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Roast Big Game Underperformers
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TeeKray
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You know who always performed in the big games?
simba_
sucking a lemon
david koch tops the list
Big call when we have a player on the list who kicked 3.6 in a knockout final in his prime and has returned a whopping 5 goals in 5 finals since.
Dixon is up there too but not quite in my top 3 concerns for shitting the bed.
I actually think Allir, Marshall and Dixon are our barometers, when they play well we play well but all 3 have been poor in finals.
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Just getting back to the original question, I think I would base my answer on how many times.
You have to circle Hinkley, Boak, Dixon and Wines as guys who can get us there, that is, into finals but not take us to the Promised Land and win the Grand Final, let along get us there. They've all had plenty of chances in key games and in key positions. A few of those have had strong chances on their boot as well.
While I understand a mini-pile on our current midfield of Rozee and Butters, they were 23 last year heading into finals for the first time. It is not an excuse but just the facts. I'm sure there are other posters who can confirm this but back in the SANFL, it would have been weird for Rozee and Butters to be the leaders of the midfield going into a final and they would have had other veterans like a Bucky or a Ebert to help out and right the ship if things are going badly. I'm just saying they have 6 more years of improve. For mine, the jury is out but the trend is not the best.
There is a big difference in players and roles from the PF loss to the Bulldogs and the PF loss to the Giants last year. So lets see what the new guys can do. Obviously the real issue is Kenny Average.
I am sure most of us will be watching with baited breath all of our games against the Top 4 teams this year to see who is putting in and who is wilting. A fair few of us have our spidey sense tingling already.
You have to circle Hinkley, Boak, Dixon and Wines as guys who can get us there, that is, into finals but not take us to the Promised Land and win the Grand Final, let along get us there. They've all had plenty of chances in key games and in key positions. A few of those have had strong chances on their boot as well.
While I understand a mini-pile on our current midfield of Rozee and Butters, they were 23 last year heading into finals for the first time. It is not an excuse but just the facts. I'm sure there are other posters who can confirm this but back in the SANFL, it would have been weird for Rozee and Butters to be the leaders of the midfield going into a final and they would have had other veterans like a Bucky or a Ebert to help out and right the ship if things are going badly. I'm just saying they have 6 more years of improve. For mine, the jury is out but the trend is not the best.
There is a big difference in players and roles from the PF loss to the Bulldogs and the PF loss to the Giants last year. So lets see what the new guys can do. Obviously the real issue is Kenny Average.
I am sure most of us will be watching with baited breath all of our games against the Top 4 teams this year to see who is putting in and who is wilting. A fair few of us have our spidey sense tingling already.
In that knockout final had 23 poss, 16 contested, 7 marks, 4 contested, 4 tackles and 11 SI for a key forward. Yes he didn't kick straight, but its equally valid to say he was the only reason we were in the game esp in the first quarter so is that underperforming???
Of note:
- In the 2020 prelim he did as well as any key forward in a shortened game in torrid conditions. No KF kicked more than 1 goal and he was one of them.
- In the 2021 prelim kicked 2 of our 6 goals. It would have been bloody hard to perform to expectation in a game where we got trounced by 12-odd goals.
- He was virtually playing on crutches in that last final you speak of in another game where you expect a forward to perform when our midfield got murdered.
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It is so easy to take shots at Ollie and Boak without any stats to back it up. For every final where you claim that they under performed, I bet I could counter with a final where they were among the best on ground.
Its also ridiculous to target these players consistently without looking at each game in context to remind ourselves who else under performed in those games and remembering their are 22/23 players representing us.
One thing I'm convinced of is this side is already cooked get used of another year bastar#ised by a coach who has no clue.
The players have been brainwashed into a zombie like silence with no hint of of revolt or resistance at all. PA the laughing stock of the AFL!
The players have been brainwashed into a zombie like silence with no hint of of revolt or resistance at all. PA the laughing stock of the AFL!
During their run as leaders and our best players they didn't bring home the bacon.
They really don't have games where they took the game by the scruff of the neck and won us games.
Those three guys have never won prelims.
I just don't have games or plays seared into my mind where they won us a big game.
If you go back to 2004, you can remember heaps of different plays when guys stepped up and won us games.
That's why in the Boak thread, I called him a very good player, not a great player. Sure, I was hounded but I would say the same for Dixon. If both of them kick the right goal late in a game or do something that gets us over the line then I would reneg but I haven't seen it. I just don't see finals heroics with these guys over the journey.
Look at the 2021 PF against the Bulldogs. Lycett, Boak, Wines and Drew were disappointing.
And if you like stats, Wines will have some game where he racks up huge possy numbers but without impact. I prefer the eye test.
That's why I've mentioned them in accordance with the thread first and that the current crop have just started that journey of 'being the man or men' for our team so I think they deserve a bit more time to be judged.
You are making my point for me. Football is a team game. This idea that one player can lift and win you the game singlehandedly almost never happens without others playing their role. Additionally peoples memory is notoriously selective when it comes to their preconceptions and who they are focusing on.
Lets look at Boak 2014 prelim vs Hawks.
The only prelim Travis played in his 20's. What about that game screams 'disappointing'. What didn't he do to 'drag his team over the line'? Was it his fault we had one ruck all year that we had dragged into the ground come finals? Tell me how was it Boak's fault that Schultz kicked 1 goal 2 behinds from 5 shots at goal???
Or Wines who you were so disappointed by in the 2021 Prelim.
What disappointed you? What in your view could he have done to drag the team over the line? Should he have rucked instead of Lycett? Told Hinkley not to start Drew on the bench? Was it his fault the team were lulled into a relaxed state of overconfidence in the lead up to the game??? There were 22 players on the ground that night. If Wines game is what disappointed you, watch the game again and look harder. I assure you there is a lot more to be disappointed in
Don't give me the eye test BS. A player with those all round statistics in a side that got beaten by 12 goals has not disappointed or underperformed.
There are other examples, already posted, for both players in finals, that seem so easily forgotten or simply ignored because those players, out of 22, did not somehow 'get us over the line' in a particular game.
Powerage, you're a standard deviation and a smattering of specious logic away from Janus.
I consider statistics to be of secondary or tertiary concern to the primary evident of the eye test where you watch a player impact play, the contest or the scoreboard.
Wines, Boak and Dixon are just very good players who never got us to a Grand Final and they had a long run of it.
Throw whatever blind stats you want. Posters on here who watched the games will remember massive run ons against our midfield, Boak and Dixon missing critical goals, things like that.
They just don't have the cash in the bank and their time is nigh.
They don't have a Wanganeen kicking a goal from boundary in the last quarter against the Saint.
They don't have a Jr Burger desperate lunge smother against the Saints sealing the win.
They don't have Choppy running riot in the Grand Final.
They don't have Kane shutting down last year's Norm Smith Medalist.
They don't have Tredders kicking that beautiful goal from the boundary in the Granny.
They don't have Roger James holding our midfield with duct tape for four quarters.
They don't have Wakes taking a few in the chin from the dying Lynch.
They don't have Wilbur on life support putting in the big ones.
Powerage, enjoy your empty stats and lack of a win of a Prelim or Granny and have a loser beer with Kenny Average while you're at it.
I consider statistics to be of secondary or tertiary concern to the primary evident of the eye test where you watch a player impact play, the contest or the scoreboard.
Wines, Boak and Dixon are just very good players who never got us to a Grand Final and they had a long run of it.
Throw whatever blind stats you want. Posters on here who watched the games will remember massive run ons against our midfield, Boak and Dixon missing critical goals, things like that.
They just don't have the cash in the bank and their time is nigh.
They don't have a Wanganeen kicking a goal from boundary in the last quarter against the Saint.
They don't have a Jr Burger desperate lunge smother against the Saints sealing the win.
They don't have Choppy running riot in the Grand Final.
They don't have Kane shutting down last year's Norm Smith Medalist.
They don't have Tredders kicking that beautiful goal from the boundary in the Granny.
They don't have Roger James holding our midfield with duct tape for four quarters.
They don't have Wakes taking a few in the chin from the dying Lynch.
They don't have Wilbur on life support putting in the big ones.
Powerage, enjoy your empty stats and lack of a win of a Prelim or Granny and have a loser beer with Kenny Average while you're at it.
You've just proved my point again. Teams win premierships. Not just solo efforts.
I never associated myself as a Hinkley fan, in fact have been highly critical of him and can't wait for him to be gone. So heck you for associating me with him.
Yes, stats are empty. That's why teams and the media pay so much for them. If it hadn't been for Shaun Burgoyne you would be putting all the players you have just deified into the Boak and Wines basket telling me that to your 'eye test' all those players were the reason why we failed to get to a 'granny'. In fact, if the St Kilda fans hadn't invaded the ground when Gherig kicked a ton they may well have rolled right over the top of us.
I am one of the posters who watched 'those games'. Hang on, which games are you talking about? Dixon didn't play in the 2014 prelim for a start and there was no massive run on against our midfield. Was Wines meant to stop the Bulldog 12 goal onslaught by himself to the satisfaction of your eye test? Do you know what you are talking about or are you just spewing bile in my general direction? LOL. You are not worth the effort
Windy Cindy
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Again go back and watch the first quarter against the bulldogs, stop looking at stats.. he didn’t touch it when it mattered and the game was done at 1/4 time.. anything after that was garbage stats
So you don't think a team could claw back 6 goals in 3 quarters and everything after quarter time was junk time? That's a loser mentality if I've ever heard it. And you are jumping on Wines back???
He had 4 poss in the first quarter which is not up to scratch by his standards. But he kicked a goal and had 194 metres gained which was far and away the most for any player that quarter for 100% DE. So to say he wasn't involved at all when it mattered is rubbish.
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He turns 26 in October. Not sure you can call him young fella still
This thread is about players who have underperformed in big games, not the team itself.
There is no glory with Wines, Boak and Dixon for finals.
Its just the sad facts.
None of them have stood up when it counted and over the journey in big games.
It is your best players who get the most criticism for failure.
Last year in finals Rozee and Butters copped it and rightfully so. They underperformed.
It's not difficult.
Your posting in this thread just sounds like conceptual loser talk to me.
So I guess the questions is do you think Boak, Dixon and Wines have underperformed, overperformed or performed adequately?
I wonder what you think of Dustin Martin.
That's right. You have to analyse the reasons why and when and who wins the game or puts the game into that winning position.
As you've said, the game was over at quarter time which is hideous. The game after that was gone. It is only the first quarter stats that matter in that game.
In the Collingwood game last week, the last quarter stats don't matter. The game was over. We were killed in the second and third quarter. You have to look into that half of footy to see where we went wrong.
Its one of the many reasons why a purely stats based approach is fraught with danger.
Cannot disagree with your post one bit.
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It has been mentioned many times during kern's tenure that his multiple get out clauses of `finals are scary,' someone has to lose,' etc, etc, etc, plus his laughing and joking with oppo coaches after losing what should have been unlosable games are as non Port Adelaide as it could possibly get, just gives the players a continual get out of jail card, and then at seasons end one of the lesser lights becomes the sacrificial lamb, eg Bonner and Duursma.
It could probably be argued that even though he definitely wasn't a lesser light Chad Wingard may have been the first of those lambs!
On the opposite side of the coin the club's genuinely successful coaches in Fos Williams and John Cahill could make average players believe they were better than they were, particularly in finals, eg there were a number of role player types who played in multiple senior and magoo's flags in the 6 in a row era, and I can remember having a chat with Doug Thomas after one of the Maggie's grand final wins in the 1990's when Adrian Settre came off the bench to kick some crucial goals when the result of that game was still very much on the line, and he was incredulous that a player he saw as just reserve's level could do that, but he eventually admitted that coaching had to have a fair bit to do with it.
Amongst a number of the oft maligned players for going missing in big games Connor Rozee is probably as guilty as any other for below par performances, and I believe he and other members of his family have commented about criticism he has received for it.
I don't know if it was mentioned in the game thread last night but I thought the cupping of the ear after scoring Port's first goal last night may have either been an up yours to those critics, or even a supporter or group of supporters who had given him a spray.
It could probably be argued that even though he definitely wasn't a lesser light Chad Wingard may have been the first of those lambs!
On the opposite side of the coin the club's genuinely successful coaches in Fos Williams and John Cahill could make average players believe they were better than they were, particularly in finals, eg there were a number of role player types who played in multiple senior and magoo's flags in the 6 in a row era, and I can remember having a chat with Doug Thomas after one of the Maggie's grand final wins in the 1990's when Adrian Settre came off the bench to kick some crucial goals when the result of that game was still very much on the line, and he was incredulous that a player he saw as just reserve's level could do that, but he eventually admitted that coaching had to have a fair bit to do with it.
Amongst a number of the oft maligned players for going missing in big games Connor Rozee is probably as guilty as any other for below par performances, and I believe he and other members of his family have commented about criticism he has received for it.
I don't know if it was mentioned in the game thread last night but I thought the cupping of the ear after scoring Port's first goal last night may have either been an up yours to those critics, or even a supporter or group of supporters who had given him a spray.
