fitness/Conditioning expertise) - Adequate. Couldn't be elite given our club injury profile over seasons. Couldn't be elite as he has not solved the soft tissue injuries programmes for many of our players (if any).

There is an argument that Carlton should be looking for elite talent in this area.

And yes. This is only opinion based on seasons of frustration with: soft tissue injuries, bringing back players early (definitely in past with Russell at club), and load mgmt keeping players on park. I'd guess the bringin back players early and (Martin for indigenous round) leaving them on injured (Fisher/foot) alludes to Russell not being a strong enough personality when having to front the coach. Of course, just a forum opinion.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

Didn't West Coast finally get a new high performance manager at the end of last year? Their injury list is now the healthiest its been in years. Sometimes change is good.

Russell hasn't been great for us, injuries are an above-average issue for us every single year since he came on. Sure, we have injury prone players - but what role does he play in keeping them on? I'm assuming the coaches and list management team seek him/his teams advice on whether we should keep them around for another year; and he obviously backs himself in to get them right, but alas, they just get injured again. If he said "nup, their bodies are cooked", we wouldn't re-sign them.

The argument that he did a stellar job at Hawthorn is pretty moot to me, Clarko did a stellar job too.. now look at him. Buttifant had success with the Pies and was known as the best in the business, then 2 years later he was absolutely awful for us. The industry changes a lot and faster than people think.

We seem to be running out games well, but we have a lot of players in the prime of their career now with 5-6 pre-seasons under their belt; they're at the level now. I don't think there's a huge difference in the league with fitness levels, everybody would hover around the same level bar 2-3 really poor teams imo. If a team runs over the top of another its generally because they have the momentum rather than fitness.

I'd probably give him another year after cutting Marchbank, Cuningham & maybe Martin and see what he can do. But it would not surprise me one bit if he's moved on if our injuries are still a huge problem next year.

You've summed up what I've been saying - probably better than I've said it. The list is primed, ready to go and the bulk have been in the system so long there are very minimal gains to be made fitness-wise. We just had to nurse them to Round 1 and take it from there - as Geelong and others do. We didn't. That comes from Voss himself and players - not just David King's observation.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

Is there enough information injury - wise season on season to say our team isnt elite in this area? The argument between camps is probably fighting over whether the team and Russell are adequate or not.

• Our coaching is good - elite
• Our players are elite
• Our list mgmt is good - elite
• Our Snr club mgmt is good - elite
• High Performance (Fitness/Conditioning expertise) - Adequate. Couldn't be elite given our club injury profile over seasons. Couldnt be elite as he has not solved the soft tissue injuries programmes for many of our players (if any).

There is an argument that Carlton should be looking for elite talent in this area.

And yes. This is only opinion based on seasons of frustration with: soft tissue injuries, bringing back players early (definitely in past with Russell at club), and load mgmt keeping players on park. I'd guess the bringin back players early and (Martin for indigenous round) leaving them on injured (Fisher/foot) alludes to Russell not being a strong enough personality when having to front the coach. Of course, just a forum opinion.

Motlop did his toe, then hammy and has just done his hammy again and that's it - our prime small forward gone for half a season. Cunners missed most of a season until he worked out himself that Pilates helped his calf issues. Nobody outside the club has the ultimate proof but we can all see the end result on the injury list.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

Feel comfortable with how I see where we are at, and given the only evidence you can provide is one training session by an outsider, I wouldn't be questioning other people's credibility, nor calling them dumb

Would never call you dumb. Happy to talk shyte about Carlton to other Carlton people without name calling.

 

[JustOneTime]

Motlop did his toe, then hammy and has just done his hammy again and that's it - our prime small forward gone for half a season. Cunners missed most of a season until he worked out himself that Pilates helped his calf issues. Nobody outside the club has the ultimate proof but we can all see the end result on the injury list.

This may not be relevant but wasnt C Durdin out for some hamstring issues in 2023 too. More shoulder/knee but probably recovering from those did a hamstring (Carlton website article mentioned hamstring woes). That probably should be managed better in terms of recovery so a hamstring doesnt hit.

I wont mention the other Durdin as I dont really think he exists in real life.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

This may not be relevant but wasnt C Durdin out for some hamstring issues in 2023 too. More shoulder/knee but probably recovering from those did a hamstring (Carlton website article mentioned hamstring woes). That probably should be managed better in terms of recovery so a hamstring doesnt hit.

I wont mention the other Durdin as I dont really think he exists in real life.

Rumours of a suspension for S Durdin. I have no idea.

 

[Aphrodite]

I wont mention the other Durdin as I dont really think he exists in real life.

Named as an emergency.


Proof he exists …