Religion The Bible: Literal, figurative, bulldust?

[Gethelred]

To clearly delineate conversation between threads, this thread is for specifically bible talk; if you're debating biblical historicity or lack of it, if you're talking interpretation, this is the thread for you.

Standard board rules apply. Go nuts.

 

[evolved2]

Spot on.
Like you, have always marvelled at nature, and the intricate working of the human body, brain, organs- talk about the perfect symphony- and they insist it is not of God.

You have the choice to understand anatomy through biological evolution or a book of fiction written by iron age goat herders.

 

[evolved2]

Why do we need to provide evidence for God.

You don't unless you expect others to accept your claims.

I'm happy to live without the knowledge of the indefinable God.

Ignorance is bliss.

Nothing you propose excludes the fact that God always existed and created all things.

This argument again?

You can't disprove the Flying Spaghetti Monster so he's real. Checkmate.

 

[Roylion]

Why do we need to provide evidence for God.

You're making a claim that 'God' exists. How do you know this?

I'm happy to live without the knowledge of the indefinable God.

I'm happy to live without the notion of a god. "God" if it exists at all is unknowable. I therefore don't bother with it.

Nothing you propose excludes the fact that God always existed and created all things.

It's not a fact. It's an unsubstantiated claim.

 

[Vdubs]

You don't unless you expect others to accept your claims.

Ignorance is bliss.

This argument again?

You can't disprove the Flying Spaghetti Monster so he's real. Checkmate.

I don't.
Not so.
Are there billions of FSM devotees? If so, why? There might be something to it- but in all seriousness, you have the Bible, you have the followers, you have changed lives, you have purpose, peace, meaning and rules for living, and you have as much evidence as you need. Pretty banal argument from you to equate Jesus Christ with FSM
Whether you feel great for ploughing through history to suit your humanistic slant, great, but because God is unknowable for you is NOT the case for billions of people who have a relationship with God.
What do you think of the argument that Satan is at work in those people who deliberately look at ways to disprove God and renounce what faith they had?
Do you not believe in Satan?

 

[Vdubs]

You're making a claim that 'God' exists. How do you know this?



I'm happy to live without the notion of a god. "God" if it exists at all is unknowable. I therefore don't bother with it.


It's not a fact. It's an unsubstantiated claim.

You do not accept the FACT that as Christians, we experience God on a daily basis, through prayer, meditation on His word, music, life, nature, answered prayer, encounters, radical life-changing conversions, His spirit is active in our lives.
Those not in receipt of this can scoff and go back to their research, but it is real

 

[Roylion]

You do not accept the FACT that as Christians,

This is a claim, not a fact.

we experience God on a daily basis, through prayer, meditation on His word,

It is an unsubstiated claim that the Bible is God's 'word'.

music, life, nature,

This is a claim that these things are created by 'God'.

answered prayer, encounters, radical life-changing conversions,

This is a matter of faith only. Faith is based upon a hope or trust that something is true despite a lack of supporting evidence or proof.

Bertrand Russell, who labelled himself an agnostic by saying God is unknowable, but lived as an atheist (in other words, lived as if there is no God) said...

"Where there is evidence, no one speaks of 'faith'. We do not speak of faith that two and two are four or that the earth is round. We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence."

Those not in receipt of this can scoff and go back to their research, but it is real

You might consider it is 'real', but that it is 'real' is merely a matter of opinion. There is/was real belief in other deities and supernatural events such as Mohammed splitting the moon, but that does not mean those deities actually existed or the event actually occurred

 

[Roylion]

I don't.
Not so.
Are there billions of FSM devotees? If so, why?

This is nothing more than Argumentum ad populum. That something is considered to be true or good solely because it is popular.

There might be something to it- but in all seriousness, you have the Bible, you have the followers, you have changed lives, you have purpose, peace, meaning and rules for living, and you have as much evidence as you need.

These are merely unsubstantiated claims. Where is the evidence?

Pretty banal argument from you to equate Jesus Christ with FSM

On what grounds? Are not both believed in by faith?

What do you think of the argument that Satan is at work in those people who deliberately look at ways to disprove God and renounce what faith they had?

I can't disprove God. Nor do I wish to. God, if it exists is unknowable. By you. And me. However given it is you that is making a claim to truth, I'm asking for supporting evidence for you claim. Otherwise all you are doing on here is proselytizing your belief system.

And surely you dont expect your claims to truth to go unchallenged in a thread such as this?

Do you not believe in Satan?

Why should I believe in Satan?

Satan is merely a product of the human imagination.

 

[Total Power]

He did that too.

Lol...ok. Shiva did the same to me too.

So...

 

[Total Power]

Spot on.
Like you, have always marvelled at nature, and the intricate working of the human body, brain, organs- talk about the perfect symphony- and they insist it is not of God.

The body and brain didn't get here in 1 day, it took 4 billion years, you realise that yeah? intricate works on human body does not point to any intelligent design, ID is not science. There are PLENTY of blemishes in our body, if i list them....you will run away again. Read the Blind watchmaker for example.

 

[Total Power]

Garbage. Not ENTIRELY. Part process maybe.

Part process of what? Evolution is extremely random and dependent on the environment. How is it a guided one like you suggested? People like Stephen J Gould, who suggested guided evolution once, withdrew their hypothesis later on? you realise that right?

 

[Total Power]

You do not accept the FACT that as Christians, we experience God on a daily basis

So do Muslims and Hindus, so what? As if special pleading is an argument? Ah yeah Trinity blah blah blah, i have clearly shown you how it's a made up concept, yet nothing changes your mind, even if the evidence hit you flat on your face.

Must be fun living life like that.

, through prayer, meditation on His word, music, life, nature, answered prayer, encounters, radical life-changing conversions

It's happening, as i speak. So many believers converted into Islam after a life changing experience. So those are false?

, His spirit is active in our lives.

I agree, living in your head, rent free.

Those not in receipt of this can scoff and go back to their research,

You will not take no for an answer. So why say this? it's true cause me and another 10,000 people told me so. What about the rest? well it doesn't matter i assume?

Aristotle once said , testimonials are worst form of witness out there due to existing bias that works in tandem. You are a prime example of that. Why would the Hindus lie about Krishna? ever thought about that?

So how is there one god? many gods or none.

but it is real

As real as your claim...bulldust.

 

[Rosscoe 17]

Karma is just a function of humans being social animals. Most of our time as a species has been in small tribes - the modern socially isolated West is the anomaly. Reciprocal social behaviour is the norm.

The fact you and Dubsy think anyone is trying to disprove god goes to show you lack understanding of logic(amongst other things like science and church history). That's what really separates you from me. You're ignorant.

Reaping what you so or karma as you put it, is way more than social interaction it is a natural justice.

You and Roylion have admitted that God can not be disproved; TP seems to be convinced he can. You can call me ignorant all you like; but you guys have shown me nothing conclusive to your assertions.

 

[evolved2]

I don't.

Fair enough. Do you think Christian apologetics should be enough to convince a logically minded atheist that biblegod is real?

Not so.

Are you interested in learning about how humans came to be, how the church came to be, and how the bible was formed? You and Rossy seem happy to be ignorant about subjects that I (and a couple other posters here) view as important for those who want THE TRUTH.

Are there billions of FSM devotees? If so, why? There might be something to it- but in all seriousness, you have the Bible, you have the followers, you have changed lives, you have purpose, peace, meaning and rules for living, and you have as much evidence as you need. Pretty banal argument from you to equate Jesus Christ with FSM

I've experienced all of that (other than rules) as an atheist. There's nothing Christiany can give me that I don't already have other than the promise of an afterlife. However, that's not a credible claim because it has the same level of proof as all other such promises - zero.

Whether you feel great for ploughing through history to suit your humanistic slant, great, but because God is unknowable for you is NOT the case for billions of people who have a relationship with God.

God isn't unknowable to me - that's Roy's argument. My claim is that god doesn't exist.

What do you think of the argument that Satan is at work in those people who deliberately look at ways to disprove God and renounce what faith they had?

I would have agreed with that when I was a Christian.

Do you not believe in Satan?

I don't believe in anything supernatural, including satan. If the bible was true, I'd view the devil as the good guy of the story.

 

[Total Power]

Reaping what you so or karma as you put it, is way more than social interaction it is a natural justice.

You and Roylion have admitted that God can not be disproved; TP seems to be convinced he can. You can call me ignorant all you like; but you guys have shown me nothing conclusive to your assertions.

Stop making s**t up, i never said God can be disproved. But you can debunk the Bible creation/historical narrative.

God vs god of religion are two different things.

 

[evolved2]

You do not accept the FACT that as Christians, we experience God on a daily basis, through prayer, meditation on His word, music, life, nature, answered prayer, encounters, radical life-changing conversions, His spirit is active in our lives.
Those not in receipt of this can scoff and go back to their research, but it is real

It's a feeling, a sense, a subjective 'knowing' - these things can be created artificially.

God doesn't answer prayers. You have a case of confirmation bias. The peace you gain from prayer is because it's a form of meditation and self-soothing.

In fact, god doesn't communicate with you and Rossy at all. You're trying to convince yourself that he does, but there are times when the truth seeps through and brings you doubt. I know it even if you won't admit it.

Truth comes from doubt, not faith.

 

[Total Power]

God doesn't answer prayers. You have a case of confirmation bias. The peace you gain from prayer is because it's a form of meditation and self-soothing.

If you pray and it happens, he answered his prayers and if he prays and doesn't get it, well god is putting me to test, he has a plan for all of us.

It's a win/win situation.

 

[evolved2]

Part process of what? Evolution is extremely random and dependent on the environment. How is it a guided one like you suggested? People like Stephen J Gould, who suggested guided evolution once, withdrew their hypothesis later on? you realise that right?

That's interesting. I haven't heard of SJG before - why did he change his mind on guided evolution?

There are too many flaws in human anatomy for evolution to be guided by a perfect god. It's a better answer than creationism, but guided evolution makes no sense.

 

[Total Power]

That's interesting. I haven't heard of SJG before - why did he change his mind on guided evolution?

There are too many flaws in human anatomy for evolution to be guided by a perfect god. It's a better answer than creationism, but guided evolution makes no sense.

It's a long read, but to sum it up...there's too much of a disadvantage starting with giving birth. Quoting him (one of the main problems with evolution)

"The main problem is that the birth canal passes through the pelvis, where space is limited. However, evolution has also equipped humans with big brains – which creates the need for a big skull. The skull simply cannot pass through the pelvis if it is too big, and evolution has solved this problem by allowing humans to give birth to children at a much more premature stage than in related species like the chimpanzee and the gorilla”

A creative "designer" or engineer would not have had much trouble finding another solution. For example, childbirth would have been much easier if the opening of the birth canal was placed a little higher up the body, in the bone-free area between the pelvis and ribs. In this area, the fetus would not have to pass through a narrow opening in the bony skeleton on the way out. Human surgeons developed this particular solution – the Caesarean section – a long time ago.

 

[evolved2]

Reaping what you so or karma as you put it, is way more than social interaction it is a natural justice.

You and Roylion have admitted that God can not be disproved; TP seems to be convinced he can. You can call me ignorant all you like; but you guys have shown me nothing conclusive to your assertions.

If you tell me that an elephant is living in the MCG, and I look on the ground, through every stand, the museum, changerooms, everywhere to no avail. I see no sign of an elephant and no evidence this elephant ever set foot on the MCG - not even a footprint or elephant dung.

What should I conclude?

I can't prove god isn't real to your satisfaction, but I can and have done so to mine. Gnostic theists are as delusional as those who believe in lizard people.

True justice doesn't exist in this world, which is why you have to believe it happens in the unproven afterlife. People have an innate psychological need to see the world as just because it makes life more predictable. Look up just world hypothesis if you want to learn something, though I presume you don't.

 

[evolved2]

It's a long read, but to sum it up...there's too much of a disadvantage starting with giving birth. Quoting him (one of the main problems with evolution)

"The main problem is that the birth canal passes through the pelvis, where space is limited. However, evolution has also equipped humans with big brains – which creates the need for a big skull. The skull simply cannot pass through the pelvis if it is too big, and evolution has solved this problem by allowing humans to give birth to children at a much more premature stage than in related species like the chimpanzee and the gorilla”

A creative "designer" or engineer would not have had much trouble finding another solution. For example, childbirth would have been much easier if the opening of the birth canal was placed a little higher up the body, in the bone-free area between the pelvis and ribs. In this area, the fetus would not have to pass through a narrow opening in the bony skeleton on the way out. Human surgeons developed this particular solution – the Caesarean section – a long time ago.

Fundies will see that as more proof of gods existence.

To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”
Gen 3:16

 

[Total Power]

Fundies will see that as more proof of gods existence.

To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”
Gen 3:16

The problem is, they are still wrong. This 'design' issue got nothing to do with pain, but fatality rates were astronomically high prior to C-section , both for the mother and the newborn.The fatality rates were 500 times higher and every 1 out of 10 birth resulted in death for either the mother/child.

Hardly proves these fundies right.

 

[evolved2]

The problem is, they are still wrong. This 'design' issue got nothing to do with pain, but fatality rates were astronomically high prior to C-section , both for the mother and the newborn.The fatality rates were 500 times higher and every 1 out of 10 birth resulted in death for either the mother/child.

Hardly proves these fundies right.

I knew a couple of Christian women who were believing for pain-free labor because Jesus redeemed them from the curse.

Let's just say their prayers weren't answered.

 

[Total Power]

I knew a couple of Christian women who were believing for pain-free labor because Jesus redeemed them from the curse.

Let's just say their prayers weren't answered.

Nature has it's own course, do not give two hoots about any Gods. I mean -The need for women to menstruate in order to be able to reproduce, enough said.

Human eye for example, our noses for example are far inferior than many species. Now let me get my reading glasses to see if i have any typos.

LOL

 

[evolved2]

Nature has it's own course, do not give two hoots about any Gods. I mean -The need for women to menstruate in order to be able to reproduce, enough said.

Human eye for example, our noses for example are far inferior than many species. Now let me get my reading glasses to see if i have any typos.

LOL

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
Douglas Adams

 

[Roylion]

R

You and Roylion have admitted that God can not be disproved;

God cannot be disproved, but neither can you prove the existance of 'god'.

but you guys have shown me nothing conclusive to your assertions.

What assertions?