Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[footyfan1978]

Some of these vatniks simply do not have the most aware of minds.

My favourite was the one that called himself awakened mind or something similar. The irony tickled my funny bone.

 

[Zidane98]

Do you need to be told what to think? Got a ring in your nose you instilled with certain rights and permissions as to who is allowed to tie a string to it?
Is "Got link?" your mantra?

Fine. Here's one, quick search, about 5 seconds... about as much time as it took for you to write that reply, I imagine.
Human rights watch.

New Language Requirement Raises Concerns in Ukraine

A new legal provision on the use of the Ukrainian language, part of a broader state language law, raises concerns about protection for minority languages.

www.hrw.org

If you do some pretty basic research you will know that this has already been debunked:

No, the Russian language was not banned from Ukraine

Russia Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov recently doubled down on an inaccurate statement he’s made before: that Ukraine ba

www.politifact.com

Nowhere is Russian language banned, that's just nonsense promoted by the Kremlin. Furthermore, the law you quoted specifically states government employees may use languages other than Ukranian if it suits both parties.


Is there anymore Russian disinformation you would like to promote?

 

[Zidane98]

Cannot remember him sorry. Must have been in earlier thread.
Anyway, so Freo not far behind Richmond on vatnik leaderboard?

Richmond are guaranteed top 4. Finals could be interesting though.



I really hope GWS & Gold Coast aren't tanking for vatnik draft picks next season. Another season would be most unpleasant.

 

[Baldur]

Initiated... now there's a complicated discussion point. Well, its not really up for discussion, no one really wants to know why anything happens.

If you're using the premise that Russia just woke up one day and decided to invade Ukraine because "imperialism", or because Putin's a maniac, then yes. "Russia is bad, mmm'k?"

I'm not.
Wars start for a lot of different reasons, and these days the information about what is happening behind the scenes more easily available. Although not to most, it seems.

It is that simple. All attempts to make it more complex involve smart arses big noting themselves about how they know so more than the sheep and justifications for Russian's invasion. Attempts to look behind the scenes mean going down silly conspiracy rabbit holes.

Russia has a very long history of imperialism, and Putin has gone feral. My first post on this thread involved how Putin as a good checka had other ways to get what he wanted than sending in the tanks. Oh, how wrong I was.

 

[jatz14]

Initiated... now there's a complicated discussion point. Well, its not really up for discussion, no one really wants to know why anything happens.

If you're using the premise that Russia just woke up one day and decided to invade Ukraine because "imperialism", or because Putin's a maniac, then yes. "Russia is bad, mmm'k?"

I'm not.
Wars start for a lot of different reasons, and these days the information about what is happening behind the scenes more easily available. Although not to most, it seems.


Again, I noted that law in response to some other poster who said something about Ukrainian speaking... oh never mind. It was just mildly amusing to me at the time.
Point is, I made absolutely no further comment about it. Did I say anything about language restrictions, or did other posters assume I did and run with it?
Read back and see if you can see what actually happened there.

Some bloke started an argument about the date (which I got wrong, and noted I wasn't sure of the year before anyone even replied to it but didn't bother going into any detail regarding the recent history of that law) and then the accusations and name calling started. From there, the assumption that I'm a Vatnik or whatever name they're using has stuck.
It's pretty much par for the course around here. I'm accustomed to it. It does make for a fascinating study though. Sometimes half the fun is trying to guess what I'm going to be accused of saying before I've said anything.


That much is obvious.
I think it's indicative that you make this comment as a point of pride.


Just FYI, China is doing the same thing on the Indian border.
It's not a new thing.

International payments are a tricky business. It's not a simple matter of one country paying another. That's about as far as I'll go into that here.

Russia didn't wake up one day and imperialism.

Imperialism has been an enduring theme for years. Ethno nationalist advisors to Putin have been advocating a Slavic empire for years, to the point of writing whole books about it, and we are talking people on the inside of the power structures, not random extremists.

The most extreme examples go so far as calling on Russia to conquer and control everything up to and including Germany, and then using this empire as a base on which to take on the US head to head.

So, no, Putin didn't wake up one morning , go mad, and decide to invade Ukraine.

He has been waking up every morning for years, dreaming of the empire he was going to build, an empire which could be thwarted by the spread of NATO, hence the need to invade Ukraine now.

How Western scholars overlooked Russian imperialism

For far too long, Western academia has ignored the legacies of the Russian Empire and colonisation.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[Visions]

How could the invasion be avoided? Don't invade.



On SM-X200 using BigFooty.com mobile app

Bingo. It is a simple thing yet vatniks find this hard to fathom.

 

[Chief]

That sounded intriguing so you got me doing a search. Seems like it's been fairly common knowledge for almost a decade. Here's a report from 2014.

Lol like you just Googled that

 

[Chief]

This is the thread for all the posts about the history and politics.

 

[Episode IV]

Bingo. It is a simple thing yet vatniks find this hard to fathom.

It would be hard to fathom, if you ignored the context and assumed it was Russia I was talking about.

But never mind, you seem to be having so much fun high fiving yourselves I wouldn't dream of interfering. It must be nice to live in such a simple world as yours.
I'm envious, in a way.

 

[Zidane98]

It would be hard to fathom, if you ignored the context and assumed it was Russia I was talking about.

But never mind, you seem to be having so much fun high fiving yourselves I wouldn't dream of interfering. It must be nice to live in such a simple world as yours.
I'm envious, in a way.

There's no high fiving over any of this. As many have said Russia simply didn't become imperialistic overnight. Your country in the 90s was not imperialistic as it was rebuilding itself after moving away from the soviet style of government. TIt must be noted that the US urged Ukraine to hand over its TU160 Blackjack bombers and its 3000 strong nuclear arsenal in exchange for Russia recognising Ukraine's sovereignty / agreeing to not attack / invade Ukrainer in 1994.


The turning point came in the 00s after Russia had been helped by the US and western countries to rebuild itself. Putin started to harbor ambitions of recreating the great Russian empire. Poisoned non Russian aligned Ukranian representatives in elections. This, along with Putin's unhappiness at the fall of the USSR is where the seeds of what is happenning today were sewn. Your leader simply cannot accept a Ukraine that wants to have friendly relations with western neighbors. A shame, because Ukraine is perfectly located to be a trading partner with the west and Russia. Instead he chooses force. And he does this because Russia has gotten away with it in Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine initially until Putin decided to attempt a full blown invasion.

He is destroying Russia and I feel sorry that you are subject to such a regime.

 

[wannabejack]

Who does Crimea really belong to?

Russia's war against Ukraine began in Crimea. In February 2014, as the pro-Russian regime in Kyiv was killing protesters on the barricades of the EuroMaidan Revolution, thousands of Russian troops without insignia began occupying strategic locations and military bases in the Crimean Peninsula...

kyivindependent.com

 

[jatz14]

I didn't say anything about Zelensky, nor did I expound upon my views of who passed it or why.
Most Ukrainians in the East are of Russian descent. The Holodomor.
East and West Ukraine are very different. It is a key to understanding all of this.

Seems like some of those Russians are keen to go home. Setting up camp in Belgorod. Vlad will be pleased.

 

[wannabejack]

Ukraine’s nuclear disarmament

When the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic adopted the Declaration of Sovereignty in July 1990 to gain greater rights and freedoms within the Soviet Union, ridding the country of nuclear weapons was one of its top priorities. Ukraine had just suffered enormously from the 1986 Chornobyl...

kyivindependent.com

 

[Zidane98]

Ukraine’s nuclear disarmament

When the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic adopted the Declaration of Sovereignty in July 1990 to gain greater rights and freedoms within the Soviet Union, ridding the country of nuclear weapons was one of its top priorities. Ukraine had just suffered enormously from the 1986 Chornobyl...

kyivindependent.com

If this did not happen Russia would not have been able to invade Ukraine. Putin & co can whine all they like but the facts are that the US/UK actually helped Russia get its hands on Ukraine's nuclear arsenal and high tech military equipment like its TU-160 blackjack bombers (now being used to attack Ukraine!!!).


Without this agreement there never would have been a Russian invasion. So the Russians can have absolutely zero complaints about the US's arming of Ukraine considering it is an obligation of the US to defend Ukraine against attack under the Budapest agreement.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Richmond are guaranteed top 4. Finals could be interesting though.



I really hope GWS & Gold Coast aren't tanking for vatnik draft picks next season. Another season would be most unpleasant.

I wouldn't put it past the both of them

 

[wannabejack]

This article describes the long history of attempted Russification of the Ukrainian people. This current war with Russia is just another part of the long history of Ukrainian's struggle to be Ukrainian.

âHopeless Timesâ: How Empire Prevented Us from Being Ukrainians

One of the obsessive topics of Kremlin propaganda is the “oppression” of Russians and the Russian language in Ukraine. As in other cases, ruscism simply reflects one’s own “sins.” â Ukrinform.

www.ukrinform.net

 

[Millky95]

Yep. Ukraine has no right to pursue its own future. Should submit to become a former Soviet puppet state of Russia again. Any attempts to the contrary deserve immediate military action in response by Russia.

And it's the USA's fault for being so gosh darn tempting

 

[Cap]

Most of it consisted of a "what, who, me?" argument.

No it wasn't. That is just your way of trying to avoid answering questions

Particularly noting that the seemingly strong position of "not hiding behind the words of others" was made from the viewpoint of a cohort almost wholly reliant upon twitter propaganda posting.

I post news updates from Twitter/telegram and threads, they are hiding my view behind the words of others.

There was one interesting question nestled in there. I'm thinking about that one, if it makes you happy to hear it.

Please don't rush, hopefully you can provide an answer that isn't blame the US

 

[Episode IV]

Ah yes, the secret string pulling theory favoured by people desperate to be different and edgy.

I doubt you'd find many clear thinkers on either side of the argument who'd dismiss intervention in one form or another as a conspiracy theory or, as you've said, merely an attempt to appear edgy.

The idea that Ukraine should not have the agency to determine their own status again rears its ugly head.

Determining their own status, yes. The thought occurs that someone, somewhere, has to define or identify who it is that has the right to determine their own status to begin with, and that military intervention (among other forms of intervention) is far from off the table in attempts to reinforce that right on the behalf of one party or another, but you know... I can't recall anyone saying they don't have that right. Perhaps you'll show me where I did, at least?

I would suggest Russia's conduct with respect to Ukraine only solidifies their own efforts to distance themselves from Russia. The memories of the holodomor conveniently pushed aside by the vatniks trying to convince themselves that Putin is a rational state actor more than a brutal dictator.

Perhaps you might want to consider that some might see him as both, to varying degrees on the spectrum.
I realise you have a black and white outlook of morality, but the entire issue is a complicated one and can't be categorised quite as simply as that.

People say things I agree with, and they say things I don't. I'm not in the habit of categorizing them according to any one thing they've said, and wander around putting black hats on some and white hats on others.
I prefer to look at things more holistically. It's an issue I have with political discourse in Australia, as well, and with representative democracy in general, which is currently being enforced - by force or otherwise - in many parts of the world.

As an example, I give you Marianne Williamson. US democratic candidate, has a few opinions I agree with, and a few I don't. This one, I enjoyed immensely.
After you've watched it, try to think about how closely it aligns with what Putin has been saying for at least a decade now, and perhaps longer.

 

[Millky95]

I realise you have a black and white outlook of morality, but the entire issue is a complicated one and can't be categorised quite as simply as that.

It gets pretty black and white when someone invades another country. How Australia can have the USA as our biggest defensive ally but China as our biggest trading partner is a complicated issue. Having one of them invade us makes it pretty ******* clear cut

 

[Nothing]

If Ukraine didn't dress like a **** she wouldn't have been groped. She was asking for it.

 

[Episode IV]

No it wasn't. That is just your way of trying to avoid answering questions

I post news updates from Twitter/telegram and threads, they are hiding my view behind the words of others.

Please don't rush, hopefully you can provide an answer that isn't blame the US

Alright, I will.
I don't think you understand the difference between blaming the USA, and acknowledging that they had a very clear part to play in the preamble to the war, which is now being simply dismissed by one means or another by people who have a very limited understanding of the modern world and insist upon dividing opinion between those with them, and those against them.

When you say things like "hopefully you can provide an answer that isn't blaming the US" you are not inviting discussion - you are threatening an adverse result for anyone who doesn't agree with your assessment. What form that adverse result takes, is readily apparent to me.
I think you should be more appreciative that I've paid you as much attention as I have. Is that clear enough for you?

 

[faible]

they had a very clear part to play in the preamble to the war

Go on.

 

[Cap]

Alright, I will.
I don't think you understand the difference between blaming the USA, and acknowledging that they had a very clear part to play in the preamble to the war,

So do tell, what was role in making Putin invade Ukraine

which is now being simply dismissed by one means or another by people who have a very limited understanding of the modern world and insist upon dividing opinion between those with them, and those against them.

As above, tell me what did the US do to force Putin to invade Ukraine.

When you say things like "hopefully you can provide an answer that isn't blaming the US" you are not inviting discussion - you are threatening an adverse result for anyone who doesn't agree with your assessment. What form that adverse result takes, is readily apparent to me.

No it's merely having hope, I can't see a threat there at all.

Are you scared my response might be a disagree emoji?

But apologies for making you feel threatened. I did not mean it in that way.

I think you should be more appreciative that I've paid you as much attention as I have. Is that clear enough for you?

Sorry, I need to be thankful for your engagement? I mean sure thank you for taking the time to explain your position, both now and in the future.

Edit - hopefully not to late, can you also just add a bit, if possible, if Russia was forced into this invasion, why is it choosing to kill children/rape women, destroy sites of cultural importance, torture chambers and the like? Surely if this was a forced invasion it should have always been a military focused invasion.

 

[bourbons]

As a starting point, an immediate end to hostilities, Russia withdraws to pre-war borders (as per Feb 2022), NATO is immediately dissolved as an organisation, and all foreign bases in Europe are immediately handed over to the host nations and an international law drawn up to prevent foreign militaries from being based anywhere other than in their own nation's territory. All parties involved in the war (including Russia) pay for the mess (in the form of donations, financial or otherwise, and not investment - matching their contribution to the war in terms of ordinance and support measures if not actively involved) and the reconstruction of Ukraine. All trade restrictions (including sanctions) immediately removed.
The immediate reformation of the UN in such a manner as it is truly an international organisation, and held accountable when it doesn't do the job it was formed to do.

The idea that Russia is justified regarding their fear of countries near them joining NATO is absurd. If Russia came out and said they invaded coz they were concerned about the Incredible Hulk emerging from a Ukraine biolab to lay waste to the motherland it would have roughly the same credence.

NATO isn't conducting an invasion of Russian soil. Ever. Literally the only reason Russia fear NATO is that it makes it impossible for them to annex whatever country joins forever more (which is why it was conceived in the first place, who'da thunk eh?).