Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)

[Meteoric Rise]

Dustin Martin : 3 finals against Geelong
23 disposals, 3 marks, 4 clearances, 2 goals & 1 direct goal.

vs

Wayne Carey : 3 finals against Geelong
23 disposals, 11 marks & 5.5 goals.


Put down the pipe Bender.

Dusty per full final v Cats

25 disposals, 11 contested possessions, 5 clearances, 11 score involvements(25% of all scores by both teams) 4 goals + goal assists 19% of all goals scored by both teams, 66% BOG rate.

Carey per final v Cats

23 disposals, 5.3 Goals(20% of all goals scored by both teams in those matches.) Likely 66% BOG rate.


Sadly, we don't have contested possessions, score involvements or goal assists for Carey in those matches, but he has smashed Geelong in finals, much like Dusty has done 2 decades later.

Interesting to compare them to the performance of Cats "greats" the Abletts and Tom Hawkins in these matches.

Cats K-Mart Greats Hawkins and the Abletts V Carey and Dusty in finals

6 combined matches, 2 each

They averaged

13 disposals, 8 goals + goals assists combined(an average of around 6% of the goals scored by both teams)

Just tells us all we need to know about these players.

 

[Mr Meow]

Dusty per full final v Cats

25 disposals, 11 contested possessions, 5 clearances, 11 score involvements(25% of all scores by both teams) 4 goals + goal assists 19% of all goals scored by both teams, 66% BOG rate.

Carey per final v Cats

23 disposals, 5.3 Goals(20% of all goals scored by both teams in those matches.) Likely 66% BOG rate.


Sadly, we don't have contested possessions, score involvements or goal assists for Carey in those matches, but he has smashed Geelong in finals, much like Dusty has done 2 decades later.

Interesting to compare them to the performance of Cats "greats" the Abletts and Tom Hawkins in these matches.

Cats K-Mart Greats Hawkins and the Abletts V Carey and Dusty in finals

6 combined matches, 2 each

They averaged

13 disposals, 8 goals + goals assists combined(an average of around 6% of the goals scored by both teams)

Just tells us all we need to know about these players.

Carey comes out on top of Dusty on this one, doesn't he (I didn't mean for that to sound vulgar).

Much like he does in every discussion over players from the last 40 years.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Carey comes out on top of Dusty on this one, doesn't he (I didn't mean for that to sound vulgar).

Much like he does in every discussion over players from the last 40 years.

They both destroyed Geelong across 3 finals = same same.

Dusty has a few more flags, Brownlows and Normys though.

 

[Mr Meow]

They both destroyed Geelong across 3 finals = same same.

Dusty has a few more flags, Brownlows and Normys though.

Carey did it better.

Better in finals, better in home and away. About 9 elite seasons. Twice as many as the Dust man.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Carey did it better.

Better in finals, better in home and away. About 9 elite seasons. Twice as many as the Dust man.

Flags, Brownlows, Normys

Carey 2

Dusty 7

Who could ever ask for more?

I wonder how they performed in the crucial goals v opposition team goals in Grand Finals that everybody cares so much about?

Carey was outscored by opposition teams by 53 goals across 4 Grand Finals @ 13.25 per game.

Dusty was outscored by opposition teams by 8 goals across 3 Grand Finals @ 2.66 per game.

Dusty seems to have done 10.59 goals better per Grand Final on this often referred to index, quite a difference.

 

[Mr Meow]

Flags, Brownlows, Normys

Carey 2

Dusty 7

Who could ever ask for more?

I wonder how they performed in the crucial goals v opposition team goals in Grand Finals that everybody cares so much about?

Carey was outscored by opposition teams by 53 goals across 4 Grand Finals @ 13.25 per game.

Dusty was outscored by opposition teams by 8 goals across 3 Grand Finals @ 2.66 per game.

Dusty seems to have done 10.59 goals better per Grand Final on this often referred to index, quite a difference.

Carey was a CHF. A league MVP from there is worth a 2 or 3 Brownlows as a midfielder.

I do enjoy that you've started mocking your own arbitrary awards before you deliver them. That kind of self awareness shows that slowly, slowly we are training you to be a functional human being instead of a lunatic.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Carey was a CHF. A league MVP from there is worth a 2 or 3 Brownlows as a midfielder.

I do enjoy that you've started mocking your own arbitrary awards before you deliver them. That kind of self awareness shows that slowly, slowly we are training you to be a functional human being instead of a lunatic.

When you are ahead of your time, you embrace mockery enthusiastically.

It is such a shame Dusty was so amazing in all 3 Grand Finals he played, otherwise we might be able to rule him out of the GOAT race. Alas, he wasn't having it, and so cut out our work for us meow.

 

[Corkintheocean]

Gotta love how these diehard Tigers supporters Meteoric Rise Cleansweep17 etc keep preaching to those who really don't care about Dusty as GOAT. He was an out and out champion for 3 or 4 years but is now well and truly past his use-by-date (you only had to look at his game against WCE. It was embarrassing just how disinterested, slow and removed he was). What he lacks to be considered a GOAT is true longevity, and not just racking up games to get to his 300th but impactful games

Disagree on longevity. I think as a metric it has become overvalued when considering GOAT status in recent times across several sports.

Give me the person burning the brightest for a sustained period of time over someone with a better meal prep routine and injury history.

Martin from 2017-2020 burnt brighter than anyone is the past 30 years.

 

[PhatBoy]

This thread is like that Japanese bloke they found 50 years after WWII had ended still defending himself except instead of a machine gun and a katana it’s a lack of lubricant and a couple of nude photos of Dustin Martin

 

[Lunchtime]

As they say, in Finals Footy reputations are created (good or bad), Finals Footy is when it truly matters. Simple as that. Martin has delivered in spades. In general, how many players are good in H&A but then turn to water during Finals Footy - when the pressure is poured on, when the screws are tightened, when the expectation from supporters goes up about 10 notches.

Surely that adds weight to Martin's career assessment when ranking him, even if he isn't THE GOAT or not one of the GOAT's. Who really cares if he is the GOAT or not? Like seriously??...

Surely at the very least, he has been one of the best players of the modern era in AFL Footy? Any team would love to have had him and non-Richmond supporters would love to have him at their club.

His output in H&A Footy is still good, I think.

Dustin Martin - Home & Away/Finals

Home & Away - 277 Games

averages per game in brackets

*still playing

Possessions: 6817 (24.61)
Contested Possessions: 2724 (9.83)
Clangers: 1074 (3.87)
Clearances: 1092 (3.94)
Marks: 1098 (3.96)
Contested Marks: 158 (0.57)
Goals: 304 (1.09)
Goal Assists: 200 (0.72)
Goal Accuracy: 304.213 = 58.80%
Tackles: 795 (2.87)
One Percenters: 305 (1.10)

Finals - 16 Games

Possessions: 352 (22.00)
Contested Possessions: 182 (11.37)
Clangers: 65 (4.06)
Clearances: 59 (3.68)
Marks: 44 (2.75)
Contested Marks: 12 (0.75)
Goals: 27 (1.68)
Goal Assists: 18 (1.12)
Goal Accuracy: 27.12 = 69.23%
Tackles: 31 (1.93)
One Percenters: 26 (1.62)

Total - 293 Games

Possessions: 7156 (24.50)
Contested Possessions: 2905 (9.94)
Clangers: 1157 (3.96)
Clearances: 1151 (3.94)
Marks: 1135 (3.88)
Contested Marks: 170 (0.58)
Goals: 330 (1.13)
Goal Assists: 217 (0.74)
Goal Accuracy: 330.225 = 59.45%
Tackles: 825 (2.82)
One Percenters: 331 (1.13)

Prelim Finals/Grand Finals - 7 Games

Possessions: 154 (22.00)
Contested Possessions: 83 (11.85)
Clangers: 24 (3.42)
Clearances: 23 (3.28)
Marks: 21 (3.00)
Contested Marks: 7 (1.00)
Goals: 17 (2.42)
Goal Assists: 8 (1.14)
Goal Accuracy: 17.7 = 70.83%
Tackles: 10 (1.42)
One Percenters: 11 (1.57)

Grand Finals - 3 Games

Possessions: 72 (24.00)
Contested Possessions: 44 (14.66)
Clangers: 8 (2.66)
Clearances: 14 (4.66)
Marks: 6 (2.00)
Contested Marks: 2 (0.66)
Goals: 10 (3.33)
Goal Assists: 5 (1.66)
Goal Accuracy: 10.2 = 83.33%
Tackles: 5 (1.66)
One Percenters: 2 (0.66)

To me and it's only my opinion, but his figures speak of an absolute champion....the GOAT?? Maybe...but who knows and again...who really cares? One of the GOAT's......maybe....but one thing is for sure that in modern AFL footy.....when it truly matters most....in Finals footy....no other player has been able to generate the type of impact that Martin has been able to produce......that to me speaks of a champion....a modern marvel in AFL Footy, in my opinion.

 

[Sttew]

Who really cares if he is the GOAT or not? Like seriously??...

7000+ posts...

 

[Captain_Bender]

7000+ posts...

It seems a topic Geelong supporters are really emotionally involved in

 

[My Tilly]

Dusty per full final v Cats

25 disposals, 11 contested possessions, 5 clearances, 11 score involvements(25% of all scores by both teams) 4 goals + goal assists 19% of all goals scored by both teams, 66% BOG rate.

Carey per final v Cats

23 disposals, 5.3 Goals(20% of all goals scored by both teams in those matches.) Likely 66% BOG rate.


Sadly, we don't have contested possessions, score involvements or goal assists for Carey in those matches, but he has smashed Geelong in finals, much like Dusty has done 2 decades later.

Interesting to compare them to the performance of Cats "greats" the Abletts and Tom Hawkins in these matches.

Cats K-Mart Greats Hawkins and the Abletts V Carey and Dusty in finals

6 combined matches, 2 each

They averaged

13 disposals, 8 goals + goals assists combined(an average of around 6% of the goals scored by both teams)

Just tells us all we need to know about these players.

Sorry but Martin simply isn't in the same class as what Carey was in finals against Geelong.

It's a little disconcerting even debating this because I reckon 98% of footy world would wholeheartedly agree in that Carey was the superior player.

Even blokes like Houli and Pickett were stiff not to have won the norm smith medals in those grand finals. It was not as if Martin was an emphatic difference maker. He bobbed up in the last quarter to put the icing on the cake.

 

[gungho]

Dusty behind quite a few as the greatest ever, including Mathews, Ablett x 2, Carey and Lockett.
He's have to be in that second bracket somewhere with Chris Judd and Lance Franklin. Also, you never want to write off a champion but he has run out of steam and should retire at the end of this year.

 

[My Tilly]

Also, you never want to write off a champion but he has run out of steam and should retire at the end of this year.

He should not have run out of steam because by the time he began to peak as a footballer, he had a lot of help from teammates so he did not have to carry the team on his back like we have seen with many past champions of the game.

Bit surprising how quickly he's fallen away. His peak was about 3-4 years. Franklin was pretty freakish for a number of years when he moved to the Swans. Like Franklin, did not have to carry the team but had to burden a slightly bigger workload than what Martin ever has.

 

[ThatsjustDappa]

Hmm, well Dusty is excluded from getting another Normy this year so if Dusty pulls 3 votes every game until the end of the season, this will definitely be enough for him to be considered goat.

 

[My Tilly]

Pretty much what most people already know

 

[RUNVS]

Pretty much what most people already know

Still a bit dirty that LRT did not win the Norm Smith in 2005. He was better than Judd and Judd was part of the losing team. The losing team almost never gets the Norm Smith.

 

[My Tilly]

Where's his butt sniffers gone?

Proclaimed 'GOAT' has been bloody ordinary this year.
32yr old is giving his club 19 touches and 1 goal every second game

 

[Xtreme]

Where's his butt sniffers gone?

Proclaimed 'GOAT' has been bloody ordinary this year.
32yr old is giving his club 19 touches and 1 goal every second game

Still the GOAT player of the AFL era, won't ever be topped (although JHF is the closest to emulating Dusty's feats).

 

[RUNVS]

Still the GOAT player of the AFL era, won't ever be topped (although JHF is the closest to emulating Dusty's feats).

He is still 32 years old and plenty of midfielders are still near their peaks at that age. Martin looks almost done.

He was Richmond's 11th best player today.

 

[Rich01]

Where's his butt sniffers gone?

Proclaimed 'GOAT' has been bloody ordinary this year.
32yr old is giving his club 19 touches and 1 goal every second game

Typical obsessed Geelong supporter.
He’s definitely given some cats fans some mental health problems over the past few years reading back through this thread.

 

[My Tilly]

Typical obsessed Geelong supporter.
He’s definitely given some cats fans some mental health problems over the past few years reading back through this thread.

Nah, been better players get a hold of us over the years.

 

[Rich01]

Nah, been better players get a hold of us over the years.

Woah Tilly, just noticed you’ve posted on this topic over 112 times. That’s a noticeable obsession if you ask me. Have you posted more over players that have held a hold of your club more? Who were they and what were the threads?
Acknowledgment of a problem is the first step to the cure.

 

[PhatBoy]

Woah Tilly, just noticed you’ve posted on this topic over 112 times. That’s a noticeable obsession if you ask me. Have you posted more over players that have held a hold of your club more? Who were they and what were the threads?
Acknowledgment of a problem is the first step to the cure.

Looking objectively, the fact is that the tigers understandably like to live off the three finals wins in short succession and at the time Martin was obviously red hot. In two of those games he was probably the most influential player on the field: had a tonne of ball and four goal assists in one, and kicked four in the other: a grand final. The third of those finals, the 2019 prelim, he was decent enough but not decisive, kicked two goals - one early on before Geelong took control of the game, had 22 touches, kicked one more goal, and Richmond - not unlike the grand final, controlled most of the game from about halfway through the third quarter.

But he’s not alone purely in finals terms. Luke Hodge played two sensational finals and like Martin, one was a grand final and one was a qualifier and both led to premierships while he was quieter relatively speaking in a prelim win. Jack Gunston kicked 3 in that prelim win and four in the qualifier win. Shaun Burgoyne played some big finals against us. So from Hawthorn alone we’ve had some tormentors that stack up to Martin’s level.

Without sounding conceited, the thing about winning as regularly as we do over the last 18 years, there aren’t THAT many teams or players who stitch you up regularly.

But I will give you a name of someone who has tormented us more than anyone else as far as simply dominating his position, influencing every game his team has won against us - right up until most recently, and who has unceremoniously dumped us out of the finals and also been massive in another finals win and after we beat Richmond this year, his win percentage against Geelong will go past both Martin and Hodge, as well as Gunston, Burgoyne etc:

Max Gawn.