Win Prizes Ask an Atheist II

[Gethelred]

Welcome to the Ask an Atheist thread II.

Previous part:

Win Prizes - Ask an Atheist - Shoe's on the other foot now!

Alright, we're going to have a change of tack. As I'm sure you can see, the thread title has been changed to Ask an Atheist. People who have a question to ask of the atheists who populate this thread - more than the christians do - should feel free to ask questions of them. If you've still got...

www.bigfooty.com

Standard board rules apply.

 

[Engimal v3]

I don't agree. Every culture comes up with a god to give purpose to existence. Why is that?

I don't know, but how could you argue with the idea that we're born atheist?

 

[travelli]

travelli

I was thinking about my support for Essendon and wondering if you have similar reasons for your faith.

I can see that Essendon are shite and their problems run deep with coterie groups and old dinosaurs (Sheedy for example) holding too much power, and a focus on winning at all costs rather than building the right culture leading to the club making poor choices over recent decades (not years, decades).

You said that you follow Christianity because it was the faith of your ancestors, yet we see politics in the creation of the bible, the church fighting science, systemic child abuse, opposition to equality, etc.

The church is more dysfunctional than just about any organisation I can think of, including the Bombers. That applies to the Catholic church and fundie churches, though I'm sure it applies equally to many other brands of Christianity.

I refuse to support another AFL club despite the flaws and losing culture at Tullamarine. If you recognise the flaws of your faith, why do you stay with Christianity?

I worked for the Catholic Church for a few years - in education, but part of the main Diocese office. Believe me that everyone in there (Bishop included) is aware and ashamed of the sh!tfight we have made of things over the years. But we still believe that overall, there is so much good that we are trying to achieve that it is worth sticking with. And at the end of the day, as the catholic church (small c), we essentially absorb the good ideas from all faiths. People think we are inflexible, but over time, we change regularly, if you take regularly as every 50 - 100 years.

I was part of a progressive Catholic group pushing for change through the Plenary Council including male or female priests (women currently run the Catholic Church), ability for the clergy to marry and acceptance of homosexuality (sexuality is God given). That was a couple years ago, and the suggestions fell on their arse, but you need to be patient in a 2000 year organisation. I'm confident it will happen.

But anyway, to cut this story short, that is why I stick with the church and bring my kids up the same. It's not really a choice. It just is who we are.

I can see how this is a bit like being born into a football team. However, I feel the need to caution you - Essendon are and have always been Evil.

 

[travelli]

I don't know, but how could you argue with the idea that we're born atheist?

Because we are born with the idea that we deserve to be here. And that we are loved.

 

[Engimal v3]

Because we are born with the idea that we deserve to be here. And that we are loved.

You reckon a baby thinks that?

 

[Roylion]

Every culture comes up with a god to give purpose to existence. Why is that?

Ignorance and self absorption?

Why does there need to be a purpose to existence?

 

[western royboy]

I worked for the Catholic Church for a few years - in education, but part of the main Diocese office. Believe me that everyone in there (Bishop included) is aware and ashamed of the sh!tfight we have made of things over the years.

Slightly off topic but related. If the above statement were true…why do Dioceses continue to try and * victims of clerical abuse over? If you were ashamed you’d put your hands up and try and work it out - buy they don’t…they employ gutter tactics to try and * then over again and again and even after they’ve been shown to be the lowest form of human life in one case and had their arse handed to them on a plate, they go right back to the start with the next one and go harder. So with respect you may be ashamed but the Bishops and the Legal are not one bit. And sadly I’ve got far too many cases to prove it.

 

[travelli]

You reckon a baby thinks that?

Absolutely. Babies are very demanding.

 

[travelli]

Slightly off topic but related. If the above statement were true…why do Dioceses continue to try and * victims of clerical abuse over? If you were ashamed you’d put your hands up and try and work it out - buy they don’t…they employ gutter tactics to try and * then over again and again and even after they’ve been shown to be the lowest form of human life in one case and had their arse handed to them on a plate, they go right back to the start with the next one and go harder. So with respect you may be ashamed but the Bishops and the Legal are not one bit. And sadly I’ve got far too many cases to prove it.

I think they are trying to fix it. There are presentations at the end of mass these days about sexual abuse and the responsibility of every parishioner to report it. Everyone is aware.

Historically, what ever fkd up belief that enabled it in the past is horrific. It shakes every parishioner, but we have to conclude that it is a person (individual bad priest or teacher) thing, not an institutional thing. As far as making things right for the victim, I am not sure what to say. How can we fix that?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

I think they are trying to fix it. There are presentations at the end of mass these days about sexual abuse and the responsibility of every parishioner to report it. Everyone is aware.

Historically, what ever fkd up belief that enabled it in the past is horrific. It shakes every parishioner, but we have to conclude that it is a person (individual bad priest or teacher) thing, not an institutional thing. As far as making things right for the victim, I am not sure what to say. How can we fix that?

You may need to sell some of the extensive CBD property portfolios to fund reparations.

 

[travelli]

Ignorance and self absorption?

Why does there need to be a purpose to existence?

I think the example of the baby is a good one. It insists on sustenance, attention and love. It is an instinctive understanding.

 

[Roylion]

I think the example of the baby is a good one. It insists on sustenance, attention and love.

For survival? Not surprising. That doesn't mean there needs to be a purpose to existence.

It is an instinctive understanding.

That is no way implies there's a purpose for existence.

 

[western royboy]

I think they are trying to fix it. There are presentations at the end of mass these days about sexual abuse and the responsibility of every parishioner to report it. Everyone is aware.

Historically, what ever fkd up belief that enabled it in the past is horrific. It shakes every parishioner, but we have to conclude that it is a person (individual bad priest or teacher) thing, not an institutional thing. As far as making things right for the victim, I am not sure what to say. How can we fix that?

Just reflect back on what you’ve written here…you have to conclude that it’s one bad - but the reality is it’s not, in some cases it was the whole sick twisted orchard

As for what can you do for victims - how about make a very traumatic and re traumatising process easier instead of forcing people through the wringer again and again. Watch the ABC doco “Revelation”

The average church goer these days switches off and pretends it’s all gone away - it hasn’t and still the Church tries to deny and delay dealing with victims - Ridsdale charged again late last week - the cops are sick of doing it, it seemingly serves no point, he’s close to death and he’s never getting out, but sone victims still need the conviction to enable the civil litigation because the Church will deny it if they don’t. How very Christian, my how the Church has learned from its mistakes…

And all the while at a Church not far from me a dwindling number of indoctrinated folk in the 70’s turn up to each Sunday to hear the Priest apologies for the sins of the past and ask for forgiveness. Many of the parishioners had sons who once attended and in some cases abused in the same place. Some of those boys are no longer with us, some will never grow up, regardless none of those boys will ever darken it’s door again.

 

[Total Power]

Is your consciousness much different to the Christian concept of love?

I think it is close, but I like the idea that the God of Love is less individual, more giving. Less about the self, more about the sacrifices you make to bring everybody along with you.

The Christian God is a man made one. This is why his emotions are exactly reflective of a man. He gets angry, jealous, kind etc etc. You can pick and choose one aspect of Christian God and point finger at that but if you read the Bible, "love" is not unconditional. Infact obedience comes ahead of righteousness. This is what i argue with the believers like VD all the time. And somehow their faith is unshakable. So reasoning and logic is not sufficient to debate with the heathens. Nothing will change their mind.

 

[evolved2]

Because we are born with the idea that we deserve to be here. And that we are loved.

That's only if the parents are able to meet the needs of the baby/infant so that the child develops secure attachment. It's not an innate knowing. Look up attachment theory.

Babies are born with no knowledge of gods and have no religious belief until it's imparted to them. IOW we're all born atheists. I like to think atheism is the natural state of humanity, though you could argue that point.

I'm not sure how I feel about North. Carlton is pure evil and several other clubs have different levels of evilness in them, but I always admired Wayne Carey as a footballer. He's the best I've seen.

 

[Total Power]

But anyway, to cut this story short, that is why I stick with the church and bring my kids up the same. It's not really a choice. It just is who we are.

I can see how this is a bit like being born into a football team. However, I feel the need to caution you - Essendon are and have always been Evil.

Well it's absurd IMO. The creator of the universe wants attention from humans..the same humans he cursed, so we are forced to sin. But due to that 'sin' he wants us to 'accept' him as a saviour. Wow, just think about it. All this sacrificing himself for sin etc, could have been prevented if he didn't throw a tantrum about a certain woman eating an apple in the first place.

A man holds a gun to your head and says, "You worship me and I will love you forever. I will shower you with whatever you want. You will have peace and happiness all the rest of your days. Don't kneel and worship me and I'll blow your brains out. Now... the choice is yours. It's your Free Will." : /

Before you say but Jesus never said that, he actually did.

Mark 9:43, 48-49 “And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire…where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ For everyone will be salted with fire.”

AND

Jesus said, "Matthew 13:41-42, 49-50 “The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”


This is the same god which:

1. Drowned every single person on earth except one family , cause he was sick of us sinning. (And he didn't know this will happen).
2. He ruins Egypts economy with plagues , floods and what not and kills every single first born cause Egypt killed babies of his chosen people. (Yeah doesn't sound like humans at all).
3. He helps his chosen people commit numerous genocides, including Jericho (Joshua 6:20-21), Heshbon (Deuteronomy 2:32-35), Bashan (Deuteronomy 3:3-7), Midian (Numbers 31:7-18), and the Amalekites (1 Samuel 15:1-9).
4. Told Moses sex slaves are completely ok.
5. Women are inferior.
6. Slavery is ok.
7. Unbelievers must not be befriended


etc etc.


From the creator of the universe.


Are you feeling the love yet? How is this a God I would even want to be close to?

 

[South Tiger]

I worked for the Catholic Church for a few years - in education, but part of the main Diocese office. Believe me that everyone in there (Bishop included) is aware and ashamed of the sh!tfight we have made of things over the years. But we still believe that overall, there is so much good that we are trying to achieve that it is worth sticking with. And at the end of the day, as the catholic church (small c), we essentially absorb the good ideas from all faiths. People think we are inflexible, but over time, we change regularly, if you take regularly as every 50 - 100 years.

I was part of a progressive Catholic group pushing for change through the Plenary Council including male or female priests (women currently run the Catholic Church), ability for the clergy to marry and acceptance of homosexuality (sexuality is God given). That was a couple years ago, and the suggestions fell on their arse, but you need to be patient in a 2000 year organisation. I'm confident it will happen.

But anyway, to cut this story short, that is why I stick with the church and bring my kids up the same. It's not really a choice. It just is who we are.

I can see how this is a bit like being born into a football team. However, I feel the need to caution you - Essendon are and have always been Evil.

Jesus Christ (the Truth) said that there would be cockle in the Church, and there is, so you could ask an atheist, is it true that there is cockle in the Catholic Church? (Matthew 13:24-30) And they have to answer yes, and that's because Jesus Christ can only speak the Truth.

You could also ask the atheists how things are going in their "enlightened" world

 

[South Tiger]

Just reflect back on what you’ve written here…you have to conclude that it’s one bad - but the reality is it’s not, in some cases it was the whole sick twisted orchard

As for what can you do for victims - how about make a very traumatic and re traumatising process easier instead of forcing people through the wringer again and again. Watch the ABC doco “Revelation”

So what you're suggesting is that Catholics should become antichrists like you because of the cockle? (Matthew 13:24-30)

 

[western royboy]

So what you're suggesting is that Catholics should become antichrists like you because of the cockle? (Matthew 13:24-30)

Not at all, I’m saying don’t accept everything you are told to be true…particularly by these types…sound familiar

 

[travelli]

The Christian God is a man made one. This is why his emotions are exactly reflective of a man. He gets angry, jealous, kind etc etc. You can pick and choose one aspect of Christian God and point finger at that but if you read the Bible, "love" is not unconditional. Infact obedience comes ahead of righteousness. This is what i argue with the believers like VD all the time. And somehow their faith is unshakable. So reasoning and logic is not sufficient to debate with the heathens. Nothing will change their mind.

You are moving away from the question and dwelling on the literal interpretation of the bible. I think there is another thread for that.

I was asking if you thought the concept of consciousness was similar to the christian concept of universal love.

 

[travelli]

Well it's absurd IMO. The creator of the universe wants attention from humans..the same humans he cursed, so we are forced to sin. But due to that 'sin' he wants us to 'accept' him as a saviour. Wow, just think about it. All this sacrificing himself for sin etc, could have been prevented if he didn't throw a tantrum about a certain woman eating an apple in the first place.

A man holds a gun to your head and says, "You worship me and I will love you forever. I will shower you with whatever you want. You will have peace and happiness all the rest of your days. Don't kneel and worship me and I'll blow your brains out. Now... the choice is yours. It's your Free Will." : /

Before you say but Jesus never said that, he actually did.

Mark 9:43, 48-49 “And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire…where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ For everyone will be salted with fire.”

AND

Jesus said, "Matthew 13:41-42, 49-50 “The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”


This is the same god which:

1. Drowned every single person on earth except one family , cause he was sick of us sinning. (And he didn't know this will happen).
2. He ruins Egypts economy with plagues , floods and what not and kills every single first born cause Egypt killed babies of his chosen people. (Yeah doesn't sound like humans at all).
3. He helps his chosen people commit numerous genocides, including Jericho (Joshua 6:20-21), Heshbon (Deuteronomy 2:32-35), Bashan (Deuteronomy 3:3-7), Midian (Numbers 31:7-18), and the Amalekites (1 Samuel 15:1-9).
4. Told Moses sex slaves are completely ok.
5. Women are inferior.
6. Slavery is ok.
7. Unbelievers must not be befriended


etc etc.


From the creator of the universe.


Are you feeling the love yet? How is this a God I would even want to be close to?

Why preach? I was trying to get some understanding of consciousness.

 

[Total Power]

You are moving away from the question and dwelling on the literal interpretation of the bible. I think there is another thread for that.

I was asking if you thought the concept of consciousness was similar to the christian concept of universal love.

What is the Christian concept of universal love? love cannot be conditional and universal.

Consciousness doesn't have a property, hence you cannot say it's a concept. Love is a property/concept.

 

[Total Power]

Why preach? I was trying to get some understanding of consciousness.

I am having a discussion on why this God who condones all these things should not be associated with love. Sorry you felt otherwise. I am merely offering a Non-Christian perspective on this.

 

[travelli]

What is the Christian concept of universal love? love cannot be conditional and universal.

Consciousness doesn't have a property, hence you cannot say it's a concept. Love is a property/concept.

So what is consciousness? Awareness?

 

[travelli]

For survival? Not surprising. That doesn't mean there needs to be a purpose to existence.

That is no way implies there's a purpose for existence.

I am saying that people instinctively search for a life's purpose, not necessarily that there is one.

You are a teacher aren't you? Why did you go there? Because it's cruisy? No. For the cash? Doubt it. The women? Unlikely.

Teaching is more a vocation than a job, dedicating your life to improving the opportunities for the younger generation. I would think that it is the satisfaction and purpose that drew you to the profession.

 

[Total Power]

So what is consciousness? Awareness?

Did you send you a video about consciousness once? check your previous PM's. Don't wish to post it here for obvious reasons.