Opinion Brasilian and South American Football thread

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RussellEbertHandball

RussellEbertHandball

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I have started this thread so those keen on world football can ask questions about the game in Brasil and South America to our Brasilian Port fans GremioPower and diegodcg
 
GremioPower

Sometimes I am gob smacked as to why there is such a low percentage of Brazilian Football players in our A-League (Equivalent to your 2nd Division Standards) not playing here.

Hypothetically speaking, how many would of these players would put up there hand to play aboard? Would 200K a year contract for 3 years be enough incentive? Adelaide needs a second A-League team, as this would be my first port of call to round up players.
 
Why did Colombian club Millonarios become the glamour club of South America in the 1950's and able to buy all those star players from across South America to play there for a few years before the European clubs came trying to recruit South American players.
 

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theDuckFarmer said:
Well to be fair Romario did play 4 games for Adelaide United.
Click to expand...

Not talking superstars that are old and past there used by date. I am talking the ones that are x10 better than anything here who are looking for a better life playing the sport they love who come from the lower social community.

With the population of Brasil, I am sure that there is a team that could be gathered up in 2 weeks that would embarrass any club here in the A-League.

I reckon I could do it for a lot less than what any other club is doing the A-League.
 
Why has the Chilean national team been the best South American team for the last few years? Luck of timing with the players they have or have they put in specific player development plans in Chile to produce this result?
 
GremioPower said:
Because of this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Dorado_(football)
Click to expand...
Thanks for that. It would be interesting if there were no transfer fees today for a few years and see what would happen to the game around the world. So it was a lot more clubs than just Millonarios and a couple of others.

Getting Di Stefano was obviously the big one. I love how he was able to play for Argentina, Colombia and then Spain when he left Millonarios and went and stared for Real Madrid helping them win the first 5 European cups in the first 5 finals.
 
I put this in the other soccer thread when diegodcg first atarted posting here and asked him about Brasilian football.

There was a great 13 part documentary series called History of Football - The Beautiful Game. It was shown in late 2002 / early 2003 in Oz on both SBS and Fox Sports. Below is are parts 5 Brazil and parts 6 The South American super powers. These appear to be slightly different to the ones I saw and there is no subtitles. Diego's team are the red and black team you see from about 1:10 into the first video.

There was a great line about Brazilian football by an old commentator who broadcast the 1950 world cup and was still alive when they filmed this, that I thought was in part 5 at least the version I saw. He said God is a very even handed man. On one hand he gave Brazil the greatest footballers in the world. On the other hand to balance things out he gave Brazil the worst administrators in the world.











And the Dark side of the game

 
diegodcg I have copied your reply to my question about Brasilian football from the other thread here as a bit of a reference.

diegodcg said:
Thanks for all the videos, I'll watch them when I have the time.

Anything round ball related, please feel free to ask me - I'd love to give back a bit to the forum, as I keep asking multiple questions per day about aussie footy.

As REH has said, I'm a fanatic Flamengo fan. I live just about 10 minutes from the Maracanã stadium, once upon a time the biggest football stadium in the world (now with a much reduced capacity and new inside design thanks to the World Cup). We've got the biggest fan base in the country, with an estimated number of fans around 40 million. There are other massive clubs in the country - Corinthians, São Paulo, Vasco da Gama to name a few - but none is as "national" as Flamengo. 50% of Rio de Janeiro city (2nd biggest city in the country, 10M+ people) supports Flamengo but you'll also be able to find Flamengo fans in every state you go, particularly in those without major local clubs, such as is the case in many states of the North and Northeast regions, as Brazil's biggest football clubs are heavily concentrated in the richer Southeast and South regions.

Similarly to Aussie footy, there were no well established national competitions until 1971 in Brazil. Being the huge country that it is, competition was mostly state based, although some interstate (such as the old Rio-São Paulo championship) and even national (such as the Taça Brasil) competitions existed prior to that point. Recently some of those competitions (like the Taça Brasil and Taça Roberto Gomes Pedrosa) were officially recognised as Brazilian titles (on a par with our current league), but I find that very anachronic. I don't think you need to change history in order to give proper importance to trophies won in times gone by.

With the "unification" of titles, Santos and Palmeiras (both from São Paulo state) are now historical leaders with 8 titles each, but you get bizarre stuff such as a team winning the national title twice in the same year, because Palmeiras once won the Taça Brasil and the Taça Roberto Gomes Pedrosa in the same year. The Taça Brasil was a much smaller competition - in some years, the current champions would jump straight into the semifinals - so to put that on a par with the championships that came after seems a bit silly to me. It's a decision influenced by politics though, just like everything else in Brazilian football.

Moreover, although a Brazilian championship was finally created in 1971, its format kept changing almost every year. Most of the time it involved some sort of playoffs. Only in 2003 have we adopted a league format similar to those that have been in place in Europe since the 19th century - that is, just a regular season, you play every team twice, no playoffs. However, a lot of people - me included - are still in favour of a return to a playoff format, as long as it is not changed every year of course because clubs need stability to plan for the season accordingly.

Flamengo have won the national title 6 times. We're also record winners of the Rio de Janeiro state championship (Campeonato Carioca) with 33 titles. The Carioca used be a major, major title in the past but these days it's becoming increasingly unimportant; the level of the games has been underwhelming to say the least and attendances are quite low. I'm in favour of keeping the state competitions but I believe they should be rationalized - less teams and a more profitable format for all involved. As it currently stands, big clubs like Flamengo have to play small semi-professional sides for 3 months before getting into a playoff which in the end always the same big 4 sides (Flamengo, Vasco, Fluminense, Botafogo) qualify for. The last time a team outside the big 4 won the Carioca was in the 60s if I'm not mistaken.

Well, I'm just rambling about random stuff I don't even know if anyone is interested so I'll stop for now. Later when I'm at home I'll post some videos from inside the stadium which I think some might appreciate.
Click to expand...
 
RussellEbertHandball said:
diegodcg I have copied your reply to my question about Brasilian football from the other thread here as a bit of a reference.
Click to expand...

Diego has a very orthodox view on Brazilian soccer History. My understanding is very different. I will need time to seat and write it in English, but I think the orthodoxy got it all wrong.
 

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RussellEbertHandball said:
I put this in the other soccer thread when diegodcg first atarted posting here and asked him about Brasilian football.

There was a great 13 part documentary series called History of Football - The Beautiful Game. It was shown in late 2002 / early 2003 in Oz on both SBS and Fox Sports. Below is are parts 5 Brazil and parts 6 The South American super powers. These appear to be slightly different to the ones I saw and there is no subtitles. Diego's team are the red and black team you see from about 1:10 into the first video.

There was a great line about Brazilian football by an old commentator who broadcast the 1950 world cup and was still alive when they filmed this, that I thought was in part 5 at least the version I saw. He said God is a very even handed man. On one hand he gave Brazil the greatest footballers in the world. On the other hand to balance things out he gave Brazil the worst administrators in the world.











And the Dark side of the game

Click to expand...


I have the documentary in DVD!
 
GremioPower said:
I have the documentary in DVD!
Click to expand...
Does your copy have the old Brasilian commentator who said God is very even handed. On one hand he gave us the world's greatest player and on the other hand he gave us the world's worst administrators.
 
RussellEbertHandball said:
Does your copy have the old Brasilian commentator who said God is very even handed. On one hand he gave us the world's greatest player and on the other hand he gave us the world's worst administrators.
Click to expand...

I will need to rewatch it, but God also gave us the worst journalists! :-D
 
PAFC04 said:
GremioPower

Sometimes I am gob smacked as to why there is such a low percentage of Brazilian Football players in our A-League (Equivalent to your 2nd Division Standards) not playing here.

Hypothetically speaking, how many would of these players would put up there hand to play aboard? Would 200K a year contract for 3 years be enough incentive? Adelaide needs a second A-League team, as this would be my first port of call to round up players.
Click to expand...

MLS also pays that, and there aren't much Brazilians playing there. Usually, Brazilian agents send players to Eastern Europe, where rich moguls like to overpay their rosters. Still, Brazilians bring Brazilians. I don't follow A-League much. Romario played there, right? A AU$200k/year salary is good for Brazil's Second Division players. But, then, I don't know how well they would play in Australia.
 
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GremioPower said:
Diego has a very orthodox view on Brazilian soccer History. My understanding is very different. I will need time to seat and write it in English, but I think the orthodoxy got it all wrong.
Click to expand...
Curious as to what is orthodox about my views, and where you may differ? Apart from the fact I dislike the so-called "unification" of titles, I don't know what I might have said that is even slightly controversial haha
 
RussellEbertHandball said:
Flamengo 0 - 1 Grêmio
Click to expand...

What a terrible game to watch for a Flamengo fan. Lots of chances created, none of them finished properly, and some pretty poor defending for their goal, which was one of only a few decent attacks.

I'm not a big fan of Flamengo's current coach. He's consistent to a fault - no imagination whatsoever, the team has been set up in exactly the same way for every single match for the past 14 months. The main difference is that a year ago he had the likes of Gabriel or an ageing Emerson to manage, whilst now he has Diego (previously a Juventus, Werder Bremen, Wolfsburg player) and Everton Ribeiro (not long ago twice elected best player in Brazil). I'd have expected a bigger jump in quality this year but it looks like it'll be more of the same. We're likely to qualify for Libertadores again, which years ago would've had me ecstatic, but with such a qualified and expensive squad, I was hoping we could actually challenge for the league title.

Still a long way to go but god knows I'm not the most optimistic of Flamengo fans.
 
RussellEbertHandball said:
Flamengo 0 - 1 Grêmio
Click to expand...

"Ah! Que bom seria!
Jogar contra o Flamengo todo dia!"



Grêmio and Flamengo are probably the Alpha and the Omega among Brazil's top clubs. One is blue-collar hard working, culturally borderliner; the other, no-collar, easygoing, pure Brazilian. The clubs seem unable to grasp each other, sometimes. It is always an interesting match-up.
 
diegodcg said:
Curious as to what is orthodox about my views, and where you may differ? Apart from the fact I dislike the so-called "unification" of titles, I don't know what I might have said that is even slightly controversial haha
Click to expand...

Wait and see! The unification was a farce, I concur, but my view is the exactly opposite of yours! :-D
 
diegodcg said:
Curious as to what is orthodox about my views, and where you may differ? Apart from the fact I dislike the so-called "unification" of titles, I don't know what I might have said that is even slightly controversial haha
Click to expand...
RussellEbertHandball said:
diegodcg I have copied your reply to my question about Brasilian football from the other thread here as a bit of a reference.
Click to expand...

Brazil's current national league, although NOBODY seems willing to acknowledge it, was born in 1950 under the name of "Torneio Rio-São Paulo", a tournament between the top teams from São Paulo state and the city of Rio de Janeiro.

The first recognized national champion was crowned in 1959, though, when the first "Taça Brasil" was held — a knockout competion between all the state champions.

The most accurate, imho, list of Brazilian national champions is found here:

http://campeoesbrasileiros.blogspot.com.br/2009/08/os-campeoes-do-brasil-no-futebol.html?m=1

[to be continued]
 
Before 1959, the Brazilian Championship was NOT a club competition, but something like a "State of Origin" (although it was a "State of Play", even foreigners were allowed in state teams): teams representing the states would play against each other in a knockout tournament. This tournament was used as the model for the "Taça Brazil" in 1959.

Taça Brazil was created to determine the Brazilian representative in 1960 Copa Libertadores, the first edition of the South American "Champions League". Bahia beat Santos in a surpring result. P.S.: Taça Brazil's success ended up "killing" the competition between state teams.

The Taça was held between 1959 and 1968, when it was discontinued — it had lost prestige when the "Torneio Rio-São Paulo", then called "Torneio Roberto Gomes Pedrosa", was expanded to include teams from other states in 1967. The tournament returned under a new name (Copa do Brasil), 20 years later, in 1989. It is being held every season since.
 
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