Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Chief]

I just had a thought that it might be good to have a thread covering the history and opinions about the lead up to this war.

Nothing from me yet, I don't have any expertise in the area. Just what I've watched and read online. Never read a book on the subject.

Thoughts? What do you know or think about the history and political machinations?

 

[Osho]

These opinions seem unwelcome on the other thread, where origins of war discussion is equated to Putin love.

Chris Hedges always likes to ruffle feathers.

The Ukraine catastrophe and how we got here: Chronicle of a war foretold

I was there for the end of the Cold War — and we all understood how the new peace could collapse. We didn't stop it

www.salon.com

 

[Chief]

These opinions seem unwelcome on the other thread

So... new thread.

 

[Malifice]

'NATO pushed Russia to invade Ukraine', kind of misses the point that NATO only exists to counter Russian aggression in Europe.

In a different world, post perestroika Russia is a member of the EU, its borders are open, the Europeans have access to its resources, and the Russian economy is booming, and NATO no longer exists.

Putin choose to go the other way.

 

[Chief]

But the Chomsky viewpoint is that NATO exists to control oil supplies.

Putin wants to secure oil and gas.

So this one is really a diplomatic kerfuffle that Putin decided he wouldn't win, so he sent in the tanks.

 

[Malifice]

But the Chomsky viewpoint is that NATO exists to control oil supplies.

Putin wants to secure oil and gas.

Which conveniently ignores the fact the EU have been getting Oil and Gas from the Russians for decades, as their number 1 suppliers of each:

 

[Chief]

No it doesn't. He can switch it off, and as I recall he has.

 

[Malifice]

No it doesn't. He can switch it off, and as I recall he has.

I agree he can switch it off (although he pisses off his Oligarchs when he does so), and Im not supporting Putin. Im simply saying Putin/ Russia has been supplying Oil and Gas to the EU, more than any other nation, NATO or no NATO.

This has been brewing for a while. I've said on here before the War in Iraq was for the Americans to seize the only other alternative energy supplies into the EU (whom the war was targeted at).

The Europeans basically have two options for energy. The middle east (so US controlled) or Russia.

Hitler learnt the hard way that [no oil] = [lost war], so control of EU energy supplies has a massive strategic impact (in addition to economic impact, due to the size of the EU's economy).

 

[yebiga]

Best thing about the USA is that it might consistently gaslight not only its own citizens but the entire world - however, if you are prepared to do a little digging, you will find where they openly admit what they are up to.

It's like the MSM is feeding you McDonalds - but if you really want it they've still got some fine dining venues.

 

[Carringbush2010]

'NATO pushed Russia to invade Ukraine', kind of misses the point that NATO only exists to counter Russian aggression in Europe.

In a different world, post perestroika Russia is a member of the EU, its borders are open, the Europeans have access to its resources, and the Russian economy is booming, and NATO no longer exists.

Putin choose to go the other way.

Probably because he's an ideological fkwit.

He's the type that doesn't know the word compromise exists.

And will eventually be his downfall, unfortunately taking 100s of millions of people and two nations down with him.

 

[Schneebly11]

There's a bit of a myth that the US has used NATO to aggressively expand towards Russia's borders.

In reality it's the nations of Eastern Europe that have sought to align themselves with the West and away from Russia. The Baltics, the Balkans, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Georgia. The only two Putin has are his puppets in Belarus, and Serbia. But Serbia are trying to get more towards the EU, it's just their populace is still a little pissed off from the NATO bombings in the 90s.

But on the whole Eastern Europe wants to be more Western, less Russian. Ukraine is just the latest country to follow on that path.

 

[Malifice]

Best thing about the USA is that it might consistently gaslight not only its own citizens but the entire world - however, if you are prepared to do a little digging, you will find where they openly admit what they are up to.

It's like the MSM is feeding you McDonalds - but if you really want it they've still got some fine dining venues.

Come on Yebiga.

We know Putin is only heroically intervening in Ukraine to take down the Bio-labs run by the Satanic Padeo enablers (the 'International financiers, Hollywood and media elites, banking cabals' etc) where 'they' have been cloning children for sexual cannibalism use by the 'elites' (leftists) as part of 'their' efforts to impose Socialism on us via Agenda 21.



This is what the cookers, anti-vaxxers and conspiracy nutters actually think (thanks to the Kremlin troll farms of course).

 

[yebiga]

Come on Yebiga.

We know Putin is only heroically intervening in Ukraine to take down the Bio-labs run by the Satanic Padeo enablers (the 'International financiers, Hollywood and media elites, banking cabals' etc) where 'they' have been cloning children for sexual cannibalism use by the 'elites' (leftists) as part of 'their' efforts to impose Socialism on us via Agenda 21.



This is what the cookers, anti-vaxxers and conspiracy nutters actually think (thanks to the Kremlin troll farms of course).

This might help

Helplines - Confidential Free Counseling Services

Listing of Helplines that provide confidential, free counselling services and anonymous support for mental health, alcohol and drug related issues. Call now!

www.mhc.wa.gov.au

 

[Malifice]

This might help

Helplines - Confidential Free Counseling Services

Listing of Helplines that provide confidential, free counselling services and anonymous support for mental health, alcohol and drug related issues. Call now!

www.mhc.wa.gov.au

Irony not lost on you with this post.

 

[Saint]

The consistent thing which Putin has been against is Democracy. He hates it. I don't know enough about Putin to know why.

But his history as leader of Russia can basically be described as either anti-democracy or pro-authoritarian/corruption.

NATO isn't about oil (clearly the facts debunk this idea). Democratic countries are falling over themselves to join NATO (and the EU) because there are huge benefits.

Russia can't or won't join NATO/EU because they'll never meet the democratic requirements.

It's an ideological clash. Putin doesn't want democracies at his door-step because he can't control them and they're a risk to his own authoritarian rule.

Everything else is people applying their own lens to the battle. Putin says it's about Nazis, Chomsky says it's about NATO control, Pilger says it's western imperialism. . Name a person and they're claiming Ukraine is completely linked to the lens they've been looking through their whole life.

Putin invaded with hundreds of thousands of people, bombs, rockets, it's well beyond what any reasonable leader/country would do, even if they thought Nazis were next door. (Keep in mind Russia also borders Authoritarian monsters such as Lukashenko in Belarus or Aliyev in Azerbaijan who are constantly murdering their own people). So the idea that Russia cares about people in adjoining countries is completely and utterly stupid.

 

[Chief]

NATO isn't about oil (clearly the facts debunk this idea). Democratic countries are falling over themselves to join NATO (and the EU) because there are huge benefits.

Supply of oil is a pretty big chunk of it.

 

[Chief]

So the idea that Russia cares about people in adjoining countries is completely and utterly stupid.

Oh yeah, he doesn't give a s**t about people.

 

[Saint]

Supply of oil is a pretty big chunk of it.

Is it really? NATO's greatest threat/opponent is Russia. The greatest supplier of NATO/EU nation's oil/gas is Russia.

It's like telling Australians that our Number 1 trade partner is the biggest threat to our trade.

 

[Chief]

Is it really? NATO's greatest threat/opponent is Russia. The greatest supplier of NATO/EU nation's oil/gas is Russia.

It's like telling Australians that our Number 1 trade partner is the biggest threat to our trade.

Pretty weird tightrope, isn't it?

 

[Malifice]

Supply of oil is a pretty big chunk of it.

The Russians were already providing most of the European Oil (and Gas) as already shown, and the Europeans were committed to getting more off them (NORD 2 pipeline) notwithstanding Putins absolute dickery in murdering dissidents and rivals, mucking about with cyberwarfare and misinformation campaigns that contributed to Brexit and the US problems, flying jets into NATO airspace, shooting down airliners, annexing Crimea, subverting elections and basically making himself a dictator for life, and all the other bullshit he's done.

All Putin has done here is stop all of that, and force the Europeans to deal with the Yanks (via proxies in the Middle East) and to ramp up renewables, and strengthen NATO.

He's miscalculated badly here.

 

[Malifice]

It's like telling Australians that our Number 1 trade partner is the biggest threat to our trade.

Umm. Yeah. China.

Of course the guys responsible for the lions share of your trade are the guys you're most vulnerable to if they get pissed off.

 

[Saint]

Umm. Yeah. China.

Of course the guys responsible for the lions share of your trade are the guys you're most vulnerable to if they get pissed off.

The threat is if they stop buying our stuff, not that they might sink or blockade the ships carrying the stuff we're sending to them.

 

[Malifice]

The threat is if they stop buying our stuff, not that they might sink or blockade the ships carrying the stuff we're sending to them.

Why do you think they're taking control off the South China sea with naval bases (and taking control of trade lanes elsewhere via the Belt and Road initiative)?

 

[Saint]

Why do you think they're taking control off the South China sea with naval bases (and taking control of trade lanes elsewhere via the Belt and Road initiative)?

To project power into the region so they can't become blockaded. Where do the routes through there go? China mostly. It's not like people pay $$ to whoever claims to own the ocean, nor is there not a really easy alternative route for anyone other than Vietnam. When was the last time any nation actually blockaded a shipping lane to any effect?

 

[Malifice]

To project power into the region so they can't become blockaded. Where do the routes through there go?

Almost a third of global crude oil and over half of global liquefied natural gas (LNG) passes through the South China Sea each year.

South China Sea Oil, LNG trade routes: