Autopsy Round 9, 2024: Hawthorn v St.Kilda

[littlecreatures]

I’d rather a clear direction. North is at least clear in what its path is. We’re absolutely not imo. Half in rebuild, half in trying to play finals this year. Usually winds up with a poor outcome.

The only clear direction Norf have had is down the ladder since 2019 lol. Let’s be real, they absolutely cocked their rebuild as a result of lacking direction which is why they’re stuck in the cycle they are in now

 

[littlecreatures]

No, if he was a half-decent tap ruckman, he wouldn't have to roost it forward.

When his disposals are 6:1 kicks to handballs and he's turning over more than a third of his possessions, he's not only turning the ball over, but he's consolidating uncontested possession for the opposition.

No wonder our midfield can't work their way into any games. 'Protecting' the midfield is burning the midfield.

'Oh well, guess that try didn't work, now we play zone for another two minute stretch and hope to turn it over before the forwards have dropped back too far to have an impact'

Fortunately for Marshall's player value, there's no public 'Effective Clearance' stat to tell the real story.


View attachment 1986508

And tap it down to what, the one paced midfield that can’t transition from inside to outside? Hence why Ro’s roosting it forward, because we’re just turning it over absorbing pressure in the contest, but lack of setup and movement forward of ball isn’t helping either, so really leaves no options for the Ruck who isn’t the underlying issue.

 

[PandaG]

Which kid are you gonna pick ahead of Bonner?

Hastie - nope he's already playing.

McLennan - getting 15 possessions a game in the VFL - nope!!!

Arie - he's 194 cm tall defender - so are you dropping one of Wilkie or Battle as well?

Liam O'Connell - well he's only been playing the game for 3 months so I doubt it.

Battle fwd
Arie back
Bonner out - butcher

 

[gringo2011]

One of the issues is by talent, it should be our strongest line. Most of the starting players (at least when Higgins and Butler are in the side) have multiple sustained periods of their careers that show they are good players. But whatever we are doing at the moment isn't letting any of them play near their best.

Or they aren’t as good as we’d hoped. We ruined King by not keeping someone to let him phase in. Snags is a very uneven player and Butler is cooked.

 

[wannabewinner]

It wasn't a trade, and Gresham was not worth the money he wanted.

It’s not a trade. It's a trade-off to get Gresham to Essendon. In return, Saints got Collard in the draft. Collard’s not ready yet.

 

[gringo2011]

Garcia is impressive. Will be a useful midfielder for us. Will keep getting a game in front of Collard you would think as Collard is v slight.

Hard to understand why we haven't manouevred our way into the mid-season draft? Surely the 5th best player in all the state leagues would be of some value to us.

Should hobble half the list and replace them with some state league guys.

 

[NoisyMinor]

And tap it down to what, the one paced midfield that can’t transition from inside to outside? Hence why Ro’s roosting it forward, because we’re just turning it over absorbing pressure in the contest, but lack of setup and movement forward of ball isn’t helping either, so really leaves no options for the Ruck who isn’t the underlying issue.

Myth.

Seems to be a pretty even spread between everyone in the middle.

Now, if you want to claim that one player in particular was failing to stop Newcombe / Worpel, then you might have a point.





Having Marshall dump turnovers all day cuts out their ability to at least halve the ledger. Winning a tap isn't a guarantee to win the ball from the stoppage, but it does allow you to direct it to your own traffic.

Dumping a finger-breaking mongrel punt to a forward 40m out with a defender right next to them as a game plan is moronic. We may as well have kept Gresham.

A) It hopes to generate enough marks just inside 50 that naturally generate shots,

B) It hopes that forward is actually going to lift their arms and contest the drop effectively while dealing with unpredictable flight,

C) It hopes said forward is going to be accurate from distance,

D) It leaves crumbers in no man's land if it's not directly marked by the opposition and allows a slingshot through an open midfield.

 

[gringo2011]

I'm usually pretty positive about the team but play the same inept midfield week after week is mind boggling , Owens needs time in the midfield , he can at least fight for the ball - Seb Ross just is not good enough sorry to say and needs to be played as a sub or at Sandringham.
I fully expect Dow to be brought straight into the side next week because we can't keep rolling out the same crap.
Our weak point is the midfield and until we we fix it we will be battling to beat any team.

Dow has been playing like Ross at Sandringham. Looks weeks off. Jones probably next best

 

[gringo2011]

Come on mate, you really think if you were a North fan you'd be going "all good guys we have a clear direction". Go check out their weekly autopsy threads.

I’m 5 years where all other clubs have jumped us but our old guys are hitting retirement what then.

 

[wannabewinner]

Gresham is playing some decent footy at the minute but not sure he's why they are playing well/why we aren't...

In the end, it's 18 players on the field. The bombers 18 is playing better than the saints. It's a case of more mature bodies and experienced players vs a rebuilding team.


How many saints players benefitted from Gresham taking away some attention!? Right now Gresham’s replaced with young kids.

 

[wannabewinner]

The reality is that among a bunch of melts, this is the worst post of the lot.

Every word is dripping of irrelevance.

Sure. Here is another irrelevant post.

Acres helped Carlton win a final.

Gresham will help bombers also win their final.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Or they aren’t as good as we’d hoped. We ruined King by not keeping someone to let him phase in. Snags is a very uneven player and Butler is cooked.

I'm starting to think that Richo was the best coach ever, keeping us competitive despite the retirement of club champions, replace by diabolical drafting.

His speeches were boring .... SO &^%*ing WHAT!!!!!

 

[gringo2011]

Far from our biggest issue at all, but just relly really need to vent about something.

I counted 8 clearances between Marshall and Steele from a stoppage where they turned and kicked the ball directly forward. The ball went low and somewhere between 15 - 30 metres forward. Most were inside 50s, but not all.

Hawthorn either marked or picked up the ball uncontested every time. Every single one. Only 2 or 3 times did I even see a St.Kilda jumper in the tv frame

8 times! What the actual f*ing f**!! And I only started counting in the second quarter (and I am not watching a replay of that game). 8!!

Given how many times Marshall grabs the ball and dump kicks it forward, why is there never a St.Kilda player standing there?? Is the logic to free up space? If so, WHY TF don't we ever man up the Hawthorn player standing alone in that space??

WHAT THE ACTUAL F***????

Steele was turning over a lot of footy today. Looks like he’s playing jabbed. Was dishing off a lot too.

 

[gringo2011]

It wasn't a trade, and Gresham was not worth the money he wanted.

Probably not but we’ll pay Rory Lobb $2 million a year to spend minimum cap next year

 

[NoisyMinor]

Here's another one to bake some noodles:




Guess why none of our forwards beside Owens have shaken a stick at contested possessions?

They all get burned by dump kicks that get intercepted or easily repelled. The rest of the team seem to be doing OK with contested possessions, so speed or no speed, they're winning plenty of the ball.

The ball movement stinks of week old cat piss.

 

[MrFoster]

System too. They know when to block and to move, they kick into space ahead of the player for them to run on to. We are so embarrassingly bad at everything but chaotic pressure. We turn sides that are better than us into us and occasionally beat them but we are not getting any better playing like it's 2009.

The system is definitely lacking, we’re playing like the Richo/Ratten era, basically still have players from that era + new kids.. When you do that for 5-10 years, maybe your skills/game instinct are just fixed.. once you become a fumbly and headless chook, difficult to coach that our..

30 possessions, 700 metres gained, pretty much the only bloke in the team who can actually hit a forward on the lead - Bonner is not the problem.

A totally non existent clearance strategy (unless the plan is actually just hack it foward out of a contest and f***ing hope it goes near a Saints player) is the real problem.

Exactly, in a better team with a better midfield, Bonner is a jet.

Our midfield is a complete mess.. Trying to paper over the cracks.. Marshall can’t ruck, grabbing the ball from the ruck and hack kick forward is not high percentage, ruck should either bring the football to advantage of a team mate or win the ball then handball to a midfield..

 

[PJays]

What a bunch of hot takes in this thread

We're 3-6 after a tough fixture and losing 5 games by 10 points or less

After reading some of these posts you'd think we were getting belted every week

As bad as the first 9 weeks have been, it's got nothing on the first 10 weeks of 2021. So if people are criticising Lyon for a crappy 2nd year so far, I'd suggest his 2nd year's going better than his predecessor's at the same point.

 

[littlecreatures]

Myth.

Seems to be a pretty even spread between everyone in the middle.

Now, if you want to claim that one player in particular was failing to stop Newcombe / Worpel, then you might have a point.

View attachment 1986552



Having Marshall dump turnovers all day cuts out their ability to at least halve the ledger. Winning a tap isn't a guarantee to win the ball from the stoppage, but it does allow you to direct it to your own traffic.

Dumping a finger-breaking mongrel punt to a forward 40m out with a defender right next to them as a game plan is moronic. We may as well have kept Gresham.

A) It hopes to generate enough marks just inside 50 that naturally generate shots,

B) It hopes that forward is actually going to lift their arms and contest the drop effectively while dealing with unpredictable flight,

C) It hopes said forward is going to be accurate from distance,

D) It leaves crumbers in no man's land if it's not directly marked by the opposition and allows a slingshot through an open midfield.

It’s not a myth, the quality of our mids, even when they’re winning contested ball or clearances, is lack lustre. Anyone can tell you that, it’s a bottom 2 or 3 midfield. You’d be disillusioned to think otherwise. Placing blame Ro’s way really is just papering over the cracks and avoiding the underlying issues, which is incredibly obvious. He can only do so much with what’s around him.

 

[NoisyMinor]

After reading some of these posts you'd think we were getting belted every week

Nonsense.

People are frustrated to be losing games and generating insipid performances in the games we should be winning (not necessarily comfortably).

The season's gone on long enough now that the typical excuses can't be considered valid.

 

[NoisyMinor]

It’s not a myth, the quality of our mids, even when they’re winning contested ball or clearances, is lack lustre. Anyone can tell you that, it’s a bottom 2 or 3 midfield. You’d be disillusioned to think otherwise. Placing blame Ro’s way really is just papering over the cracks and avoiding the underlying issues, which is incredibly obvious. He can only do so much with what’s around him.

Good to see you didn't read the follow up post before diving head first into the dune again.

 

[MrFoster]

No, if he was a half-decent tap ruckman, he wouldn't have to roost it forward.

When his disposals are 6:1 kicks to handballs and he's turning over more than a third of his possessions, he's not only turning the ball over, but he's consolidating uncontested possession for the opposition.

No wonder our midfield can't work their way into any games. 'Protecting' the midfield is burning the midfield.

'Oh well, guess that try didn't work, now we play zone for another two minute stretch and hope to turn it over before the forwards have dropped back too far to have an impact'

Fortunately for Marshall's player value, there's no public 'Effective Clearance' stat to tell the real story.


View attachment 1986508

Exactly, a real ruckman only handballs and only kick when he has to. It’s not like Marshall is a good kick or a good resting forward, his only go is ruck, and all he can do is turning the ball straight over / disguised as a clearance (dump kick to no one)

 

[sauce_head]

I think they at least know what the target is.

What’s ours? X games won? X debutants?

We’re half pregnant in a rebuild kicking 8/9 goals a week and playing the ugliest brand of footy in the afl at the moment.

What is their target?

 

[sauce_head]

Or they aren’t as good as we’d hoped. We ruined King by not keeping someone to let him phase in. Snags is a very uneven player and Butler is cooked.

Yes the Josh Bruce trade…

 

[sauce_head]

In the end, it's 18 players on the field. The bombers 18 is playing better than the saints. It's a case of more mature bodies and experienced players vs a rebuilding team.


How many saints players benefitted from Gresham taking away some attention!? Right now Gresham’s replaced with young kids.

Very defined high brow comment on Gresham.

 

[Banger9798]

Never actually seen 21 year old teenagers ever…

Come round to my place