Roast St Kilda in no mans land

[PJays]

That's an interesting point.

Their List Management and team selection has screamed rebuild since Lyon arrived.

They've discarded the Billings' and Coffields' of the world, and launched into the draft.

Not really.

They got rid of players on excessive contracts who, according to the rumours had been interested in leaving St Kilda for years - Billings and Gresham. Plus Coffield.

That's a smart play and similar to Collingwood 3 or 4 years ago. Regardless of whether you're rebuilding or not.

They haven't "launched into the draft" they've just actually drafted their first and 2nd round picks- which is a departure from other years in the last decade, when they sold off 1st round picks for mature players (Carlisle and Hill). But they've only used the picks they've had- they haven't traded more picks in.

And they've been playing these kids from the Draft too.

Some of them are genuine AFL footballers- NWM, Owens, Windhager.

Philipou can barely get out of his daylight most weeks, but he plays every week. Wilson is not even close to AFL yet, but he plays every week.

Phillipou, Wilson, Sharman (although he's not really a kid- he's 23) I'm unsure whether they'd be in the team if more senior players were available.

Garcia has been good and hopefully keeps showing it, but would he have got the opportunity if circumstances were different? Who knows.

They've blooded and got games into all their youngsters.

Again I suspect this is partially because we've got 6, 7, 8 experienced players unavailable.

In a few weeks hopefully that list shortens and we'll find out what Ross really thinks of these kids

Not only that, Lyon gives them centre bounce time instead of rushing Sinclair and others in there.

Sinclair's best work is off half back- that's not necessarily an indication Ross trusts the kids.

Whether their rebuild works or not remains to be seen, but it's pretty obvious that they are in fact rebuilding.

Not really.

I think they've got 2025 and 2026 in mind, while Steele, Sinclair, Ross, Hill, Wilkie, Marshall, Membrey and Crouch are still quality players- They're all 28 or more.

Saints don't have time to "rebuild".

Their plan will be

• Try to recruit a gun FA
• Hope some of NWM, King, Owens, Windhager and the younger kids become genuine superstars

If that happens, if everything goes right, we might contend in 25 or 26.

But they aren't "rebuilding" and thinking 3-4 years down the track.

 

[LifestyleSaints]

Not really.

They got rid of players on excessive contracts who, according to the rumours had been interested in leaving St Kilda for years - Billings and Gresham. Plus Coffield.

That's a smart play and similar to Collingwood 3 or 4 years ago. Regardless of whether you're rebuilding or not.

They haven't "launched into the draft" they've just actually drafted their first and 2nd round picks- which is a departure from other years in the last decade, when they sold off 1st round picks for mature players (Carlisle and Hill). But they've only used the picks they've had- they haven't traded more picks in.


Some of them are genuine AFL footballers- NWM, Owens, Windhager.


Phillipou, Wilson, Sharman (although he's not really a kid- he's 23) I'm unsure whether they'd be in the team if more senior players were available.

Garcia has been good and hopefully keeps showing it, but would he have got the opportunity if circumstances were different? Who knows.


Again I suspect this is partially because we've got 6, 7, 8 experienced players unavailable.

In a few weeks hopefully that list shortens and we'll find out what Ross really thinks of these kids


Sinclair's best work is off half back- that's not necessarily an indication Ross trusts the kids.


Not really.

I think they've got 2025 and 2026 in mind, while Steele, Sinclair, Ross, Hill, Wilkie, Marshall, Membrey and Crouch are still quality players- They're all 28 or more.

Saints don't have time to "rebuild".

Their plan will be

• Try to recruit a gun FA
• Hope some of NWM, King, Owens, Windhager and the younger kids become genuine superstars

If that happens, if everything goes right, we might contend in 25 or 26.

But they aren't "rebuilding" and thinking 3-4 years down the track.

By the time we are contending all the above in red will be retired with exception of Wilkie. We need to keep adding youth from the draft. When will we ever learn that there are no shortcuts in the AFL???

 

[Footy_Fan2007]

I can't believe that there are people who give away their hard earned money to either buy a St Kilda membership or attend the odd game here and there.

It has to be the worst ROI in all sports. Nevermind the lack of success aspect but there is zero entertainment factor.

Shit post. Fans are loyal. The saints have had a lot of good years. Just because they have fell short a few times doesn’t mean fans should abandon the club.

Their style isn’t the worst in the league. When the hawks won their flags they had an awful zone chip style game plan. Now that was shit to watch.

The hawks will be in no man’s land for the next 15 years.

 

[Kobe Gryant]

Too early to say. Dogs could finish as high as 5th/6th or as low as 13th/14th.


Both teams had outs. Saints missing King, Crouch (two of our best players) plus Wood, Henry, Webster, Clark, Paton. Plus Dow.


They've both had easier fixtures but you can only beat the teams in front of you. In modern AFL winning 5 in a row is impressive regardless who you're playing.


True. But they said the same about Sydney in 2005. If we had more elite ball users, or more elite mids generally, maybe the tactics wouldn't be discussed as much. Those things seems the bigger issues to me


I agree. We might finish 5-8 again and win one final. That's probably best case scenario (and I'm not suggesting it's likely). Not a contender this year.

You're going back a long way there though, footy has changed significantly since then.

What Ross is doing reminds me of Scott during the 2010s, with less talent on the list.

Obviously, defense is important...but trying to win games where both sides combine for 20 goals has its ceiling.

We saw it time and time again at Geelong. It'll work, particularly if you've got quality players, but in this era of footy it gets found out in finals.

Particularly nowadays, as post Bulldogs 2016 we've seen every premier either adopt an element of chaos to their gameplan, or have genuine superstar forwards who can kick a winning score by themselves.

The reality is that in finals, players are going to make mistakes and this is is amplified for a teams like St Kilda & Freo right now, and Geelong in the past.

It's unbelievably hard to play a gamestyle which relies on perfection during finals for 3 or 4 straight weeks against the best of the best. The dam wall is going to break eventually.

You can't cap yourself at 10-11 goals anymore, and it was only once Geelong released the shackles that we saw success in September again.

We might see a pendulum swing somewhere down the line, but with the 6-6-6 rule, the stand rule, etc... it's getting harder and harder to win games purely on defensive structure and clogging up the ground.

You're right in the respect that Ross would be perfect for footy circa 2005. Unfortunately, it's 2024, and clubs have worked it out and the ones who are winning flags over the last 10 or so years have all adjusted.

 

[joe444]

Pjays already asked, but can you do the stats for 5 day breaks only?

6 vs 7 days is 16.66% more recovery time for the longer break. 5 v 6 is 20% more. It's not a huge difference but this is sports science driven modern football where even small edges can be of consequence.

2019, 2022 and 2023 Games between 5-day break v 6-day break

5day break: 7 wins
6day break: 6 wins

 

[SSSSSS]

s**t post. Fans are loyal. The saints have had a lot of good years. Just because they have fell short a few times doesn’t mean fans should abandon the club.

Their style isn’t the worst in the league. When the hawks won their flags they had an awful zone chip style game plan. Now that was s**t to watch.

The hawks will be in no man’s land for the next 15 years.

You don't enjoy watching high scoring football? You would be in the minority I'd guess.

Anyway, this thread is about St Kilda not Hawthorn. I'd recommend you taking Hawthorn related posts to the many threads relating to the Hawks.

 

[TheNewEnsign]

2019, 2022 and 2023 Games between 5-day break v 6-day break

5day break: 7 wins
6day break: 6 wins

Thanks! Oh well, there goes that theory...

 

[PJays]

Thanks! Oh well, there goes that theory...

Not really. As I said earlier....

You'd need a sample size of maybe, 100-150 games minimum to get a meaningful indication on 5 day breaks. Not sure we'd have that.

And extra points for anyone who calculates back-to-back short breaks, with and without travel (Saints just had 6 and 5 with travel)

 

[joe444]

Thanks! Oh well, there goes that theory...

Adding in 2017, 2018, to 2019, 2022 and 2023 Games between 5-day break v 6-day break

5day break: 9 wins
6day break: 8 wins

I suspect on a five day break a team prepares very differently. Or at least should.

 

[StCicatriz]

Soft would be last nights performance. Getting out tackled by a team who had 80 more possessions and 70 more tackles is inexcusable.

Soft would be bringing in a tired ex-coach who 12 years since his previous dismissal is still out of ideas.

Soft is the ongoing history of St Kilda continually wilting under any pressure which is incredible since no one really excepts much out of the club yet they still somehow keep disappointing.

Yet you sit there and go why are there saints fans... where is the return on investment.

Just be honest. You're too soft to endure a sporting team if they're not winning.

It's OK to admit you're very much transactional with your club and unless they're winning you're out because you have no real resilience.

The funny thing is you genuinely don't get it and any decent footy fan who's been through some hard times and stuck fat will see it.

You're coming off looking extremely soft.

Which is why you were probably quick to come into this thread to get some enjoyment by punching down on an easy target. Try it will Geelong or Collingwood and see how you go!!!

 

[SSSSSS]

Yet you sit there and go why are there saints fans... where is the return on investment.

Just be honest. You're too soft to endure a sporting team if they're not winning.

It's OK to admit you're very much transactional with your club and unless they're winning you're out because you have no real resilience.

The funny thing is you genuinely don't get it and any decent footy fan who's been through some hard times and stuck fat will see it.

You're coming off looking extremely soft.

Which is why you were probably quick to come into this thread to get some enjoyment by punching down on an easy target. Try it will Geelong or Collingwood and see how you go!!!

Sat through plenty of hard times although they probably look rosy in comparison. It's what make the good times so good. There is always hope at the end of the tunnel.

I just don't see anything at the end of the tunnel for the Saints current list. You've got a few lower end A-graders but no out and out star (maybe Michito can elevate himself I have high hopes for him). Far too many workman Ross Lyon C-graders.

There is no Riewoldt, Goddard, Joey or Hayes to will your side over the line.

 

[joe444]

Not really. As I said earlier....

And extra points for anyone who calculates back-to-back short breaks, with and without travel (Saints just had 6 and 5 with travel)

Canberra is "travel" now? And everyone was in Adelaide the week before. To repeat, all I'm hearing is excuses. Apparently, St Kilda members got an email during the week reassuring them that the plan was in place and everything was fine. I'd be livid if my club did that.

Still, I've been whinging about Geelong (6 days) v Brisbane (9 days) but should probably shut up too ... source afl.com.au

 

[danster168]

Philippou is a perfect example of a guy being hyped based solely on his draft position. When I watch him all I see is a one-paced half forward with average skills. But apparently he's the next Bont because he's tall.

 

[SSSSSS]

Philippou is a perfect example of a guy being hyped based solely on his draft position. When I watch him all I see is a one-paced half forward with average skills. But apparently he's the next Bont because he's tall.

Should be playing in the VFL building some confidence by playing as a mid.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

St Kilda seem to believe they're genuinely building towards a flag challenge in the next couple of years.

Do they though?

What about their List Management and team selection suggests they think they're on the cusp?

 

[largebus]

The positive after this run of games is they travel just once after the bye and have their last 6 games at Marvel. Must be nice.
So if they get on a roll they could sneak in the 8. Again, it's hard to see them being anything more than first round fodder.

 

[Orange crush]

The positive after this run of games is they travel just once after the bye and have their last 6 games at Marvel. Must be nice.
So if they get on a roll they could sneak in the 8. Again, it's hard to see them being anything more than first round fodder.

6 games in a row without travel …. Geez they get looked after

 

[mcgrath_truther]

6 games in a row without travel …. Geez they get looked after

port adelaide had 3 rounds straight of no travelling before this week

 

[StCicatriz]

6 games in a row without travel …. Geez they get looked after

I've heard it all. A GWS fan claiming another club us "looked after".

 

[Orange crush]

I've heard it all. A GWS fan claiming another club us "looked after".

Cry me a river

 

[StCicatriz]

Cry me a river

A river of draft picks?

 

[PJays]

Do they though?

What about their List Management and team selection suggests they think they're on the cusp?

Riley Bonner.

Zaine Cordy.

Those are top up players to help you get over the line.

They're not guys you'd choose to take games off kids if you were genuinely "rebuilding".

Go read my response to your last post too. You're off the mark about St Kilda's strategy.

 

[StCicatriz]

Riley Bonner.

Zaine Cordy.

Those are top up players to help you get over the line.

They're not guys you'd choose to take games off kids if you were genuinely "rebuilding".

Go read my response to your last post too. You're off the mark about St Kilda's strategy.

Fmd two players!!!!

Have you seen how many kids are in the side. You need a mix.

 

[Saints43]

I can't believe that there are people who give away their hard earned money to either buy a St Kilda membership or attend the odd game here and there.

It has to be the worst ROI in all sports. Nevermind the lack of success aspect but there is zero entertainment factor.

They probably barrack for the team their family already supported.
Unlike almost every Hawthorn customer I've ever known.

 

[SSSSSS]

They probably barrack for the team their family already supported.
Unlike almost every Hawthorn customer I've ever known.

It's the only explanation.

I don't know who would actually choose to support St Kilda.