Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)

[Mr Meow]

Lol, when you start running with a narrative that is complimentary to Dusty then and only then will I get truly worried.

Who said I'm trying to worry you? There's no need to be suspicious.

The fact is Richmond started with 1 win from its first 7 games of 2023 and is now 1 win from its first 6 of 2024. Both times that amounts to "season over". Within those 13 games Martin missed 3 of them and collected just 5 coaches votes in total from the 10 games he did play.

Richmond 2023 onwards have their big games right out of the gate, there's no "saving your best for September". He had his chance to do that in 2022 but also failed there. Much like 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2018. He was outrageously good in 2019 and 2020 when it mattered but 2017 was his singular amazing overall season. Since 2020, the games just haven't been big enough for Martin to get motivated?

 

[The Dougster]

I’m sure he’ll turn out ok mate.

There's no doubting that

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Who said I'm trying to worry you? There's no need to be suspicious.

The fact is Richmond started with 1 win from its first 7 games of 2023 and is now 1 win from its first 6 of 2024. Both times that amounts to "season over". Within those 13 games Martin missed 3 of them and collected just 5 coaches votes in total from the 10 games he did play.

Richmond 2023 onwards have their big games right out of the gate, there's no "saving your best for September". He had his chance to do that in 2022 but also failed there. Much like 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2018. He was outrageously good in 2019 and 2020 when it mattered but 2017 was his singular amazing overall season. Since 2020, the games just haven't been big enough for Martin to get motivated?

You forgot Dusty's amazing 2011 season, his second when he averaged over 20 disposals and got 56 goals + assists, and if you think that is easy to do.....show us another 19-20yo that has done it. And the fact he finished 3rd in the Brownlow and Coaches votes 2016. And 7th in the 2015 Brownlow. And 6th, 4th, 6th, 7th in the player ratings in 2018, 2019, 2020 and 2021 respectively. And you also seemed to forget that he was the second top rated forward in 2023.

But that is ok, like Alanis Morisette, I'm here to remind you.

 

[Mr Meow]

You forgot Dusty's amazing 2011 season, his second when he averaged over 20 disposals and got 56 goals + assists, and if you think that is easy to do.....show us another 19-20yo that has done it. And the fact he finished 3rd in the Brownlow and Coaches votes 2016. And 7th in the 2015 Brownlow. And 6th, 4th, 6th, 7th in the player ratings in 2018, 2019, 2020 and 2021 respectively. And you also seemed to forget that he was the second top rated forward in 2023.

But that is ok, like Alanis Morisette, I'm here to remind you.

2016 stands out because it was the single season Martin has been excellent when his team was not the premier or the premiership favourite. Every other elite player I can think of has at least a few seasons like that, in that context.

You will defer to the AA squad of 44s but those seasons were not amazing. Last year he flew into the 44 on the back of great performances at the end of the season, when Richmond were done. Not impressive. Why not get off to a flyer and have your team in the running at round 7?

Nobody cares about Player Ratings.

Coaches votes wise, Martin has 5 seasons where he averaged 2.9+ coaches votes per game. A couple of them seriously bolstered by turning it on come finals time. That is his elite period.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

2016 stands out because it was the single season Martin has been excellent when his team was not the premier or the premiership favourite. Every other elite player I can think of has at least a few seasons like that, in that context.

You will defer to the AA squad of 44s but those seasons were not amazing. Last year he flew into the 44 on the back of great performances at the end of the season, when Richmond were done. Not impressive. Why not get off to a flyer and have your team in the running at round 7?

Nobody cares about Player Ratings.

Coaches votes wise, Martin has 5 seasons where he averaged 2.9+ coaches votes per game. A couple of them seriously bolstered by turning it on come finals time. That is his elite period.

You again forget Dusty's 2011 season, which if you are fair about it, was absolutely amazing for a 19-20yo mid-forward in a weak team.

His 2023 season was a strong season no matter how you try to spin it. 2021 he was almost without doubt poised to pounce when terminally injured in rd 16. He was actually playing very well that season, but such are the expectations on him people like you will somehow claim a guy averaging 16.62 player ratings is not having an elite season, which is completely laughable. If you disagree with that, then show me all the players who have averaged that player rating or higher and not had an elite season.

 

[Mr Meow]

You again forget Dusty's 2011 season, which if you are fair about it, was absolutely amazing for a 19-20yo mid-forward in a weak team.

His 2023 season was a strong season no matter how you try to spin it. 2021 he was almost without doubt poised to pounce when terminally injured in rd 16. He was actually playing very well that season, but such are the expectations on him people like you will somehow claim a guy averaging 16.62 player ratings is not having an elite season, which is completely laughable. If you disagree with that, then show me all the players who have averaged that player rating or higher and not had an elite season.

Dusty's 2011 was a strong season for a young player, yes. It stood out a lot from the year preceding it and the year that followed it, so it's not as if it just perfectly represented his younger years. 2015/2016 is when Martin actually started breaking out as a potential star.

2023 Martin got strong rapidly as the season approached its finale. He had something like less than 10 coaches votes to round 13. Too little, too late. Having the first 2/3 of the season as average and the last 1/3 of it as amazing isn't good enough for a club scrambling just to be in the finals mix.

NOBODY cares about Player Ratings. Stop trying to draw me into debates that you rely on them for.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Dusty's 2011 was a strong season for a young player, yes. It stood out a lot from the year preceding it and the year that followed it, so it's not as if it just perfectly represented his younger years. 2015/2016 is when Martin actually started breaking out as a potential star.

2023 Martin got strong rapidly as the season approached its finale. He had something like less than 10 coaches votes to round 13. Too little, too late. Having the first 2/3 of the season as average and the last 1/3 of it as amazing isn't good enough for a club scrambling just to be in the finals mix.

NOBODY cares about Player Ratings. Stop trying to draw me into debates that you rely on them for.

Errr...it actually happened. So when you are listing his elite years and leaving out a year where a 19-20yo kid averages over 20 disposals and gets 56 goals + assists in a weak team, the fact he didn't do as well the year before or after is irrelevant. You got it wrong. You are coming up with your number of elite years only by leaving out some of his elite years.

He has finished top Richmond player in the coaches votes in 8 seasons for crying out loud. Almost all those seasons Richmond were a better than average team. So you are likely looking at 8 elite seasons right there.

 

[Mr Meow]

Errr...it actually happened. So when you are listing his elite years and leaving out a year where a 19-20yo kid averages over 20 disposals and gets 56 goals + assists in a weak team, the fact he didn't do as well the year before or after is irrelevant. You got it wrong. You are coming up with your number of elite years only by leaving out some of his elite years.

He has finished top Richmond player in the coaches votes in 8 seasons for crying out loud. Almost all those seasons Richmond were a better than average team. So you are likely looking at 8 elite seasons right there.

It was a good season. It standing out from the seasons before/after showed he had consistency issues, that really stayed around until 2016 and returned in 2021.

5 elite seasons. 2 others good, then 1 that came good too late so gets an asterisk.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

It was a good season. It standing out from the seasons before/after showed he had consistency issues, that really stayed around until 2016 and returned in 2021.

5 elite seasons. 2 others good, then 1 that came good too late so gets an asterisk.

Imo 2011, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2023 are all arguably elite seasons depending where you draw the line for elite.

But you are clutching to get 7th in Brownlow, 4th in player ratings, 20 disposals ave + 56 goals and assists as not being elite. Or top Coaches votes in an above average team. All these type of things normally signify elite seasons.

If a player did one of those things once, you might say it is an anomaly and maybe doesn't signify elite. When the owner of the most decorated season ever, winner of 3 Norm Smiths and 3 Ayres Medals and all of Dusty's myriad other achievements does it, it is ludicrous to suggest these markers don't signify elite seasons.

 

[Mr Meow]

Imo 2011, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2023 are all arguably elite seasons depending where you draw the line for elite.

But you are clutching to get 7th in Brownlow, 4th in player ratings, 20 disposals ave + 56 goals and assists as not being elite. Or top Coaches votes in an above average team. All these type of things normally signify elite seasons.

If a player did one of those things once, you might say it is an anomaly and maybe doesn't signify elite. When the owner of the most decorated season ever, winner of 3 Norm Smiths and 3 Ayres Medals and all of Dusty's myriad other achievements does it, it is ludicrous to suggest these markers don't signify elite seasons.

An attacking midfielder/forward hybrid needs to have an AA quality season to be truly elite. Around 12 or 13 midfielders make the cut, and the ones who rotate forward are perfect candidates for the extras that they throw on the flanks.

And yes I believe 2019 was a borderline AA worthy season before finals that certainly was after finals, so have bumped up his elite seasons from 4 to 5.

Excluding finals, Martin has just barely cracked 70 coaches votes in 2 seasons (2018 and 2019), then has another 2 where he cracked 90 (2016 and 2017). 2020 he surged from 42 to 70 votes during the finals series. Plenty of midfielders this century can match or better a few 70+ coaches votes seasons.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

An attacking midfielder/forward hybrid needs to have an AA quality season to be truly elite. Around 12 or 13 midfielders make the cut, and the ones who rotate forward are perfect candidates for the extras that they throw on the flanks.

And yes I believe 2019 was a borderline AA worthy season before finals that certainly was after finals, so have bumped up his elite seasons from 4 to 5.

Excluding finals, Martin has just barely cracked 70 coaches votes in 2 seasons (2018 and 2019), then has another 2 where he cracked 90 (2016 and 2017). 2020 he surged from 42 to 70 votes during the finals series. Plenty of midfielders this century can match or better a few 70+ coaches votes seasons.

"An AA quality season"

Wtf is an AA quality season?

Tyson Stengle got picked in the AA team in 2022 with:

27 coaches votes from 25 matches
14 disposals
5.6 contested possessions
63% disposal efficiency
2.6 goals + assists
2.6 tackles

Being fed by a dominant Premiership team.

Dustin Martin in 2011 was not even selected in the AA squad for the following season:

45 coaches votes from 22 games
22 disposals
8.8 contested possessions
3.7 clearances
Unknown disposal efficiency but likely around 68% judging by years immediately following
2.4 goals + assists
3.3 tackles

Playing in a team that never at any stage threatened to make finals.

So you tell me which of those 2 is an AA quality season meow.

If you tell the truth there is no such thing as an AA quality season. Players regularly get selected for seasons no better than other players who don't get selected. So an AA quality season is just a false construct you have invented to suit your argument.

 

[Mr Meow]

"An AA quality season"

Wtf is an AA quality season?

Tyson Stengle got picked in the AA team in 2022 with:

27 coaches votes from 25 matches
14 disposals
5.6 contested possessions
63% disposal efficiency
2.6 goals + assists
2.6 tackles

Being fed by a dominant Premiership team.

Dustin Martin in 2011 was not even selected in the AA squad for the following season:

45 coaches votes from 22 games
22 disposals
8.8 contested possessions
3.7 clearances
Unknown disposal efficiency but likely around 68% judging by years immediately following
2.4 goals + assists
3.3 tackles

Playing in a team that never at any stage threatened to make finals.

So you tell me which of those 2 is an AA quality season meow.

If you tell the truth there is no such thing as an AA quality season. Players regularly get selected for seasons no better than other players who don't get selected. So an AA quality season is just a false construct you have invented to suit your argument.

AA quality season = Being picked in the AA side or deserving to be picked. Your Stengle rant is the exact type of thing I was trying to draw out, so I won't pretend to complain about it. An AA rant is always something you're happy to serve up.

The midfielder/forward hybrids have the luxury of about 13 different spots they can be picked in. They fill the flanks, wing and bench spots most years. Even in his younger years Martin was still primarily a midfielder (look at the clearance numbers and compare them to actual primary forwards), he had the luxury of rotating forward or attacking-at-all-cost - conditions favourable for eye catching AA recognition. He still only made the side 4 times. 2019 was a bit harsh and his finals were great so this is how we land on 5 elite seasons.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

AA quality season = Being picked in the AA side or deserving to be picked. Your Stengle rant is the exact type of thing I was trying to draw out, so I won't pretend to complain about it. An AA rant is always something you're happy to serve up.

The midfielder/forward hybrids have the luxury of about 13 different spots they can be picked in. They fill the flanks, wing and bench spots most years. Even in his younger years Martin was still primarily a midfielder (look at the clearance numbers and compare them to actual primary forwards), he had the luxury of rotating forward or attacking-at-all-cost - conditions favourable for eye catching AA recognition. He still only made the side 4 times. 2019 was a bit harsh and his finals were great so this is how we land on 5 elite seasons.

And lol yes, AA selectors have been favourable to Dusty. This is comedy gold mate.

If it is easier for a mid-forward to get picked than a specialist small forward then answer me one question please...

How the feck did Stengle get picked for his 2023 season when Dusty couldn't get picked in the squad for his 2011 season?

Which season is objectively better?

Please say Stengle because he got picked in the AA team...

 

[Mr Meow]

And lol yes, AA selectors have been favourable to Dusty. This is comedy gold mate.

If it is easier for a mid-forward to get picked than a specialist small forward then answer me one question please...

How the feck did Stengle get picked for his 2023 season when Dusty couldn't get picked in the squad for his 2011 season?

Which season is objectively better?

Please say Stengle because he got picked in the AA team...

Once again you have failed to read and comprehend properly.

I said that role is an eye catching one for AA selectors. An attack at all cost midfielder who can rotate forward? It guarantees high disposal and goal numbers for any good player. You'd be correct in saying Martin is one of few who that role suits perfectly, but it absolutely is one that should've found him on the AA forward flank 8 or 9 times (where attacking midfielders are basically guaranteed a spot), not 4 times, if he was as great as you are saying. The 4-5 elite season mark is much more fitting.

Martin in 2011 was behind 12 midfielders (don't tell me he's a forward with those clearance numbers). Stengle in 2022 was ahead of most stay at home small forwards. I'm guessing that's why. Unless you think Martin in 2011 played the Stengle 2022 role. I can tell you he didn't.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Once again you have failed to read and comprehend properly.

I said that role is an eye catching one for AA selectors. An attack at all cost midfielder who can rotate forward? It guarantees high disposal and goal numbers for any good player. You'd be correct in saying Martin is one of few who that role suits perfectly, but it absolutely is one that should've found him on the AA forward flank 8 or 9 times (where attacking midfielders are basically guaranteed a spot), not 4 times, if he was as great as you are saying. The 4-5 elite season mark is much more fitting.

Martin in 2011 was behind 12 midfielders (don't tell me he's a forward with those clearance numbers). Stengle in 2022 was ahead of most stay at home small forwards. I'm guessing that's why. Unless you think Martin in 2011 played the Stengle 2022 role. I can tell you he didn't.

Lol, bullshit.

If "any good player" was guaranteed high disposals and high goals simply by starting midfield and going forward then the best players in every team would do exactly that, because they are the two most valuable areas of the field to master.

Show us the other 2011 midfielders with Martin's goal and assist numbers...and tell us how many of that little cohort missed AA selection, let alone squad selection.

The only reason Dustin Martin doesn't have more than 4 AA selections and other clearly inferior players do, is due to the selectors setting a higher bar for Dusty to get picked than other players. So quoting "AA quality seasons" as if it is some sort of black mark on his record is way off the mark. In any event at the very least most AA selections are debatable and marginal.

 

[Mr Meow]

Lol, bullshit.

If "any good player" was guaranteed high disposals and high goals simply by starting midfield and going forward then the best players in every team would do exactly that, because they are the two most valuable areas of the field to master.

Show us the other 2011 midfielders with Martin's goal and assist numbers...and tell us how many of that little cohort missed AA selection, let alone squad selection.

The only reason Dustin Martin doesn't have more than 4 AA selections and other clearly inferior players do, is due to the selectors setting a higher bar for Dusty to get picked than other players. So quoting "AA quality seasons" as if it is some sort of black mark on his record is way off the mark. In any event at the very least most AA selections are debatable and marginal.

Nah, a lot of teams decide not to have an ultra attacking mid/forward that must then be covered defensively by others. They let their forwards be forwards and their midfielders be two-way midfielders. Sure there will be some rotation but the secret ingredient to a premiership isn't to have an attacking midfielder who can capably sit forward.

Martin playing hybrid roles with no defensive duties always mean high disposal (relative to forwards) and goal numbers (relative to midfielders). He's been a great player, but such a free role will be rewarded when you are elite. Which he has been. 4 to 5 times.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Nah, a lot of teams decide not to have an ultra attacking mid/forward that must then be covered defensively by others. They let their forwards be forwards and their midfielders be two-way midfielders. Sure there will be some rotation but the secret ingredient to a premiership isn't to have an attacking midfielder who can capably sit forward.

Martin playing hybrid roles with no defensive duties always mean high disposal (relative to forwards) and goal numbers (relative to midfielders). He's been a great player, but such a free role will be rewarded when you are elite. Which he has been. 4 to 5 times.

What a load of shyte.

Every team has defensive forwards and attacking midfielders. Like every single team in the competition. Martin has just proven to be easily the best of the latter category across his career. When other gun mids deign to roll forward to feed at the trough, what happens? Not one of them, ever in any season, seems to be able to get near Dusty's 50% offensive 1 v 1 contest win percentage. He is the best in the AFL at that, v all comers. And any that can even get within about 20-30% of that contest win rate like Fyfe and Dangerfield have nowhere near the kicking skills and ability to turn contest wins into goals that Dusty does. Especially under pressure in big games.

Which is why we are here Meow.

 

[Mr Meow]

What a load of shyte.

Every team has defensive forwards and attacking midfielders. Like every single team in the competition. Martin has just proven to be easily the best of the latter category across his career. When other gun mids deign to roll forward to feed at the trough, what happens? Not one of them, ever in any season, seems to be able to get near Dusty's 50% offensive 1 v 1 contest win percentage. He is the best in the AFL at that, v all comers. And any that can even get within about 20-30% of that contest win rate like Fyfe and Dangerfield have nowhere near the kicking skills and ability to turn contest wins into goals that Dusty does. Especially under pressure in big games.

Which is why we are here Meow.

Martin averages just 0.13 more combined/goals assists per game than Dangerfield despite rotating forward a hell of a lot more.

He also has half the amount of AA selections.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Martin averages just 0.13 more combined/goals assists per game than Dangerfield despite rotating forward a hell of a lot more.

He also has half the amount of AA selections.

Now check finals and report back to us.

Hey, hang on. If Dusty rotated forward so much more than Dangerfield...why does Dangerfield average 23.6 disposals v Dusty 24.5 disposals?

 

[Mr Meow]

Now check finals and report back to us.

3 strong finals series, 1 okay one and 4 poor ones. A quite paltry 16 finals in total, all throughout his peak years.

Martin's scoring averages in premiership vs non-premiership winning finals series are quite telling. I'm not sure a bigger difference exists for any other player in history.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

3 strong finals series, 1 okay one and 4 poor ones. A quite paltry 16 finals in total, all throughout his peak years.

Martin's scoring averages in premiership vs non-premiership winning finals series are quite telling. I'm not sure a bigger difference exists for any other player in history.

Errr how did we go from career averages to that diatribe?

What are their scoring averages in finals?

 

[Mr Meow]

Now check finals and report back to us.

Hey, hang on. If Dusty rotated forward so much more than Dangerfield...why does Dangerfield average 23.6 disposals v Dusty 24.5 disposals?

3 goals, 3 goal assists from the 2013, 2014, 2015, 2018 and 2022 Martin finals series as a collective. 1 combined goal/assist a game in finals where Richmond were not the dominant, premiership winning team. For an attacking mid/forward, that is a poor return.

2017, 2019 and 2020 he was brilliant. But he never did it in finals in a non-dominant side, or in a losing final, and he has played well in only one genuinely close final (the 2020 PF).

 

[Mr Meow]

Errr how did we go from career averages to that diatribe?

What are their scoring averages in finals?

Martin has played so few finals (e.g Richmond kept getting knocked out in week 1), that his 3 great finals series statistically drown out his 5 poor ones.

So he caught a hot streak when his side was dominant, which would be like if Dangerfield at his 2016 peak found himself in the 2022 Cats side 4 years in a row. Dangerfield similarly dominated when his side was the best in 2022, even as a banged up veteran.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

3 goals, 3 goal assists from the 2013, 2014, 2015, 2018 and 2022 Martin finals series as a collective. 1 combined goal/assist a game in finals where Richmond were not the dominant, premiership winning team. For an attacking mid/forward, that is a poor return.

2017, 2019 and 2020 he was brilliant. But he never did it in finals in a non-dominant side, or in a losing final, and he has played well in only one genuinely close final (the 2020 PF).

Martin losing finals 7 goals + assists from 6 finals at 1.2 per match average.

v

Dangerfield losing finals 14 goals + assists from 13 matches 1.1 per match average.


So similar level but Dusty ahead. But yep, shocking, Dusty down to just above Dangerfield levels in losing finals.


Now let's have a look at winning finals:


Martin 38 from 10 finals at 3.8 per match.

v

Dangerfield 27 from 13 finals at 2.1 per match.


That didn't seem to go so well for you Meow. Sorry mate.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Martin has played so few finals (e.g Richmond kept getting knocked out in week 1), that his 3 great finals series statistically drown out his 5 poor ones.

So he caught a hot streak when his side was dominant, which would be like if Dangerfield at his 2016 peak found himself in the 2022 Cats side 4 years in a row. Dangerfield similarly dominated when his side was the best in 2022, even as a banged up veteran.

You mean those 9 finals that won Richmond 3 flags where Dusty was BOG or near BOG 8 times(totally unprecedented as far as we know.) The same 9 finals where Dusty set all sorts of 21st century scoring records, while playing mainly midfield?

It must drive you crazy meow.

Of course this just happened cos Dusty was lucky enough for Dimma to nominate him as the one who got to do all the good stuff like win clearances and kick contested goals etc. All the easy stuff like that.