2025 Federal Election: A Pox o' Both Your Houses

Who will you be voting for?

  • Abstain and cop the fine

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • Labor

    Votes: 36 39.1%
  • Liberal-National Coalition

    Votes: 9 9.8%
  • Greens

    Votes: 19 20.7%
  • A new age marketing colour called Teal

    Votes: 5 5.4%
  • Independent

    Votes: 12 13.0%
  • I haven't decided yet

    Votes: 8 8.7%
  • DONKEY

    Votes: 2 2.2%

  • Total voters
    92

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I'd be interested to read the numbers of this if you have them

It's a part of appreciating the entire super guarantee system and how it works somewhat hand in hand currently. We have a hybrid pension system which enables private wealth mobilisation so as to increase pension efficiency.

We have a 3 pillar system - 1. Aged Pension 2. Compulsory employer contributions to super and 3. voluntary savings and investment/cash/wealth savings.

Tax incentives that plenty criticise, like negative gearing, CGT discounts, SMSF and super tax incentives are critical in relieving pressure and stimulating investment = aggregate demand increasing.


Australia's pension liability is due to drop to 2% of GDP, despite the number of Australians over the age of 65 doubling by 2063. Not all of this is employer contributions. It's incentives like voluntary contributions, it's savings and wealth generation, there's self managed super funds etc.

The OECD for advanced economies spend as a percentage of GDP for their pension systems is 9-10.4%.

To put that in perspective, in Australian terms, that efficiency of the 3 pillar system is worth $210B AUD per year in savings that we are able to spend elsewhere compared to somewhere like France. France spends as much as 16% of GDP on their pension.

To put this in real terms - In the coming years if they do not pair back their liability, they could spend as much as $790B AUD on pension liabiliies, vs Australia spending $70-100B AUD total per year.

Italy, Spain, Germany, Japan are all in a similar boat.....

They have government expenditure that high and and still rank well below Australia on the major global pension index's



We rank extremely highly in global metrics regarding support for retiree's relative to the rest of the world.





We are 6th on the Mercer Index and 7th on the Natixis Global Retirement Index.


Mobilising personal wealth is not a bad thing compared to global alternatives in terms of pensions. There are obviously other impacts to this like housing affordability to consider.

But you really need to understand the global impact of other systems and how Australia is the envy of most countries in this regard.

People complaining about the aged pension and lack of support is fairly wild. There certainly might need to be support at the very bottom income levels to support people without the required super, cash savings etc and to offset other economic impacts. However, the general data shows that our system is an extremely extremely efficient in it's current arrangement with a really high standard of living for retirees.

Now it's important to consider our income poverty rates (a % of income of pensions vs cost of living is high). This illustrates our relatively low state and government pensions liabilities vs cost of living.

The idea behind this is that you are drawing down savings and mandatory super withdrawals during the pension period of your life vs receiving set income.

It however gets back to my earlier point regarding the importance of supporting those still whom don't have that capability. Particularly in this coming generation who may not have had the super guarentee for a big portion of their working life and haven't amassed the assets to reitre.




That's part of my point. Our system is design to empower the middle class etc to invest, removing added burden on things like pension liability. They aren't meant to get the pension.

Most of these people aren't design to ever be on the pension as our current system enables them to amass wealth so we don't have to spend hundreds of billions in pension liabilities in the future. Hence our liabilities shrinking in the coming years, despite retiree's exploding.


70% of negative gearing is utilised by people with a taxable income of less than $80,000 per year.

It is not just a vehicle for the rich. It's functioning right through all income levels - high/middle/low as a function of our savings and wealth creation mechanisms for retirement.



Nearly 30% of all of those negative gearing are 39 or under also. The lowest age demographic % is actually those 60 and over. It debunks the boomer bashing in terms of hoarding and land banking investment properties.
 
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It's a part of appreciating the entire super guarantee system and how it works somewhat hand in hand currently. We have a hybrid pension system which enables private wealth mobilisation so as to increase pension efficiency.

We have a 3 pillar system - 1. Aged Pension 2. Compulsory employer contributions to super and 3. voluntary savings and investment/cash/wealth savings.

Tax incentives that plenty criticise, like negative gearing, CGT discounts, SMSF and super tax incentives are critical in relieving pressure and stimulating investment = aggregate demand increasing.


Australia's pension liability is due to drop to 2% of GDP, despite the number of Australians over the age of 65 doubling by 2063. Not all of this is employer contributions. It's incentives like voluntary contributions, it's savings and wealth generation, there's self managed super funds etc.

The OECD for advanced economies spend as a percentage of GDP for their pension systems is 9-10.4%.

To put that in perspective, in Australian terms, that efficiency of the 3 pillar system is worth $210B AUD per year in savings that we are able to spend elsewhere compared to somewhere like France. France spends as much as 16% of GDP on their pension.

To put this in real terms - In the coming years if they do not pair back their liability, they could spend as much as $790B AUD on pension liabiliies, vs Australia spending $70-100B AUD total per year.

Italy, Spain, Germany, Japan are all in a similar boat.....

They have government expenditure that high and and still rank well below Australia on the major global pension index's



We rank extremely highly in global metrics regarding support for retiree's relative to the rest of the world.





We are 6th on the Mercer Index and 7th on the Natixis Global Retirement Index.


Mobilising personal wealth is not a bad thing compared to global alternatives in terms of pensions. There are obviously other impacts to this like housing affordability to consider.

But you really need to understand the global impact of other systems and how Australia is the envy of most countries in this regard.

People complaining about the aged pension and lack of support is fairly wild. There certainly might need to be support at the very bottom income levels to support people without the required super, cash savings etc and to offset other economic impacts. However, the general data shows that our system is an extremely extremely efficient in it's current arrangement with a really high standard of living for retirees.

Now it's important to consider our income poverty rates (a % of income of pensions vs cost of living is high). This illustrates our relatively low state and government pensions liabilities vs cost of living.

The idea behind this is that you are drawing down savings and mandatory super withdrawals during the pension period of your life vs receiving set income.

It however gets back to my earlier point regarding the importance of supporting those still whom don't have that capability. Particularly in this coming generation who may not have had the super guarentee for a big portion of their working life and haven't amassed the assets to reitre.





That's part of my point. Our system is design to empower the middle class etc to invest, removing added burden on things like pension liability. They aren't meant to get the pension.

Most of these people aren't design to ever be on the pension as our current system enables them to amass wealth so we don't have to spend hundreds of billions in pension liabilities in the future. Hence our liabilities shrinking in the coming years, despite retiree's exploding.


70% of negative gearing is utilised by people with a taxable income of less than $80,000 per year.

It is not just a vehicle for the rich. It's functioning right through all income levels - high/middle/low as a function of our savings and wealth creation mechanisms for retirement.



Nearly 30% of all of those negative gearing are 39 or under also. The lowest age demographic % is actually those 60 and over. It debunks the boomer bashing in terms of hoarding and land banking investment properties.

Myths busted. Thanks for that

But the quote is percentage of taxpayers. What is it by taxpayer money?
 
70% of negative gearing is utilised by people with a taxable income of less than $80,000 per year.

Whats the income before negative gearing is applied? And whats these peoples net worth in assets, on average?

Without knowing these things, it’s a somewhat useless and/or misleading stat.
 
Whats the income before negative gearing is applied? And whats these peoples net worth in assets, on average?

Without knowing these things, it’s a somewhat useless and/or misleading stat.

Yes, I agree where you are coming from. But it's the data that's out there.

I think it's slightly disingenuous to assume that the vast majority of $80,000 marginal tax earners are negative gearing $100,000 per year on average if that is what you are alluding to regarding working the higher middle income earners into these lower income stats

Credit and serviceability simply wouldn't allow it under current rules. Nowhere even close to it.

You can't massively negative gear 6-7 houses on $180k per year under current servicing calcs.
 
It's a part of appreciating the entire super guarantee system and how it works somewhat hand in hand currently. We have a hybrid pension system which enables private wealth mobilisation so as to increase pension efficiency.

We have a 3 pillar system - 1. Aged Pension 2. Compulsory employer contributions to super and 3. voluntary savings and investment/cash/wealth savings.

Tax incentives that plenty criticise, like negative gearing, CGT discounts, SMSF and super tax incentives are critical in relieving pressure and stimulating investment = aggregate demand increasing.


Australia's pension liability is due to drop to 2% of GDP, despite the number of Australians over the age of 65 doubling by 2063. Not all of this is employer contributions. It's incentives like voluntary contributions, it's savings and wealth generation, there's self managed super funds etc.

The OECD for advanced economies spend as a percentage of GDP for their pension systems is 9-10.4%.

To put that in perspective, in Australian terms, that efficiency of the 3 pillar system is worth $210B AUD per year in savings that we are able to spend elsewhere compared to somewhere like France. France spends as much as 16% of GDP on their pension.

To put this in real terms - In the coming years if they do not pair back their liability, they could spend as much as $790B AUD on pension liabiliies, vs Australia spending $70-100B AUD total per year.

Italy, Spain, Germany, Japan are all in a similar boat.....

They have government expenditure that high and and still rank well below Australia on the major global pension index's



We rank extremely highly in global metrics regarding support for retiree's relative to the rest of the world.





We are 6th on the Mercer Index and 7th on the Natixis Global Retirement Index.


Mobilising personal wealth is not a bad thing compared to global alternatives in terms of pensions. There are obviously other impacts to this like housing affordability to consider.

But you really need to understand the global impact of other systems and how Australia is the envy of most countries in this regard.

People complaining about the aged pension and lack of support is fairly wild. There certainly might need to be support at the very bottom income levels to support people without the required super, cash savings etc and to offset other economic impacts. However, the general data shows that our system is an extremely extremely efficient in it's current arrangement with a really high standard of living for retirees.

Now it's important to consider our income poverty rates (a % of income of pensions vs cost of living is high). This illustrates our relatively low state and government pensions liabilities vs cost of living.

The idea behind this is that you are drawing down savings and mandatory super withdrawals during the pension period of your life vs receiving set income.

It however gets back to my earlier point regarding the importance of supporting those still whom don't have that capability. Particularly in this coming generation who may not have had the super guarentee for a big portion of their working life and haven't amassed the assets to reitre.





That's part of my point. Our system is design to empower the middle class etc to invest, removing added burden on things like pension liability. They aren't meant to get the pension.

Most of these people aren't design to ever be on the pension as our current system enables them to amass wealth so we don't have to spend hundreds of billions in pension liabilities in the future. Hence our liabilities shrinking in the coming years, despite retiree's exploding.


70% of negative gearing is utilised by people with a taxable income of less than $80,000 per year.

It is not just a vehicle for the rich. It's functioning right through all income levels - high/middle/low as a function of our savings and wealth creation mechanisms for retirement.



Nearly 30% of all of those negative gearing are 39 or under also. The lowest age demographic % is actually those 60 and over. It debunks the boomer bashing in terms of hoarding and land banking investment properties.

It’s almost like they’ve used a mechanism to reduce their taxable income …🤔
 
It’s almost like they’ve used a mechanism to reduce their taxable income …🤔

Even if that is the case and the number was $120k, does it really move the needle in this discussion?

My point was, it's a mechanism used and avilable throughout society and not isolated to ultra high income earners.
 
Even if that is the case and the number was $120k, does it really move the needle in this discussion?

My point was, it's a mechanism used and avilable throughout society and not isolated to ultra high income earners.

Well yes that’s why it needs to go…
With clever accounting someone on 500k can reduce there taxable to 80k
 
70% of the population earns $500k and reduces it down to $80k?

It's not possible in current lending laws.

That article wasn't 70% of the population.

It shows that a lot of younger people, with investment properties, run then at a loss of some level (or did in 2012), but not necessarily the cost of that loss to the taxpayer.

This is a more recent article that raises a few things, among those whether we should be incentivising housing as an investment option (IMO we shouldn't).


The benefits of these tax concessions are shared unequally, with more than two thirds of the concessions going to the top 10% of income earners, while the bottom half of taxpayers get less than one tenth of the concessions.
 
70% of negative gearing is utilised by people with a taxable income of less than $80,000 per year.

Correct should be

70% of individual taxpayers utilising negative gearing are people with a taxable income of less than $80k

The cost to the budget of the other 30% could be 10, 20, 30 times that of the 70%
 

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Yeah it appeared that many times on a page.

Pity I don't live in the electorate.

Nor will I vote for him if I did.

My social media feed is filled with people criticising Kate Chaney (the current teal) for having a voting record resembling bits and pieces of ALP, coalition and the Greens. Yes, they prefer a person voting 100% with the coalition as better representing the electorate than someone who isn't bound by party politics and votes for what they think their voters want. Do they think Tom White will represent Curtin better than an independent?

I'm hoping she is re-elected with an increased majority.
 
My social media feed is filled with people criticising Kate Chaney (the current teal) for having a voting record resembling bits and pieces of ALP, coalition and the Greens. Yes, they prefer a person voting 100% with the coalition as better representing the electorate than someone who isn't bound by party politics and votes for what they think their voters want. Do they think Tom White will represent Curtin better than an independent?

I'm hoping she is re-elected with an increased majority.
I would've had her pencilled in as the first teal to fall, but given the WA Election just gone I think she can hold her seat. The Facebook nutters are thankfully more of a minority than many think.
 
I've had the tv on in the background most of today.

I know it's much easier to plan your campaign spend from government, and I know it's a very limited sample size - but given how many people vote early now it's significant that the proportion of ads I've seen across various fox sports channels and youtube today has been about 75% ALP, about 20% Palmer's Puppetry of the Penishead Party, and about 5% Advance Australia.

Not sure I've seen a single thing from the Libs?

We all knew this election was coming, so it can't be that they don't have access to the ad space. Political parties always find ad space from vested interests even when it's full in any case. So have they got no money? They hated all the ads that they'd made pre-budget, proving that tax cut proper wedged them strategically? Or they've made a conscious decision to delay broad scale advertising for a week or 2?
Ads tailored by algorithm?
 
What a goose. Refusing to divulge where the PS 40000 cuts will come from? and IF they will contract out those jobs.
costing more. Someone needs to actually do the work.

Refusing to give energy details as well.
The media should be hammering him on this. Give us the details! Or in other words if you don't know, vote no, right?
 
My social media feed is filled with people criticising Kate Chaney (the current teal) for having a voting record resembling bits and pieces of ALP, coalition and the Greens. Yes, they prefer a person voting 100% with the coalition as better representing the electorate than someone who isn't bound by party politics and votes for what they think their voters want. Do they think Tom White will represent Curtin better than an independent?

I'm hoping she is re-elected with an increased majority.

I reckon it’s an ill. advised americanised strategy which will backfire as leaflets arrive in every household which normally doesn’t vote liberal.

I’m pretty happy how Ryan in kooyong votes, thanks for reminding me suckers
 
Police have confirmed that the images are not illegal. McCormack being of course the local sitting National Party member.



I bet they complain about "snowflakes"...
 
Wow, and the day after Dutton legitimately had a crack at the press saying there was no possible way for Labor to get a majority...all of a sudden you have a poll where Labor look on track to win anywhere up to 80 seats.

Dutton's arrogance on show for everyone to see, thought he could just walk this one in on a Trumpist "are you better off since last election" message when the actual message people are tuning into is, "can you imagine the bloodbath if the Libs had actually been in power the last three years?" Can tell you right now the working class would have been sacrificed to the inflation gods long ago with queues to Centrelink going on for miles.
We have a winner. There's enough people out there that will be fooled by Dutton and his parties rhetoric but we would be down the bottom of the rabbit hole if they were running things right now. They know it too and so do the media that's why they have worked their arse off trying to get people to forget what it was like in 2022.
 
We have a winner. There's enough people out there that will be fooled by Dutton and his parties rhetoric but we would be down the bottom of the rabbit hole if they were running things right now. They know it too and so do the media that's why they have worked their arse off trying to get people to forget what it was like in 2022.

Maybe the ‘let’s get australia back on track’ ill conceived slogan helps people think back to then…..when they sat on their hands, cancelled parliament except for a vanity project ‘religious discrimination bill’
 

2025 Federal Election: A Pox o' Both Your Houses


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