2nds Should the Crows reserves be in the SANFL?

[marty36]

Is there any thought that the VFL were so keen to kick out Frankston so they could free up a spot for us?

If Adelaide go VFL Port will too, they are no longer an SANFL club just a guest

 

[marty36]

If you believe the only money the AFL clubs provide to the SANFL comes from the silly "entry fee" then you are incredibly, incredibly wrong. It benefits the SANFL greatly to have two strong AFL clubs.

Winning games does not equal dominating. Winning finals does not mean dominating. Neither team has gone on extended stretches of games where they have been almost unbeatable. In fact both sides have looked perfectly suited to the SANFL level. Neither has looked too weak, or too strong. Beatable, but providing enough competition to keep the SANFL teams honest.

It was the SANFL who urged us to "play to the line" to protect the integrity of the competition. Would you rather we were completely uncompetitive? What purpose does that serve for anyone?

Look over the border? Really? What does that have to do with anything. Seeing as you brought it up, it tells me the SANFL system is a largely successful one. And the SANFL clubs are capable of matching it with strong reserves sides.

Both AFL sides have had successful years where their list remained largely in fact with few injuries, allowing us to play the majority of our list, and we still weren't good enough. Hell, in 2014, when Port played in the GF we had 19 AFL listed players and it actually hindered us. We were forced to field players just coming back from knee recos or other injuries.

The current system works. To say anything else is to deny the facts.

The next point can be rebutted if you just read my second paragraph. We have a select group of players yes, but if a particular player is too good at SANFL level they get removed and put up into the AFL. Name me a player that consistently played at SANFL level and looked better than anyone else at that level? It doesn't happen. Steven Summerton, a career SANFL footballer is our best player for Christs sake. What does that tell you about the level of players we're putting into the SANFL?

Our reserve teams are full of players who are not good enough for AFL level, or are developing their game. These players seem perfectly suited to a competition that is a step below the AFL no? They certainly arent superstars who'd rip the SANFL clubs a new one. As the results show.

Fans like you are the only ones jumping at shadows. You are terrified of a monster that hasn't even reared its head yet, and probably never will. There isn't much wrong with the current system. All you need to do is look at the results.

I'm wasting my breathe aren't I?

Win / win for everyone if the reserves teams play in either the VFL or AFL reserves

Can't see the problem

Don't you like win / win?

 

[chazwazza]

To be fair you've been told the answer to your gripes many times

And each day you wipe the slate clean and start again asking the same questions. Presumably hoping for a different answer

The AFL reserves teams are not subject to the salary cap so they are not breaking it. They just aren't

The point being supporters and clubs are unhappy about the current set up, it's not about looking for "different answers", it's about finding a model that suits all. That the clubs aren't happy would suggest they want change and are in a good position to get change.
Just because they're not subject to the cap doesn't mean they don't break it. It's a valid concern and argument when the SANFL clubs are held to a cap of $400k.
It's very hard to get better when you have limited access to better players and limited ability to pay better players more.

 

[Sanders]

Just because they're not subject to the cap doesn't mean they don't break it.

Yeah. Actually it does. By any definition it does.

 

[Elite Crow]

If Adelaide go VFL Port will too, they are no longer an SANFL club just a guest

Now that the SANFL no longer owns our license, any move can be done independently of Port. We don't have to care what they are doing and because of their history it will be harder for Port to leave.

 

[chazwazza]

If you believe the only money the AFL clubs provide to the SANFL comes from the silly "entry fee" then you are incredibly, incredibly wrong. It benefits the SANFL greatly to have two strong AFL clubs.

Winning games does not equal dominating. Winning finals does not mean dominating. Neither team has gone on extended stretches of games where they have been almost unbeatable. In fact both sides have looked perfectly suited to the SANFL level. Neither has looked too weak, or too strong. Beatable, but providing enough competition to keep the SANFL teams honest.

It was the SANFL who urged us to "play to the line" to protect the integrity of the competition. Would you rather we were completely uncompetitive? What purpose does that serve for anyone?

Look over the border? Really? What does that have to do with anything. Seeing as you brought it up, it tells me the SANFL system is a largely successful one. And the SANFL clubs are capable of matching it with strong reserves sides.

Both AFL sides have had successful years where their list remained largely in fact with few injuries, allowing us to play the majority of our list, and we still weren't good enough. Hell, in 2014, when Port played in the GF we had 19 AFL listed players and it actually hindered us. We were forced to field players just coming back from knee recos or other injuries.

The current system works. To say anything else is to deny the facts.

The next point can be rebutted if you just read my second paragraph. We have a select group of players yes, but if a particular player is too good at SANFL level they get removed and put up into the AFL. Name me a player that consistently played at SANFL level and looked better than anyone else at that level? It doesn't happen. Steven Summerton, a career SANFL footballer is our best player for Christs sake. What does that tell you about the level of players we're putting into the SANFL?

Our reserve teams are full of players who are not good enough for AFL level, or are developing their game. These players seem perfectly suited to a competition that is a step below the AFL no? They certainly arent superstars who'd rip the SANFL clubs a new one. As the results show.

Fans like you are the only ones jumping at shadows. You are terrified of a monster that hasn't even reared its head yet, and probably never will. There isn't much wrong with the current system. All you need to do is look at the results.

I'm wasting my breathe aren't I?

I have no problem with two strong AFL clubs in SA, and yes it's good for footy in general in the state.

By "entry fee" I assume you mean what Adelaide pay to be in the comp. Not sure of your point here it's pretty vague.

I'm not sure how you determine success or a dominant finals campaign if not by big wins and going deep into finals. I don't think anyone can argue that Adelaide didn't dominate Centrals and South in the finals.

I'm not arguing whether ALL teams should play to the line, you can, its about getting a model everyone is happy with. Personally I don't think capping the reserves teams to 14 AFL players is the answer, it defeats the purpose of having reserves teams.

I brought up trends across the borders as it gives similar view of the same problems under slightly different systems, at the moment I'd definitely say the SA model is better than the WA one, that's not to say the SA one can be improved.
As the SA model is only three years old and therefore a short base to gauge from, looking over the border gives a wider view of things, funnily enough coming up with the same problems.

The current system does work....for the AFL clubs, the SANFL clubs want change, they're the facts.

Cam Ellis-Yoleman, Grigg, Henderson, Mitchell. There's a few off the top of my head. For arguments sake I could throw in players like Colquhoun, Beech and Bonner who are very good SANFL standard players now competing weekly against their old SANFL clubs and others for AFL reserves teams. The problem with your argument here is that you're only looking at the players at the reserves teams, you're not looking at the players at the SANFL clubs which most are another step down from your so called rejects. It's easy to say "they're SANFL standard" but nearly all are a very good SANFL standard of player. It's easy to say "they're just kids" but SANFL clubs are also fielding many under 22's that aren't from the draft. Again, look at the full picture.

Fans like me want a fair and equal comp just like fans like you demand in the AFL. I bet you're guilty of jumping at monsters when it comes to GWS draft concessions or Sydneys COLA. God knows that some of the first supporters to cry poor or hard done by are Port supporters. Turn it up.

 

[redandblack]

Shane Grimm was Sturt's Football Manager this year They went top.

He's now working for Port Adelaide.

 

[Apsaalooke]

You say no reserves team has dominated. Port 2014 won every final bar the GF....just.
2016, Adelaide won both finals very very easily bar the prelim. How is that not dominating?
Maybe drive down to Noarlunga, spend some of your gracious AFL money and see what they think.

Maybe look outside of your own little sphere of concern and see similar, or worse, trends in the WAFL and VFL.
Have you looked, do you know what's been happening?
I'm guessing not.

You say it comes down to just paying your AFL listed reserves players more, have you considered that they're drafted from a select group of players that state league clubs have no access to in the AFL draft?
Have you considered that state league clubs are hobbled by a salary cap under $400k?
Again, I'm guessing not.

You state that half your reserves teams are teenagers, where are your stats with this and have you considered that the SANFL clubs are blooding teenagers outside of the AFL draft also?
Have you done your research on this?
Again, permit me but I'm guessing not.
Answer these questions and ask yourself just who's jumping at shadows.

And then got rolled by a rampant Sturt in the prelim.
As a Sturt supporter for far longer than a Crows fan, this was nearly as sweet as the winning the next week and I think enhanced their ultimate premiership triumph. Next year Adelaide will have injuries and the top-ups, most of whom aren't necessarily SANFL standard, will be needed more so diluting their so called dominance, as happened to Port this year.

South and Centrals simply weren't good enough, Sturt were.

 

[Jakksynn]

Shane Grimm was Sturt's Football Manager this year They went top.

He's now working for Port Adelaide.

And? The SANFL is a feeder league. Designed to develop players and coaches for the AFL. Losing staff is a part of that.

 

[1970crow]

From the way it read the $520k would include travel as they aren't paying the annual fee to join.

We don't have to do anything with Port, they can stay.

I can't see the VFL not cashing in on our need to join their comp. If talks break down with the SANFL then the VFL would be in a strong bargaining position. I read somewhere that the standalone clubs were after more cap or funding to help them compete. Slugging us and distributing the cash to those clubs might be something the VFL would think about.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Shane Grimm was Sturt's Football Manager this year They went top.

He's now working for Port Adelaide.

But that's no different from any employee .....you want to be in demand and have career and increased earnings opportunities?

You do yourself ....i guarantee it!

 

[WaynesWorld19]

The point being supporters and clubs are unhappy about the current set up, it's not about looking for "different answers", it's about finding a model that suits all. That the clubs aren't happy would suggest they want change and are in a good position to get change.
Just because they're not subject to the cap doesn't mean they don't break it. It's a valid concern and argument when the SANFL clubs are held to a cap of $400k.
It's very hard to get better when you have limited access to better players and limited ability to pay better players more.

In any competition, you seek to raise the bar of the competition / team quality ......there were no issues last season when the Crows were being beaten .....now there is

Seems to me the competition is seeking to bring the Crows back to their level, rather than raising their own bar .......the best team (Sturt) were still clearly the best and won the flag ...why the complaints?

 

[redandblack]

And? The SANFL is a feeder league. Designed to develop players and coaches for the AFL. Losing staff is a part of that.

It certainly wasn't designed to develop players and coaches for the AFL. it existed 100 years before the AFL.

It's also part of the Agreement that the AFL sides won't poach staff from the SANFL.

 

[redandblack]

But that's no different from any employee .....you want to be in demand and have career and increased earnings opportunities?

You do yourself ....i guarantee it!

Where have I said otherwise? Good luck to him. He was originally a Port player.

 

[feenix67]

Yeah. Actually it does. By any definition it does.

But youre being pedantic. The point is that the SANFL clubs are limited in terms of their talent acquisition, thus making them unable to compete on an even playing field.

 

[CrowsB4hoes]

Now that the SANFL no longer owns our license, any move can be done independently of Port. We don't have to care what they are doing and because of their history it will be harder for Port to leave.

Yep. Let's screw Port over for a change. Let them sign up to the SANFL with their handcuffs, then we go take Frankston's place in the AFL reserves league.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

It's also part of the Agreement that the AFL sides won't poach staff from the SANFL.

What?

Why on earth would that be the case?

Do SANFL clubs really want to put a handbrake on the careers of their staff? They wouldn't do it to players.

 

[chazwazza]

In any competition, you seek to raise the bar of the competition / team quality ......there were no issues last season when the Crows were being beaten .....now there is

Seems to me the competition is seeking to bring the Crows back to their level, rather than raising their own bar .......the best team (Sturt) were still clearly the best and won the flag ...why the complaints?

Incorrect. There's been issues from the start. Just because you may not have been aware of them counts for nothing.

 

[chazwazza]

But youre being pedantic. The point is that the SANFL clubs are limited in terms of their talent acquisition, thus making them unable to compete on an even playing field.

Sanders a pedant?????
Never. No. I refuse to believe it.

 

[Sanders]

But youre being pedantic. The point is that the SANFL clubs are limited in terms of their talent acquisition, thus making them unable to compete on an even playing field.

no, I'm not.

the implication is that the Crows reserves are breaking the rules. they're not. it's a ******* stupid point.

it's an irrelevancy.

what is pedantic is pointing out that no one gets paid a penny to play SANFL. there are no SANFL match fees, and the base contract is to be part of the AFL playing list, training etc.

 

[Sanders]

The current system does work....for the AFL clubs, the SANFL clubs want change, they're the facts.

do they? what evidence is there of this.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Where have I said otherwise? Good luck to him. He was originally a Port player.

sorry, it appeared in your post you were slighted that he was "stolen" from the SANFL

 

[redandblack]

What?

Why on earth would that be the case?

Do SANFL clubs really want to put a handbrake on the careers of their staff? They wouldn't do it to players.

No, they don't. They're just realistic that AFL clubs use their power to cherry-pick volunteer staff that keep SANFL clubs going.

Still happens, no SANFL club is opposing anyone taken, just a reasonable precaution to protect the clubs from a far more powerful organisation.

 

[redandblack]

I should add here that Adelaide aren't too bad with this and with the SANFL. Port are the opposite.

 

[redandblack]

no, I'm not.

the implication is that the Crows reserves are breaking the rules. they're not. it's a ******* stupid point.

it's an irrelevancy.

what is pedantic is pointing out that no one gets paid a penny to play SANFL. there are no SANFL match fees, and the base contract is to be part of the AFL playing list, training etc.

That's a very pedantic point to finish on.