Roast Negative only thread

[Jeffcrowe]

Selection was still a shambles for much of the season.

Crouch and Milera thrown into the side in R1 after missing all of 2021 and having interrupted preseasons.

Going back to the failed single KPD structure.

Dawson playing on the last line of defence.

Thilthorpe dropped after R1.

McHenry's gold pass.

Schoenberg seemingly without a role and in and out of the side.

ROB recalled after one week.

Doedee and Keays being picked each week despite being inhibited by injuries.

Hately played out of position despite some good performances in the middle.

Crouch in and out of the side, and played out of position at times.

Newchurch ignored when he was playing well at SANFL level.

Worrell ignored until the last month of the season.

Rowe and Davis selected despite being locked in as delists.

On the positive side, our use of Soligo was pretty good, and Berry started getting meaningful midfield minutes (helped by Sloane's unavailability). Gollant and Cook also got opportunities. We also finally started to move Sloane out of the middle (where he plays in 2023 remains to be seen). McAdam starting in the SANFL after an interrupted PS was also a good call - quality player but he needs to be 100% fit.

We aren’t in positive thread but their faith in Soligo from pre season form and the way they backed him in was prob the stand out positive

Would not surprise me if someone else this pre season eg Michaelanny or a second year like Taylor does the same thing

Time will tell

Fitting sloane in will be the big negative

 

[George Kramer]

We aren’t in positive thread but their faith in Soligo from pre season form and the way they backed him in was prob the stand out positive

Would not surprise me if someone else this pre season eg Michaelanny or a second year like Taylor does the same thing

Time will tell

Fitting sloane in will be the big negative

If we have a healthy list I just don’t see how Sloane fits at all.

It can’t be midfield, we already moved him out.

Forward line with how stacked it is? In place of McHenry I could live with but not Pedlar.

Defence, no chance.

Wing? Maybe, but again in place of players we need to develop.

He’d be the perfect Sub though but I just can’t see it.

 

[LeftyLuke]

If we have a healthy list I just don’t see how Sloane fits at all.

It can’t be midfield, we already moved him out.

Forward line with how stacked it is? In place of McHenry I could live with but not Pedlar.

Defence, no chance.

Wing? Maybe, but again in place of players we need to develop.

He’d be the perfect Sub though but I just can’t see it.

Sloane would be perfect in the SANFL off half back. Developing our future should be his role.

 

[1970crow]

Sloane would be perfect in the SANFL off half back. Developing our future should be his role.

no way he plays 2s outside of a tune up or 2 if he suffers a set back. Even then it's unlikely.

 

[LeftyLuke]

no way he plays 2s outside of a tune up or 2 if he suffers a set back. Even then it's unlikely.

I agree that they will find a spot for him regardless whether he deserves it or not, at the expense of a younger player which will stifle their development as we have seen with a player such as Worrell. But they shouldn't play him if he isn't in our first 22. I feel if the captaincy is taken off him there may be some accountability with his selection. If anyone thinks he is going to have any meaningful impact coming off an ACL at 33 they are mistaken.

I think the club needs to be looking towards the future and not rewarding the past. I genuinely feel his best spot for maximum impact on the club is helping with development in the seconds. He needs to realise that putting the club before himself is what is required.

 

[rabidcrow]

If we have a healthy list I just don’t see how Sloane fits at all.

It can’t be midfield, we already moved him out.

Forward line with how stacked it is? In place of McHenry I could live with but not Pedlar.

Defence, no chance.

Wing? Maybe, but again in place of players we need to develop.

He’d be the perfect Sub though but I just can’t see it.

I hope Pedlar has a great pre season and gets a good crack at it but as a betting man I think Sloane will be fit and ready to go round 1 - not convinced Pedlar will be. Pedlar will need to earn a spot by staying on the park for the first month of the season imo


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[AFC979810]

Rowe and Davis selected despite being locked in as delists.

For the life of me I just don't understand that.

Ben Davis had been on our list for 6 years. Why was he the sub for the last 4 games of 2022 if we were just going to delist him?

If we are gifting games to players like Davis - why not gift them to players like Newchurch, Nankervis, Taylor? Might do the world of good to give those guys a taste of AFL football, similar to what we did with Rory Sloane back in 2009.

Giving Rowe 17 games is just as baffling especially since we played him at the end of the season. Blind Freddy knew exactly the player James Rowe was. What did we hope to learn by playing him after round 10 in 2022?

 

[George Kramer]

For the life of me I just don't understand that.

Ben Davis had been on our list for 6 years. Why was he the sub for the last 4 games of 2022 if we were just going to delist him?

If we are gifting games to players like Davis - why not gift them to players like Newchurch, Nankervis, Taylor? Might do the world of good to give those guys a taste of AFL football, similar to what we did with Rory Sloane back in 2009.

Giving Rowe 17 games is just as baffling especially since we played him at the end of the season. Blind Freddy knew exactly the player James Rowe was. What did we hope to learn by playing him after round 10 in 2022?

Nicks was picking teams he thought had a better chance of winning without thinking long term

 

[AFC979810]

Nicks was picking teams he thought had a better chance of winning without thinking long term

That might apply to Rowe, but how in the world does it apply to Davis! Crazy stuff.

 

[George Kramer]

That might apply to Rowe, but how in the world does it apply to Davis! Crazy stuff.

I didn’t mind Davis, would have been interesting if he got a block of games as a starting player how he might have ended up

 

[1970crow]

For the life of me I just don't understand that.

Ben Davis had been on our list for 6 years. Why was he the sub for the last 4 games of 2022 if we were just going to delist him?

If we are gifting games to players like Davis - why not gift them to players like Newchurch, Nankervis, Taylor? Might do the world of good to give those guys a taste of AFL football, similar to what we did with Rory Sloane back in 2009.

Giving Rowe 17 games is just as baffling especially since we played him at the end of the season. Blind Freddy knew exactly the player James Rowe was. What did we hope to learn by playing him after round 10 in 2022?

We weren't trying to learn anything, we select the team that gets us closer go the oppos score, week in, week out, whether rebuilding or contending, selection philosophy is fixed. It's simple to understand. NVB actually said it, 'the best way to rebuild is to win'. Lock in continuity at both levels and that's how you best rebuild.

 

[Scorpus]

For the life of me I just don't understand that.

Ben Davis had been on our list for 6 years. Why was he the sub for the last 4 games of 2022 if we were just going to delist him?

If we are gifting games to players like Davis - why not gift them to players like Newchurch, Nankervis, Taylor? Might do the world of good to give those guys a taste of AFL football, similar to what we did with Rory Sloane back in 2009.

Giving Rowe 17 games is just as baffling especially since we played him at the end of the season. Blind Freddy knew exactly the player James Rowe was. What did we hope to learn by playing him after round 10 in 2022?

We have done this every year for many many years. The list of players we've done this with is extensive

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Nicks was picking teams he thought had a better chance of winning without thinking long term

For much of the year Nicks was trying to minimise loses as a priority over winning.
Hence we played Dawson mainly in defence.

We also played an injured Doedee over getting games into Worrell.

I understand you need a balance with enough senior players amongst the youngest group... but no point playing older players not performing like ROB for much of the year.

The selectors got plenty right blooding Soligo & Rachele from game 1, but there was plenty they got wrong too.

We still should be thinking more about the long term getting 50+ games into our top end talent asap to be a contender again.

 

[rabidcrow]

That might apply to Rowe, but how in the world does it apply to Davis! Crazy stuff.

The logical conclusion with Davis was they wanted the Taylor’s and Nankervis types to get a full game and playing in ball. How many times did we use the sub this year? And generally only for a quarter or so

Davis was the perfect sub - flexible, didn’t matter if he didn’t get any playing time to stifle development

Rowe is definitely harder to explain - my conclusion is IF the likes of Crouch, Macasey, Sholl had left in trade week we would have kept Rowe ( if a spot became available) but a spot didn’t so we had to cut him. I think in comparison to a couple of others he was unfortunately out of contract at the wrong time and also not a lock moving forward so they moved him out


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Golumless]

For the life of me I just don't understand that.

Ben Davis had been on our list for 6 years. Why was he the sub for the last 4 games of 2022 if we were just going to delist him?

If we are gifting games to players like Davis - why not gift them to players like Newchurch, Nankervis, Taylor? Might do the world of good to give those guys a taste of AFL football, similar to what we did with Rory Sloane back in 2009.

Giving Rowe 17 games is just as baffling especially since we played him at the end of the season. Blind Freddy knew exactly the player James Rowe was. What did we hope to learn by playing him after round 10 in 2022?

Re Davis: Something we should wised up with and have done a lot sooner, seeing how much of a zero-sum gain the sub is/was. After all, there is no guarantee of gametime or consistency. The sub is the perfect position for a player who you don't really care about in the mid-term.

Re Rowe: He was a best 22 player in 2022. Unfortunately for Jimmy, he was just the one who didn't have a contract when we got Rankine across the line (and also in the position Rankine was likely taking), he got delisted for it. If it was Murphy or McHenry in that situation where they were the only one of the three OOC, they too would have been flicked. Nothing in that outside of a reminder of how precarious life can be as a role player in an AFL side.

Rebuilds/tanks/whatever you want to call it aren't about playing kids willy nilly and trying random s**t out per se. It's about putting your list in a position that even your best side is going to lose a lot (both to get high draft picks and to keep the salary cap spend low to be able to hit the market), whilst being in a position that it's easy to get the kids who have talent/performances to demand to be selected gametime and (if they are able to earn it) key roles in a side.

For much of the year Nicks was trying to minimise loses as a priority over winning.
Hence we played Dawson mainly in defence.

We also played an injured Doedee over getting games into Worrell.

I understand you need a balance with enough senior players amongst the youngest group... but no point playing older players not performing like ROB for much of the year.

The selectors got plenty right blooding Soligo & Rachele from game 1, but there was plenty they got wrong too.

We still should be thinking more about the long term getting 50+ games into our top end talent asap to be a contender again.

No, Nicks was prioritising winning with everything he did (as he should be if he's determined to not waste ours and his time). He's also capable enough of a coach to realise the main pathway for a team who lacks the player quality to outgun teams to win is to maximise defence and try to grind teams down.

Take Dawson in defense as an example. This is 100% a move that prioritises short term winning over everything else, if you do not have a productive half back line - which we didn't with Smith beginning to slow down and our other half backs being mediocre in 2022. After all, maximising a teams ability to counter-punch is the best way to generate scoring chances and it's more important to have your best ball movers at the start of that chain (i.e. getting easy-ish ball at half back) then the mid-to-end points because it increases the chance that a team to be able to surge forward and even mediocre ball movement is going to generate scoring opportunities more often then not once they are able to move the ball quickly against a disorganized defence.

 

[George Kramer]

Re Davis: Something we should wised up with and have done a lot sooner, seeing how much of a zero-sum gain the sub is/was. After all, there is no guarantee of gametime or consistency. The sub is the perfect position for a player who you don't really care about in the mid-term.

Re Rowe: He was a best 22 player in 2022. Unfortunately for Jimmy, he was just the one who didn't have a contract when we got Rankine across the line (and also in the position Rankine was likely taking), he got delisted for it. If it was Murphy or McHenry in that situation where they were the only one of the three OOC, they too would have been flicked. Nothing in that outside of a reminder of how precarious life can be as a role player in an AFL side.

Rebuilds/tanks/whatever you want to call it aren't about playing kids willy nilly and trying random s**t out per se. It's about putting your list in a position that even your best side is going to lose a lot (both to get high draft picks and to keep the salary cap spend low to be able to hit the market), whilst being in a position that it's easy to get the kids who have talent/performances to demand to be selected gametime and (if they are able to earn it) key roles in a side.



No, Nicks was prioritising winning with everything he did (as he should be if he's determined to not waste ours and his time). He's also capable enough of a coach to realise the main pathway for a team who lacks the player quality to outgun teams to win is to maximise defence and try to grind teams down.

Take Dawson in defense as an example. This is 100% a move that prioritises short term winning over everything else, if you do not have a productive half back line - which we didn't with Smith beginning to slow down and our other half backs being mediocre in 2022. After all, maximising a teams ability to counter-punch is the best way to generate scoring chances and it's more important to have your best ball movers at the start of that chain (i.e. getting easy-ish ball at half back) then the mid-to-end points because it increases the chance that a team to be able to surge forward and even mediocre ball movement is going to generate scoring opportunities more often then not once they are able to move the ball quickly against a disorganized defence.

It was either Nicks or Burns blamed the size of the losses on going for the win when they were close enough, the Gold Coast game was one of them, so no he wasn’t always for the win

 

[AFC979810]

The logical conclusion with Davis was they wanted the Taylor’s and Nankervis types to get a full game and playing in ball. How many times did we use the sub this year? And generally only for a quarter or so

Davis was the perfect sub - flexible, didn’t matter if he didn’t get any playing time to stifle development

If thats the reason - why wasn't Davis the Sub at the beginning of the season? Surely our youngsters are better off at the beginning of the year either having a full game at AFL or SANFL?

Why did we select 1 game player Soligo as the sub in rd 2? Why use 6 game Luke Pedlar as the (unused) sub in week 3 and 9? Why use 7 game player Bradyen Cook as the Sub in rounds 4 and 19.

Not to mention using out of form Harry Schoenburg as the sub in Rd 7 and 12.

Would happily accept it if we said - alright Sub role is complete garbage - lets just have AFL ready versatile Ben Davis be our permanent sub.

Rowe is definitely harder to explain - my conclusion is IF the likes of Crouch, Macasey, Sholl had left in trade week we would have kept Rowe ( if a spot became available) but a spot didn’t so we had to cut him. I think in comparison to a couple of others he was unfortunately out of contract at the wrong time and also not a lock moving forward so they moved him out


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Fair enough - but we still would have known there was a legit chance of us not re-signing him. Why not invest those games into youngsters who were a lock to be on the list in 2023.

 

[AFC979810]

Re Davis: Something we should wised up with and have done a lot sooner, seeing how much of a zero-sum gain the sub is/was. After all, there is no guarantee of gametime or consistency. The sub is the perfect position for a player who you don't really care about in the mid-term.

We figured that out as a rebuilding side in the last 5 rounds of 2022? Why not use it for players who haven't played an AFL game? Give them a week where they get to experience the big time?

Re Rowe: He was a best 22 player in 2022. Unfortunately for Jimmy, he was just the one who didn't have a contract when we got Rankine across the line (and also in the position Rankine was likely taking), he got delisted for it. If it was Murphy or McHenry in that situation where they were the only one of the three OOC, they too would have been flicked. Nothing in that outside of a reminder of how precarious life can be as a role player in an AFL side.

Surely thats an issue. Out of finals contention after round 10 - surely those are the list discussions that need to be had. Everyone knew what Rowe brings and what his limitations are. Surely we were better off using those games on players who would be there in 2023. Not to mention, Rowe isn't some amazing leader that can help out in non statistical roles. He is a small forward with less than 40 games that we were cutting.

Rebuilds/tanks/whatever you want to call it aren't about playing kids willy nilly and trying random s**t out per se. It's about putting your list in a position that even your best side is going to lose a lot (both to get high draft picks and to keep the salary cap spend low to be able to hit the market), whilst being in a position that it's easy to get the kids who have talent/performances to demand to be selected gametime and (if they are able to earn it) key roles in a side.

Well then why play Rowe? This goes against everything you are saying. Surely playing Newchurch hurts us at AFL level, but is possibly beneficial long term.

 

[AFC979810]

We have done this every year for many many years. The list of players we've done this with is extensive

Not doubting ya, but any examples? Out of contract young players who we played extensively.

 

[Scorpus]

Not doubting ya, but any examples? Out of contract young players who we played extensively.

I don't think there are many young players but there are lots of players we've made the decision to move on at the end of the season but continued to play.

Biggest couple that come to mind are Matthew Wright (delisted) and Jarryd Lyons (refused to give a decent contract) among others like Greenwood, Keath, Kelly and Hartigan

 

[jackster83]

I don't think there are many young players but there are lots of players we've made the decision to move on at the end of the season but continued to play.

Biggest couple that come to mind are Matthew Wright (delisted) and Jarryd Lyons (refused to give a decent contract) among others like Greenwood, Keath, Kelly and Hartigan

Henderson was another one. Dropped after a BOG game and then delisted.

That one came back to bite us too, especially as he would have been the ideal replacement for Smith and/or McGovern in the '17 finals.

 

[Scorpus]

Henderson was another one. Dropped after a BOG game and then delisted.

That one came back to bite us too, especially as he would have been the ideal replacement for Smith and/or McGovern in the '17 finals.

Yeah I remember that, wasn't the rumour we were deliberately avoiding a trigger clause in his contract, but played him right to the limit of it?

 

[1970crow]

Yeah I remember that, wasn't the rumour we were deliberately avoiding a trigger clause in his contract, but played him right to the limit of it?

Yep. Had he played the first final he’d have hit his trigger.

 

[rabidcrow]

If thats the reason - why wasn't Davis the Sub at the beginning of the season? Surely our youngsters are better off at the beginning of the year either having a full game at AFL or SANFL?

Why did we select 1 game player Soligo as the sub in rd 2? Why use 6 game Luke Pedlar as the (unused) sub in week 3 and 9? Why use 7 game player Bradyen Cook as the Sub in rounds 4 and 19.

Not to mention using out of form Harry Schoenburg as the sub in Rd 7 and 12.

Would happily accept it if we said - alright Sub role is complete garbage - lets just have AFL ready versatile Ben Davis be our permanent sub.



Fair enough - but we still would have known there was a legit chance of us not re-signing him. Why not invest those games into youngsters who were a lock to be on the list in 2023.

In terms of the sub you are unlikely to use the same player all the time - or even the same strategy. Late in the year the Sanfl side was fighting for finals and was much more important than the sub role for some of those guys - making finals as a group and playing finals is excellent development opp outside of AFL games

Rowe - can’t argue it’s odd. 30 something games in. 2 years and delisted straight away


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[jenny61_99]

Who is this?

The guy who was a major reason we won back to back premierships in 97/98.