Roast St Kilda in no mans land

[WillHayward]

He's finished top 6 in our BnF for 3 years straight. Years that we narrowly missed the 8 (21, 22) and played finals (23). He's a significant out. Unquestionably.


He was our best midfielder last year.


No one's having anything both ways

we're just telling you Brad Crouch is a quality player, which almost any Saints fan would tell you.

Stop back tracking and just admit you were off the mark.

Cool

So you going with Crouch at centre bounces or getting time into Windhager and Dow?

You tell me?

 

[Mat Mann]

Cool

So you going with Crouch at centre bounces or getting time into Windhager and Dow?

You tell me

you do realise both can happen?

 

[Jock1eyemcpie]

It's already happened....

Finished 8th in Adelaide's B&F in 2017.

Had 29 disposals, 10 tackles, 5 inside 50s and 8 clearances in the prelim they won by 10 goals. 29 disposals and 7 clearances in the losing Grand Final.

Then, and now, he'd get a game in basically any team.

Edit: In fact, Crouch finished 4th in the Gary Ayres award in 2017. Best on Ground in the first final vs GWS, then quality numbers in prelim/GF.

Last year he finished 16th in the AFL in clearances. 131 clearances, the highest in his career.

We going off 2017? 7 years ago?

 

[Plugger35]

Brad crouch probably wouldn’t get a game at most top sides.

He would get a game ahead of Tom Mitchell and a number of other clubs were chasing him when he was available like Geelong, Port Adelaide, Essendon and Richmond.

He's been one of our best midfielders since he joined us and has been a big loss for us this year, he's underrated outside St Kilda.

 

[Jock1eyemcpie]

He would get a game ahead of Tom Mitchell and a number of other clubs were chasing him when he was available like Geelong, Port Adelaide, Essendon and Richmond.

He's been one of our best midfielders since he joined us and has been a big loss for us this year, he's underrated outside St Kilda.

Crouch would probably get a game over Mitchell I’ll give you that one, but Mitchell is almost 31, and is obviously on the decline so that’s not really saying much. Regardless Mitchell’s had a better career than crouch has, and Collingwood recruited Mitchell just to help with the clearances, which was an area we desperately needed help in. Mitchell terrifies me when he kicks the ball, he should stick to hand balling it cause he doesn’t have the best disposal.

 

[PJays]

We going off 2017? 7 years ago?

His numbers haven't changed much, he's consistently been a clearance beast (5-6 per game), a ball magnet (27-30 disposals) his whole career. and a high placer in club B&F's. Won Adelaide's in 2019 and top 8 every other season where he's been mostly healthy (17,21,22,23)

Crouch would probably get a game over Mitchell I’ll give you that one

So one minute Crouch wouldn't get a game for good teams, next minute he walks into the reigning premiers?

Make up your mind....

 

[beside the seaside]

Don't de list him. Just annoys me when fans claim players are going to make a difference when they come back in.
A long list of so called "outs".

I'm just saying he's not going to be the difference between you winning or losing. .

He's probably now a list clogger cos you need to get midfield time into Dow and Windhager.

You can't have it both ways. Don't tell me you are a contender with Crouch in the side but also rebuilding with talented youth..that's clearly BS.

A little while back on this thread you were saying "lol bigfooty where it's better to be young than good". Now you're saying Crouch is a list clogger because he takes centre bounce time off younger players. You genuinely have no idea what your point is apart from StKildas suCk lolz.

 

[BrutThough]

Cool

So you going with Crouch at centre bounces or getting time into Windhager and Dow?

You tell me?

When did teams starting only playing 3 centre square mids?

Trust me, it won't break the side or hurt anyones development if we rotated 4 players through the centre square in a game. We might even go crazy and rotate a 5th midfielder in there!

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Steele, Crouch, Windhager, Ross and Dow is just a shocking midfield for a side that wants to be making and winning finals.

You can see why they have tried to run Sinclair and the kids through at times. But Sinclair is an elite hbf and the kids are more tweener types who won’t handle majority minutes in there.

An out and out A grade mid has to be the number one priority. All in for LDU and they’d be a much better side.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Yeah, that's the point. Normal people don't choose their team.
Choosing is a quirk of glory hunters, unless they pick a team based on their colours I suppose.

Choice can also happen if parents aren't really into football as well, or influenced by friends at school, or even just physical school location - I thought those were all normal ways

 

[ScrappyDo]

Seb Ross has one single centre bounce clearance for the season. And he's attended a lot of centre bounces.

Fair to say he's absolutely cooked.

Combine that with Crouch being either cooked/injured/out of form and you have a big problem in that position.

Marshall and Steele are good but you really need another two decent mids in there.

Time to play Sinclair there full time.

And Lyon has to work out what he wants to do with Owens. Having a terrible season. Thrown all over the joint and now just a master of nothing.
Lost his confidence and mojo. Not even sure if he's fit.

Seb Ross has shifted to "tagging" this season to let Windhager go for the ball.
Losing Henry, Wood, Webster, Crouch, Dow and Clark has absolutely gutted us and IMHO we can't gauge where we are at until these guys are playing.

Windhager is the one to watch though. Will absolutely be the next captain and is the leader of the youth group. Having his best season so far and will drag the kids along with him.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Owens can be a bull midfielder

It's absolutely insane that he doesn't spend there majority of his time there.

Kid seems to not know his role.

Owens gets lost in midfield traffic according to Harvey.

 

[ScrappyDo]

You weren't Melbournes list manger about 15 years ago were you?

We can't decide if he's a troll, 15 years old, or 115 years old. Came in with a bang 4 weeks ago advocating trading Phillipou. Made himself very popular with that one l can assure you.

 

[WillHayward]

What a weird thing to say. So we should de-list any player we don't think will be in our next premiership team?

You're so wrong on Crouch, he was our best mid last year in a year we played finals. Is currently injured which suddenly makes him a washed up hack?

You won't be delisting because he's contracted.

Just annoys me that fans are so delusional . They like to say in one hand

"If we had a full side we'd be contenders"

And also want to say we are rebuilding and have kids coming up.

It's delusional.

And Crouch isn't that good. So what if he did ok in your b and f. It's an average side and he's one of few senior blokes who played every week.

The point im making is you can't count players as "outs" when that player ain't going to make much difference.

Also you can't have it both ways in Crouch. Either he's good and Ur contending (false) or he needs less midfield minutes to help U rebuild and get minutes into Dow and Windhager.

Fans want it both ways .

And I think he's cooked anyway

 

[Freomaniac]

I agree. We might finish 5-8 again and win one final. That's probably best case scenario (and I'm not suggesting it's likely). Not a contender this year.

that would not be a bad thing. finish 5th to 8th and win a final.

Not many teams do that every year.

One Victorian side hasnt done that in 20 seasons. Another vic side hasnt made finals in 2016. A queensland side hasnt made finals in their history since entering the comp in 2011.

 

[Freomaniac]

3 in 12 days (Bulldogs 3 in 13) it was.

Plus we've had two 5 day breaks already. Has any other team had that so far?

And then the past 2 weeks you get 3 teams that played finals last year (one being the premiers!) getting to have an extra break part way through the season. Real great fixture you got there AFL.

True but Freo has had 2 trips to Adelaide oval in consective weeks.

WA teams travel far more than Any Vic side, including the saints.

 

[Freomaniac]

You're going back a long way there though, footy has changed significantly since then.

What Ross is doing reminds me of Scott during the 2010s, with less talent on the list.

Obviously, defense is important...but trying to win games where both sides combine for 20 goals has its ceiling.

We saw it time and time again at Geelong. It'll work, particularly if you've got quality players, but in this era of footy it gets found out in finals.

Particularly nowadays, as post Bulldogs 2016 we've seen every premier either adopt an element of chaos to their gameplan, or have genuine superstar forwards who can kick a winning score by themselves.

The reality is that in finals, players are going to make mistakes and this is is amplified for a teams like St Kilda & Freo right now, and Geelong in the past.

It's unbelievably hard to play a gamestyle which relies on perfection during finals for 3 or 4 straight weeks against the best of the best. The dam wall is going to break eventually.

You can't cap yourself at 10-11 goals anymore, and it was only once Geelong released the shackles that we saw success in September again.

We might see a pendulum swing somewhere down the line, but with the 6-6-6 rule, the stand rule, etc... it's getting harder and harder to win games purely on defensive structure and clogging up the ground.

You're right in the respect that Ross would be perfect for footy circa 2005. Unfortunately, it's 2024, and clubs have worked it out and the ones who are winning flags over the last 10 or so years have all adjusted.

Dogs in 2016 are a low scoring side.

Also since the Dogs in 2016, every single premiership side average less than 100 points in attack in the regular season.

Also since 2000.... I will mention certain grand final years... 2002, 2005, 2006, 2009, 2012, 2013, 2016, 2018, 2020 and 2023. All 10 of those grand finals have one thing in common. none of those sides that won the grand final scored 100 points to win the grand final

 

[Freomaniac]

Fmd two players!!!!

Have you seen how many kids are in the side. You need a mix.

The saints have the most Dangerous weapon at their club.... Ross Lyon. lol

 

[Freomaniac]

I get oppo fans thinks they're in no man's land and or the list is no good... but I'm not sure there's been any suggestions on what more they could be doing.

I'm guessing the first thing they're going to suggest is trading away the players they do have which is only going to suit the clubs challenging specifically the Victorian ones.

So can we actually have some analysis on something that will benefit st kilda if you do think they are in fact in no mans land.

Ummm no... and why?

 

[Flog_Toolist]

The saints have the most Dangerous weapon at their club.... Ross Lyon. lol

Sadly, the current St.Kilda list are too soft and accepting of mediocrity. The blokes that last had a tilt at the flag had much lower wages, much worse facilities, and much worse management. At least they scared the s**t out of Collingwood without winning a second premiership for the club.

These current well-paid dickheads are no comparison.

 

[WillHayward]

Sadly, the current St.Kilda list are too soft and accepting of mediocrity. The blokes that last had a tilt at the flag had much lower wages, much worse facilities, and much worse management. At least they scared the s**t out of Collingwood without winning a second premiership for the club.

These current well-paid dickheads are no comparison.

You also had about 10 gun players at that time.

Riewoldt
Hayes
Fisher
Goddard
Montagna
Dal Santo
Milne
Kosi
Gram
Schenider

Versus only 5 now. Wilkie Marshall Steele NWM and King.

 

[PJays]

You also had about 9 gun players at that time.

Riewoldt
Hayes
Fisher
Montagna
Dal Santo
Milne
Kosi
Gram
Schenider

Schneider, Kosi and Gram weren't really "guns" just solid players.

Goddard certainly was.

Gilbert and Dempster were at different times, not as consistently as the others. Gilbert had one great year but never continued on that trajectory, while Dempster improved over time but wasn't yet a "gun" in the main years.

Versus only 5 now. Wilkie Marshall Steele NWM and King.

Surely two time All-Australian Jack Sinclair another

NWM is getting there but not quite.

King is on the cusp but missing so much of 2023 and 2024 means it's premature putting him in this group. He needs a full season of quality play yet.

More guns in Lyon era 1 for sure. But it was an era with 16 teams and the competition (Geelong) had 10 or 15 "guns" themselves. It's a different era now, footy is more strategic and less reliant on individual brilliance. St Kilda needs more star talent to compete for a flag, just to be clear, but they don't need 8 or 9 "guns" probably 6 would do these days.

 

[WillHayward]

Schneider, Kosi and Gram weren't really "guns" just solid players.

Goddard certainly was.

Gilbert and Dempster were at different times, not as consistently as the others. Gilbert had one great year but never continued on that trajectory, while Dempster improved over time but wasn't yet a "gun" in the main years.


Surely two time All-Australian Jack Sinclair another

NWM is getting there but not quite.

King is on the cusp but missing so much of 2023 and 2024 means it's premature putting him in this group. He needs a full season of quality play yet.

More guns in Lyon era 1 for sure. But it was an era with 16 teams and the competition (Geelong) had 10 or 15 "guns" themselves. It's a different era now, footy is more strategic and less reliant on individual brilliance. St Kilda needs more star talent to compete for a flag, just to be clear, but they don't need 8 or 9 "guns" probably 6 would do these days.

Sorry - Goddard and Sinclair were oversights. Youre right that maybe teams were a bit more stacked back then.

But if you take a step back - the AFL side is mid table and the VFL is lower mid table.

So there is still an overall talent shortage on that list.

It is interesting that Frankston have now improved (IIRC they were a basket case a few years ago?). A combined Sandy/Frankston side would be top of the VFL probably.

 

[PJays]

These sorts of future projections are interesting but it's worth remembering how unpredictable sports and life can be.

Rewind a few years. Dylan Roberton

17

Dylan Roberton

Age

32

Ht

194cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.1

4star

K

11.4

4star

HB

5.8

4star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.9

4star

MG

373.2

5star

D

8.0

2star

K

7.0

3star

HB

1.0

1star

M

1.0

1star

T

0.0

1star

MG

215.0

3star

D

14.6

4star

K

10.2

4star

HB

4.4

4star

M

4.6

5star

T

1.6

4star

and Jake Carlisle were two of our best players. Both got cut down with injuries in their primes- Roberton with a heart complaint and Carlisle with back injuries. Roberton's career was effectively ended at 26, and Carlisle faded out over a 2-3 year period and retired at 29.

Meanwhile, two mature age recruits named Wilkie and Marshall came out of nowhere.

 

[WillHayward]

you do realise both can happen?

Hasnt happened ever.

You let me know when it does then.