Roast St Kilda in no mans land

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ScrappyDo said:
It is a rebuild, it's just that gutting your list has proven to be folly in the modern era.
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Not necessarily- most of the teams who completely bottomed out 5-10 years ago are now competing for flags

Eg
Melbourne 13-14. Prelim 18, flag 21

Carlton 15-18. Prelim 23. Currently tracking for another flag tilt

Bris 15-17. Finals 19-24. Many flag tilts, lost close GF 23.

Saints bottomed out from 2013-15 but just made crucial mistakes.

If we'd drafted better, made wiser list choices, we probably would've been competing for flags from 2020 onwards instead of a middle team (6, 10, 10, 6 last 4 years). If we had a Bontempelli level player the last 4 years (who we passed up for Billings) and another good player (say, if Carlisle's promising career hadn't been prematurely ended by injury) we probably make a prelim or two.

"Renovation" is a fair term. Saints can compete in 25 or 26 if things go well. They're not too far off it.

They're only 2 star players off top 4 I reckon, and do have a few good young players and a war chest. Which means 2 stars may yet appear.
 
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Footy_Fan2007 said:
s**t post. Fans are loyal. The saints have had a lot of good years. Just because they have fell short a few times doesn’t mean fans should abandon the club.

Their style isn’t the worst in the league. When the hawks won their flags they had an awful zone chip style game plan. Now that was s**t to watch.

The hawks will be in no man’s land for the next 15 years.
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Disagree on the Hawks style being s**t to watch. Nobody seems to rate the 2014 GF because it wasn’t close finish and they controlled events from start to finish, but I was spellbound in how clinical it seemed. I’ve watched it a few times since.

Agree though on Saints, and their rusted fans won’t drop off.
 
PJays said:
I know you're trolling but try putting the hyperbole meter back to 8 out of 10 for more effect. 12 out of 10 a bit too far

You do realise Steele is a 2 time All Australian and on track for a third appearance, Marshall made the AA40 last year, and Ross is a 2 time BnF :laughv1:
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I'm not trolling at all.

Let's break it down...

Firstly, were not talking necessarily about individual players. We're talking a midfield unit.

As a midfield unit, they're one paced, lacking skill, and lacking depth. Pedestrian. No game breaking ability. Vanilla.

Secondly, as individuals they're very average too.

Don't even mention Ross winning two B&Fs. I mean seriously, f**k me. Winning a B&F in an appalling team means absolutely nothing in terms of your standing in the comp.

Would you rather Ross in your midfield, or Jimmy Bartel? Or Michael Tuck? Or Cyril Rioli? Or Daniel Kerr?

Seriously, whomever writes this s**t is an absolute idiot. Come one. Winning two B&Fs in pathetic teams as evidence that your some sort of gun?? Fair dinkum.

As for Marshall, he's handy. But what damage does he actually do? He certainly doesn't do any damage drifting forward. He averages less than half a goal per game. He certainly doesn't worry anyone with his ruck work either.

He's not a spud - but I don't think the opposition is losing any sleep when they come up against him. The damage just isn't there.
What is in his favour, is that he pretty much rucks the entire game. It inflates his numbers ahead of other ruckmen who share the load.

And as for Steele, he's a good honest player. He's an excellent defensive midfielder. He'd probably be elite (ie. Top 10% in the comp) as a midfielder if he was allowed to play as a defensive mid 100% of the time. That's when he plays his best footy. What is glaring about how woeful St Kilda's midfield is, is that Steele is actually their best midfielder full stop! It would be like taking the Bont out of the Bulldogs midfield and letting Liberatore be the number 1 guy! Sure, he'd compete like a beast like Steele does and get some possessions and play some good footy - but there is no way in hell that a midfield led by him is ever going to rip you apart.

The offensive skill, class and game breaking ability just isn't there.



As I said earlier, tell me a worse midfield unit in living memory than St Kilda's at the moment?
 
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Lavender Bushranger said:
I'm not trolling at all.

Let's break it down...

Firstly, were not talking necessarily about individual players. We're talking a midfield unit.

As a midfield unit, they're one paced, lacking skill, and lacking depth.

Secondly, as individuals they're very average too.

Don't even mention Ross winning two B&Fs. I mean seriously, f**k me. Winning a B&F in an appalling team means absolutely nothing in terms of your standing in the comp.

Would you rather Ross in your midfield, or Jimmy Bartel? Or Michael Tuck? Or Cyril Rioli? Or Daniel Kerr?

Seriously, whomever writes this s**t is an absolute idiot. Come one. Winning two B&Fs in pathetic teams as evidence that your some sort of gun?? Fair dinkum.

As for Marshall, he's handy. But what damage does he actually do? He certainly doesn't do any damage drifting forward. He averages less than half a goal per game. He certainly doesn't worry anyone with his ruck work.

He's not a spud - but I don't think the opposition is losing any sleep when they come up against him. The damage just isn't there.
What is in his favour, is that he pretty much rucks th entire game. It inflates his numbers ahead if other ruckmen who share the load.

And as for Steele, he's a good honest player. He's an excellent defensive midfielder. He'd probably be elite (ie. Top 10% in the comp) as a midfielder is he was allowed to play as a defensive mid 100% of the time. That's when he plays his best footy. What is glaring about how woeful St Kilda's midfield is, is that Steele is actually their best midfielder full stop! It would be like taking Bont out of the Bulldogs midfield and letting Liberatore be the number 1 guy! Sure, he'd compete like a beast like Steele does and get some possessions and play some good footy - but there is no way in hell that a midfield led by him is ever going to rip you apart.

The offensive skill, class and game breaking ability just isn't there.



As I said earlier, tell me a worse midfield unit in living memory than St Kilda's at the moment?
Click to expand...
Agree re Steele. He is a very good player but if the oppositions best mids are getting off the chain he's the one charged with stopping them. They don't have a midfielder that opposition is worried about coming into the game like Petracca, Bont, Heeney etc.

Tbh they don't really have many of those players anywhere on the field, Wilkie and Sinclair the closest to it but if the midfields getting smashed theres nothing they can really do to change the tides.

With that said I fully expect them to beat us at the end of the season, their B graders like Membrey and Higgins absolutely love dining out on us for some reason.
 
WillHayward said:
So basically a rebuild. Which is fine and a logical place to be now.

But you need to be honest that when Lyon was appointed the Board and the fans thought you should be contending.

I recall the word "ruthless" being used all the time.

Now essentially you are gifting games to young kids.
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I don't think they did at all.


What the marketing department spruik to fans is very different to what clubs think internally.

The whole Sonja Hood approach about having a great list etc. etc. is just nonsense. We all know it. Clubs have to sell hope to the cretins out there to get them to buy memberships and rock up each week.

Coaches know before they even arrive who isn any good in their list, and it doesn't usually take long for them to weed them out.

Wasn't Lyon even caught on audio literally slamming the playing list's talent during their very first practice match?

He knew then, and he'd be even more certain now - that they suck.

They've been in rebuild mode since he took the reins.


For the record, and for those wanting to rewrite history based on their incredible overachievement last year, this is an expert of an article when Lyon took over....


In his press conference to announce Ratten’s sacking, Bassat said the club is committed to “getting the foundations right”.

“If that takes us backwards before it takes us forwards – we hope it does not – but if it does, we’ll cop it and we’ll maintain the courage of our convictions.”

For Dixon, “backwards” may be putting it nicely.

“When you look at it, he‘s at blank canvas stage going into St Kilda. They’ve slaughtered the list. They’ve got no real guns,” he said.

“Jack Steele yes, Max King is a possible – he still hasn’t pushed to A-grade status yet because he hasn’t finished his work – if you can’t find more than two or three, it’s a blank canvass. He’s starting from scratch.

“Nothing is attractive about that list.”
 
I get oppo fans thinks they're in no man's land and or the list is no good... but I'm not sure there's been any suggestions on what more they could be doing.

I'm guessing the first thing they're going to suggest is trading away the players they do have which is only going to suit the clubs challenging specifically the Victorian ones.

So can we actually have some analysis on something that will benefit st kilda if you do think they are in fact in no mans land.
 
StCicatriz said:
I get oppo fans thinks they're in no man's land and or the list is no good... but I'm not sure there's been any suggestions on what more they could be doing.

I'm guessing the first thing they're going to suggest is trading away the players they do have which is only going to suit the clubs challenging specifically the Victorian ones.

So can we actually have some analysis on something that will benefit st kilda if you do think they are in fact in no mans land.
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FWIW, I think they simply have to do exactly what they've been doing.

Draft. Play kids. Build professionalism. Try to recruit good players.

That s**t takes time.
 
The issue in a nutshell:

St Kilda's list is unbalanced with it's age profile

There are lots of good veterans
  • Steele, Wilkie, Marshall, Membrey, Crouch, Ross, Sinclair, Hill - All aged 28+. Mostly 150+ game players (except Wilkie and Marshall who were mature age recruits). Plenty of best and fairests, All Australian selections and accolades in that group. All quality players.

We have plenty of promising young players (22 and under)
  • NWM, Owens, Windhager, Phillipou, Caminiti, Byrnes, Henry, Wilson, Garcia, I'll throw in King (although he's 24 in July, he's missed 2 or 2.5 years of footy through injury and only played 75 games). St Kilda hasn't had a young group this talented for 20 years.

The problem is there isn't much in between. Battle, Higgins, Hunter Clark and not much else- in the 23-27 bracket which is when AFL footballers typically stamp their authority and really announce themselves in the AFL.

That's the core issue.

We need this to happen:
  • The young group to keep developing, and fast.
  • Pick up a quality FA with the war chest.
If those two things happen, Saints can compete for a flag in 2025 or 2026.

The problem is, if it doesn't happen, by 2027 the older group will be starting to fade out and retire.

So it's a short window and lots has to go right.

But I'd still say Saints look closer to genuine success than they have at any time in the last 10-12 years- because I think the young group has potential. Especially King and NWM who look like the best two youngsters we've brought into the club in the past 20 years. And we know there's a war chest.
 
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They looked really good against the Pies a few weeks back, but that win aside they have been quite disappointing.

They are well coached and might turn it around, but I sure wouldn't bet on it.

They have definitely improved their list in recent seasons, but is it quite good enough yet to be a strong finals team? I'm really not sure.

I tipped them to finish 11th at the start of the season and wouldn't change that prediction at the moment.
 
Lavender Bushranger said:
I'm not trolling at all.

Let's break it down...

Firstly, were not talking necessarily about individual players. We're talking a midfield unit.

As a midfield unit, they're one paced, lacking skill, and lacking depth. Pedestrian. No game breaking ability. Vanilla.

Secondly, as individuals they're very average too.

Don't even mention Ross winning two B&Fs. I mean seriously, f**k me. Winning a B&F in an appalling team means absolutely nothing in terms of your standing in the comp.

Would you rather Ross in your midfield, or Jimmy Bartel? Or Michael Tuck? Or Cyril Rioli? Or Daniel Kerr?

Seriously, whomever writes this s**t is an absolute idiot. Come one. Winning two B&Fs in pathetic teams as evidence that your some sort of gun?? Fair dinkum.

As for Marshall, he's handy. But what damage does he actually do? He certainly doesn't do any damage drifting forward. He averages less than half a goal per game. He certainly doesn't worry anyone with his ruck work either.

He's not a spud - but I don't think the opposition is losing any sleep when they come up against him. The damage just isn't there.
What is in his favour, is that he pretty much rucks the entire game. It inflates his numbers ahead of other ruckmen who share the load.

And as for Steele, he's a good honest player. He's an excellent defensive midfielder. He'd probably be elite (ie. Top 10% in the comp) as a midfielder if he was allowed to play as a defensive mid 100% of the time. That's when he plays his best footy. What is glaring about how woeful St Kilda's midfield is, is that Steele is actually their best midfielder full stop! It would be like taking the Bont out of the Bulldogs midfield and letting Liberatore be the number 1 guy! Sure, he'd compete like a beast like Steele does and get some possessions and play some good footy - but there is no way in hell that a midfield led by him is ever going to rip you apart.

The offensive skill, class and game breaking ability just isn't there.



As I said earlier, tell me a worse midfield unit in living memory than St Kilda's at the moment?
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Mate our midfield is s**t, no question but "in living memory".

Unless your talking potential Hawthorn and North both have worse mid fields than us this season alone.

No doubt youll come up with some caveat about how they have "gamebreakers" or whatever but factually right now weve got them covered so given i can unequivocally name two from this year alone i reckon theres probably PLENTY in recent memory. Melbourne had Jordan Gysberts and Matty Bate on ball for a while.
 
PJays said:
I know you're trolling but try putting the hyperbole meter back to 8 out of 10 for more effect. 12 out of 10 a bit too far

You do realise Steele is a 2 time All Australian and on track for a third appearance, Marshall made the AA40 last year, and Ross is a 2 time BnF :laughv1:
Click to expand...

Seb Ross has one single centre bounce clearance for the season. And he's attended a lot of centre bounces.

Fair to say he's absolutely cooked.

Combine that with Crouch being either cooked/injured/out of form and you have a big problem in that position.

Marshall and Steele are good but you really need another two decent mids in there.

Time to play Sinclair there full time.

And Lyon has to work out what he wants to do with Owens. Having a terrible season. Thrown all over the joint and now just a master of nothing.
Lost his confidence and mojo. Not even sure if he's fit.
 
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WillHayward said:
Seb Ross has one single centre bounce clearance for the season. And he's attended a lot of centre bounces.

Fair to say he's absolutely cooked.

Combine that with Crouch being either cooked/injured/out of form and you have a big problem in that position.

Marshall and Steele are good but you really need another two decent mids in there.

Time to play Sinclair there full time.

And Lyon has to work out what he wants to do with Owens. Having a terrible season. Thrown all over the joint and now just a master of nothing.
Lost his confidence and mojo. Not even sure if he's fit.
Click to expand...

Owens can be a bull midfielder

It's absolutely insane that he doesn't spend there majority of his time there.
 
WillHayward said:
Seb Ross has one single centre bounce clearance for the season. And he's attended a lot of centre bounces.

Fair to say he's absolutely cooked.

Combine that with Crouch being either cooked/injured/out of form and you have a big problem in that position.

Marshall and Steele are good but you really need another two decent mids in there.

Time to play Sinclair there full time.

And Lyon has to work out what he wants to do with Owens. Having a terrible season. Thrown all over the joint and now just a master of nothing.
Lost his confidence and mojo. Not even sure if he's fit.
Click to expand...


Fair to say their injuries have restricted what options Lyon has. Crouch Clark Dow Henry Jones all injured at times.
 
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WillHayward said:
Clark fringe
Dow still unproven at AFL level but still a possibility
Jones is cooked and/or not very good
Crouch is cooked and/or not very good.
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That was fair until you got to Crouch.

Good player.

Clark has had many injuries in his career. May yet become a consistent contributor.
 
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