Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)

[Mr Meow]

Martin losing finals 7 goals + assists from 6 finals at 1.2 per match average.

v

Dangerfield losing finals 14 goals + assists from 13 matches 1.1 per match average.


So similar level but Dusty ahead. But yep, shocking, Dusty down to just above Dangerfield levels in losing finals.


Now let's have a look at winning finals:


Martin 38 from 10 finals at 3.8 per match.

v

Dangerfield 27 from 13 finals at 2.1 per match.


That didn't seem to go so well for you Meow. Sorry mate.

Martin only had to play in 3 finals before the age of 26 i.e his peak.

Dangerfield by 26 had played in 7.

Then Martin has only played one final in his 30s (i.e past his peak) compared to 10 times for Dangerfield.

Comparing overall averages is silly when one has played loads of finals over a long career and one played most of them during their 4 year peak, in a dynasty side.

Obviously Martin's peak finals were strong, on the condition his side was a dominant force.

 

[Mr Meow]

You mean those 9 finals that won Richmond 3 flags where Dusty was BOG or near BOG 8 times(totally unprecedented as far as we know.) The same 9 finals where Dusty set all sorts of 21st century scoring records, while playing mainly midfield?

It must drive you crazy meow.

Of course this just happened cos Dusty was lucky enough for Dimma to nominate him as the one who got to do all the good stuff like win clearances and kick contested goals etc. All the easy stuff like that.

Which others would I mean?

It really is like talking to an Alzheimer's patient with you.

The fact that you of all people don't even know Martin was more of a forward in the 2019 and 2020 finals series is a little concerning.

He licked his lips when he saw overwhelmed sides in finals, correct. Once as a midfielder and twice as a half forward destroyer. He did it very well. In the other 5 finals series where there were elements of jeopardy, not so much.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Which others would I mean?

It really is like talking to an Alzheimer's patient with you.

The fact that you of all people don't even know Martin was more of a forward in the 2019 and 2020 finals series is a little concerning.

He licked his lips when he saw overwhelmed sides in finals, correct. Once as a midfielder and twice as a half forward destroyer. He did it very well. In the other 5 finals series where there were elements of jeopardy, not so much.

You mean to tell me that while Dusty was setting all those scoring records in the finals he dominated in 2019 and 2020 playing more as a forward, he averaged almost 13 contested possessions per final, and over 23 disposals + 4.5 clearances per whole final? This gets crazier and crazier. What "more of a forward" has ever done that before or since meow?

But surely if he relied on Richmond's dominance to create his goals and assists, he must have got on the end of plenty of uncontested balls to get soft goal opportunities. How many would you estimate were uncontested and therefore as a result of his team's dominance? I am sure it will all be in the highlights Meow. Must have been plenty put right on a platter for him given the Tigers were so dominant? Don't make me post them again Meow.

Must be just sheer weight of entries? Well, no, Richmond averaged just 10% more entries than their opposition in those games. But almost 100% more goals the Tigers scored than their opponents in those 9 games. 121 v 61. Where you would only expect around 10% extra goals from 10% more entries. So I wonder what on earth could have caused those extra approximately 54 goals to have been scored by Richmond? It sort of suggests one team's forward line was a lot more efficient at turning inside 50's into goals to me Meow. And I wonder who the chief damage doer was in terms of scoreboard impact?

None other than Dustin Q Martin, who scored or directly assisted 37 of those surplus 54 goals himself, quite apart from his 48 other score involvements, roughly half of which would have been goals.

Quite literally, the difference.

But you knew that already Meow, you were just wanting me to relive the glory yet again given the traumatic events at Punt Road in recent weeks. Don't think I don't appreciate it either.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Martin only had to play in 3 finals before the age of 26 i.e his peak.

Dangerfield by 26 had played in 7.

Then Martin has only played one final in his 30s (i.e past his peak) compared to 10 times for Dangerfield.

Comparing overall averages is silly when one has played loads of finals over a long career and one played most of them during their 4 year peak, in a dynasty side.

Obviously Martin's peak finals were strong, on the condition his side was a dominant force.

Maybe show us all their peak age finals side by side then Meow...

Jesus you know how to back yourself into a corner.

 

[Mr Meow]

Maybe show us all their peak age finals side by side then Meow...

Jesus you know how to back yourself into a corner.

One was in a dominant, premiership team for their 4 peak years and one wasn't. Which is my whole point - see Martin's performances outside of his 26-29 year old period. He needed his absolute peak years AND to be in the dominant side to be great in finals. Take either condition out and his finals have been poor.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

One was in a dominant, premiership team for their 4 peak years and one wasn't. Which is my whole point - see Martin's performances outside of his 26-29 year old period. He needed his absolute peak years AND to be in the dominant side to be great in finals. Take either condition out and his finals have been poor.

Dusty probably played one single final that didn't meet with reasonable expectations for where he was in his career or what preparation he had or the game. The 2015 EF v North when from memory he was heavily tagged. He has only played 4 finals outside 2017-20. In any event, he was not outright poor in all of these games at all. Noidnadroj showed you quite clearly early in this thread Dusty's losing finals performances more than stack up with your idol Gary Ablett Jnr's. From memory you had no answer to this then, just as you will have no answer to it now.

 

[Mr Meow]

Dusty probably played one single final that didn't meet with reasonable expectations for where he was in his career or what preparation he had or the game. The 2015 EF v North when from memory he was heavily tagged. He has only played 4 finals outside 2017-20. In any event, he was not outright poor in all of these games at all. Noidnadroj showed you quite clearly early in this thread Dusty's losing finals performances more than stack up with your idol Gary Ablett Jnr's. From memory you had no answer to this then, just as you will have no answer to it now.

That is hilarious that you're actually calling him in for help. Pathetic, but hilarious. It was a poor attempt at analysis regardless. Ablett's finals in his early and late days were better than Martin's. We are going to finish with Martin's only final in his 30s being the 2022 EF shamble and he did nothing of note finals wise until he was about 26 years old. Then when his side wasn't dominant he dropped off again.

 

[smasha]

Terrible game today.
Never understood the hype surrounding this bloke by Richmond fans.

Not even their best player yet alone a top 20 player in VFL/AFL history.

The bloke had an internal organ injury and his old man died recently.
Now you say he's no good?
Never change oppos.
3 Norm Smiths ,a Brownlow(when umpires have a long history against the Tigers,the reason KB never won a Brownlow).
Countless other awards.

 

[VicBased]

Sad to see an uninterested Dusty playing on Sunday.
It seems he has lost the "Want" to play.
Maybe retirement is just around the corner.

 

[Walshawk]

With his best behind him, we can clearly see that he is not the GOAT. Miles behind Leigh Matthew’s in a similar role. But still, what a career. A more apt thread title would be ‘Is he the Tigers GOAT’.

 

[Mr Meow]

With his best behind him, we can clearly see that he is not the GOAT. Miles behind Leigh Matthew’s in a similar role. But still, what a career. A more apt thread title would be ‘Is he the Tigers GOAT’.

Basically Richo level but he got to be in an all conquering side for a few years, and capitalised superbly during that stretch.

KB's finals excellence extended to a 27 match haul rather than 16 games. He had 7 different finals series where he had a match of 3 or more goals. Martin had 3 such finals series. KB's catalogue of strong finals was more impressive. Over 9000 disposals in his era, and almost 800 goals. Martin won't get close to such a combination.

 

[Xtreme]

Dusty still clearly the GOAT while everyone tries to find a reason to dismiss it.

 

[Tigers123]

Sad to see an uninterested Dusty playing on Sunday.
It seems he has lost the "Want" to play.
Maybe retirement is just around the corner.

walking it over the line up forward twice was abhorrent

 

[VicBased]

Basically Richo level but he got to be in an all conquering side for a few years, and capitalised superbly during that stretch.

KB's finals excellence extended to a 27 match haul rather than 16 games. He had 7 different finals series where he had a match of 3 or more goals. Martin had 3 such finals series. KB's catalogue of strong finals was more impressive. Over 9000 disposals in his era, and almost 800 goals. Martin won't get close to such a combination.

What we should remember though is that the people that Dusty is being compared to were of a different ilk.
The players of today are fitter and more footy savvy than their predecessors and would outrun and outwork the players of yesteryear.
Half time for the 50's and 60s players were going in for a smoke and sometimes a chug of beer.
Dusty is definitely the GOAT for Richmond.

 

[Mr Meow]

What we should remember though is that the people that Dusty is being compared to were of a different ilk.
The players of today are fitter and more footy savvy than their predecessors and would outrun and outwork the players of yesteryear.
Half time for the 50's and 60s players were going in for a smoke and sometimes a chug of beer.
Dusty is definitely the GOAT for Richmond.

Well yeah with the fitness/modern science time machine approach most modern champs would better their predecessors.

Most GOAT contenders would be from the most recent generation.

Comparing greatness to your contemporaries of the time is a better standard.

 

[VicBased]

Well yeah with the fitness/modern science time machine approach most modern champs would better their predecessors.

Most GOAT contenders would be from the most recent generation.

Comparing greatness to your contemporaries of the time is a better standard.

Sure, agree with you and that is why the GOAT argument is irrelevant.
We would have to layer it to GOAT of the decade or era.
I am happy to call Dusty the GOAT of the 2010's for Richmond.

 

[JackOutback]

Asked and answered: no. There's a new GOAT in town.

 

[nineteen eighty]

I've stayed out of this (largely) but Dangerfield doesn't belong in the conversation of great finals players. Dusty is in the discussion as the GOAT finals player. Danger has a tremendous H&A career and falls away sharply in finals.

And yes how good does Reid look? Surely he didn't play for the Falcons and have family down Torquay way? If so, look out West Coast...

 

[PhatBoy]

The bloke had an internal organ injury and his old man died recently.
Now you say he's no good?
Never change oppos.
3 Norm Smiths ,a Brownlow(when umpires have a long history against the Tigers,the reason KB never won a Brownlow).
Countless other awards.

I don’t even really have a stake in this fight anymore beyond occasionally reading it for some amusement but you preclude yourself from having any involvement in any discussion as soon as you use the word umpires. Your level of delusion about this is a real issue and basically stops you - if you ever WERE taken seriously which is highly debatable given your lack of coherent debate on virtually any issue - from being LISTENED to on any issue

 

[PhatBoy]

I've stayed out of this (largely) but Dangerfield doesn't belong in the conversation of great finals players. Dusty is in the discussion as the GOAT finals player. Danger has a tremendous H&A career and falls away sharply in finals.

And yes how good does Reid look? Surely he didn't play for the Falcons and have family down Torquay way? If so, look out West Coast...

Well not really. His disposal average actually goes up in finals and his goal average drops away from 1.02 to 0.92.

Considering all finals are played against ‘good’ opposition whereas home and away games include a sample against good and bad I would say his finals performances are pretty representative of his career in general rather than ‘falling away sharply.’ He has a Gary Ayres medal and was probably stiffed for a Norm Smith. He’s not in the Martin class I’m not claiming that at all but saying his finals performances fall away sharply is a blatant myth.

 

[Lunchtime]

Well not really. His disposal average actually goes up in finals and his goal average drops away from 1.02 to 0.92.

Considering all finals are played against ‘good’ opposition whereas home and away games include a sample against good and bad I would say his finals performances are pretty representative of his career in general rather than ‘falling away sharply.’ He has a Gary Ayres medal and was probably stiffed for a Norm Smith. He’s not in the Martin class I’m not claiming that at all but saying his finals performances fall away sharply is a blatant myth.

I think "falling away" in Finals is probably a bit harsh, I mean sure it doesn't match his output in H&A games but the decline or difference isn't by much. He is a good finals player without being magical like what Dustin Martin has done. He isnt in Martin's league when it comes to Finals footy and the impact generated but he js not too bad in Finals footy himself, he does have a Gary Ayres Award (player of the Finals) so he can't be that bad and I rate that award quite highly ...its the Brownlow medal for finals footy. Dusty has won 3 of those awards himself.

 

[My Tilly]

The bloke had an internal organ injury and his old man died recently.
Now you say he's no good?
Never change oppos.
3 Norm Smiths ,a Brownlow(when umpires have a long history against the Tigers,the reason KB never won a Brownlow).
Countless other awards.

He no longer has the players around feeding him the ball. This is why he looks average to say the least.
Of course, the Richmond faithful will use any excuse in the book for reasons why he looks an also-ran.

The greatest players ever kept up their level of dominance well into their 30's. Martin peaked for three years and he's never looked the same since.

 

[My Tilly]

Dusty still clearly the GOAT while everyone tries to find a reason to dismiss it.

You sound like Daisy Pearce who labelled Martin the greatest player to have ever play the game

 

[Xtreme]

You sound like Daisy Pearce who labelled Martin the greatest player to have ever play the game

He's GOAT of the AFL era at the very least.

 

[RUNVS]

You again forget Dusty's 2011 season, which if you are fair about it, was absolutely amazing for a 19-20yo mid-forward in a weak team.

His 2023 season was a strong season no matter how you try to spin it. 2021 he was almost without doubt poised to pounce when terminally injured in rd 16. He was actually playing very well that season, but such are the expectations on him people like you will somehow claim a guy averaging 16.62 player ratings is not having an elite season, which is completely laughable. If you disagree with that, then show me all the players who have averaged that player rating or higher and not had an elite season.

His 2011 season was so amazing he did not get an AA for it.