Win Prizes Ask an Atheist II

[Gethelred]

Welcome to the Ask an Atheist thread II.

Previous part:

Win Prizes - Ask an Atheist - Shoe's on the other foot now!

Alright, we're going to have a change of tack. As I'm sure you can see, the thread title has been changed to Ask an Atheist. People who have a question to ask of the atheists who populate this thread - more than the christians do - should feel free to ask questions of them. If you've still got...

www.bigfooty.com

Standard board rules apply.

 

[Total Power]

You are talking like an atheist, which is fine. I'm suggesting that we DO matter. We are part of something larger.

I said I AM an atheist above, when it comes to religion and deities. I agree we are a part of something larger but it doesn't involve a personal god or an intervening god. If you say we have a purpose you need to explain what purpose do other animals serve in this world. Can you seriously disagree that humans go extinct, this planet will breathe a sigh of relief, however if "bees" or "birds" go extinct our eco system will collapse.

So who serves more purpose to this planet?

 

[travelli]

Two twins are born,
one becomes a moderately successful business person followed by a stint in local politics. Dies at 84, surrounded by family.
one becomes a washed up alcoholic and dies alone at 34.

Does either outcome matter? Has one done "better"?

 

[Gethelred]

Two twins are born,
one becomes a moderately successful business person followed by a stint in local politics. Dies at 84, surrounded by family.
one becomes a washed up alcoholic and dies alone at 34.

Does either outcome matter? Has one done "better"?

Define 'better'.

 

[travelli]

Define 'better'.

Better is in quotes so you can decide if it is important

 

[Total Power]

Better is in quotes so you can decide if it is important

Many geniuses died alcoholic at an early age, but gave a lot more to the world than those who lived till 90. It's extremely subjective what you mean by better, it's mostly because objective morality doesn't exist.

 

[Total Power]

Define 'gave a lot more to the world'. Isn't it the same question as define 'better'?

Like a scientific invention, a musical piece etc that we still use/listen to.

I personally don't think it's better/worse, just saying they did a lot more for humanity than someone who lived an ordinary life. Some may call it 'better' depending on their benchmark/morality.

 

[evolved2]

Two twins are born,
one becomes a moderately successful business person followed by a stint in local politics. Dies at 84, surrounded by family.
one becomes a washed up alcoholic and dies alone at 34.

Does either outcome matter?

In the bigger scheme of things, no. On an individual level, certainly.

Has one done "better"?

Not enough information provided to make a conclusion.

Humans are a product of the environment around us, and twins 1 and 2 would encounter different environmental influences that have led them on different paths.

That's one of the reasons Christianity falls apart - my reasons for being an atheist are valid to me. I can't force myself to believe in a god even if I want to, so why should I be punished in the afterlife over being honest with myself? Why should someone born in Lahore be tortured forever because they were conditioned to believe in the wrong god?

Biblical justice makes no sense at all.

 

[Gethelred]

Better is in quotes so you can decide if it is important

The problem given requires one to place a value judgement without telling me what is valued. I can provide my own answer, but each person's response to that question will differ. There's also the fact that your scenario is exceedingly narrow. Your washed up alcoholic have any children? What drove them to alcoholism? What did they do with their life and their time?

You've given me two stats about them - their alcoholism and their death - and asked me to form a judgement based on values you've not provided me.

Either explicitly ask me what you want to know, or deal with the fact that your question has too many holes to be indicative of very much.

 

[Engimal v3]

Two twins are born,
one becomes a moderately successful business person followed by a stint in local politics. Dies at 84, surrounded by family.
one becomes a washed up alcoholic and dies alone at 34.

Does either outcome matter? Has one done "better"?

I don't know why people are giving you such vague responses lol

It's the first one. The first one has done better because he's not a dead drunk at 34.

 

[travelli]

In the bigger scheme of things, no. On an individual level, certainly.

Why when both are dead?

 

[travelli]

The problem given requires one to place a value judgement without telling me what is valued. I can provide my own answer, but each person's response to that question will differ. There's also the fact that your scenario is exceedingly narrow. Your washed up alcoholic have any children? What drove them to alcoholism? What did they do with their life and their time?

You've given me two stats about them - their alcoholism and their death - and asked me to form a judgement based on values you've not provided me.

Either explicitly ask me what you want to know, or deal with the fact that your question has too many holes to be indicative of very much.

is there such a thing as a life well lived? Does it matter what we do?

 

[travelli]

I don't know why people are giving you such vague responses lol

It's the first one. The first one has done better because he's not a dead drunk at 34.

Why judge the first as better when the outcome is exactly the same?

 

[Engimal v3]

Why judge the first as better when the outcome is exactly the same?

You get one chance at life and one bloke wasted it.

 

[Chief]

Two twins are born,
one becomes a moderately successful business person followed by a stint in local politics. Dies at 84, surrounded by family.
one becomes a washed up alcoholic and dies alone at 34.

Does either outcome matter? Has one done "better"?

The 84 year old politician... how many assaults did he commit on young women?

Need this sort of detail.

 

[evolved2]

Why when both are dead?

Any human life is the sum of a single egg and sperm which fuse and develop in utero until a baby is born. The average male produces 500 billion sperm during a lifetime. The average woman is born with 2 million egg follicles and releases 450 mature eggs.

A different sperm or egg creates a different person.

The odds of any of us being born are astronomical. While not miraculous, those odds are longer than any lottery win. This life is our lottery win.

If you won $100 million and spent it all - went on trips around the globe, bought your dream house and cars, had use of a luxury yacht, fed 10,000 starving kids, and/or whatever else you desired...would it matter to you? Of course it would AT THE TIME. It wouldn't matter after you're dead because nothing will matter to you at that point. Why? Because you'll be ******* dead!

I don't require the illusion of an afterlife to make this life meaningful to me, and I presume you don't either. You have a family that creates meaning to you, you have a world full of beauty to explore, you have the love of a woman. This is your lottery win just as much as it is mine.

Once that life is spent, it's over. Reality doesn't have to have a happy ending.

 

[Total Power]

Any human life is the sum of a single egg and sperm which fuse and develop in utero until a baby is born. The average male produces 500 billion sperm during a lifetime. The average woman is born with 2 million egg follicles and releases 450 mature eggs.

A different sperm or egg creates a different person.

The odds of any of us being born are astronomical. While not miraculous, those odds are longer than any lottery win. This life is our lottery win.

If you won $100 million and spent it all - went on trips around the globe, bought your dream house and cars, had use of a luxury yacht, fed 10,000 starving kids, and/or whatever else you desired...would it matter to you? Of course it would AT THE TIME. It wouldn't matter after you're dead because nothing will matter to you at that point. Why? Because you'll be ******* dead!

I don't require the illusion of an afterlife to make this life meaningful to me, and I presume you don't either. You have a family that creates meaning to you, you have a world full of beauty to explore, you have the love of a woman. This is your lottery win just as much as it is mine.

Once that life is spent, it's over. Reality doesn't have to have a happy ending.

Good post, just like movies everyone craves for a happy ending. It amuses me really. The desire to be loved, to keep living on, not vanish into oblivion etc etc. Somewhat i understand why people desperately want to believe this.

 

[evolved2]

Good post, just like movies everyone craves for a happy ending. It amuses me really. The desire to be loved, to keep living on, not vanish into oblivion etc etc. Somewhat i understand why people desperately want to believe this.

Survival and all that entails is built into our genes. That includes everything from having children to wanting an afterlife.

 

[travelli]

Any human life is the sum of a single egg and sperm which fuse and develop in utero until a baby is born. The average male produces 500 billion sperm during a lifetime. The average woman is born with 2 million egg follicles and releases 450 mature eggs.

A different sperm or egg creates a different person.

The odds of any of us being born are astronomical. While not miraculous, those odds are longer than any lottery win. This life is our lottery win.

If you won $100 million and spent it all - went on trips around the globe, bought your dream house and cars, had use of a luxury yacht, fed 10,000 starving kids, and/or whatever else you desired...would it matter to you? Of course it would AT THE TIME. It wouldn't matter after you're dead because nothing will matter to you at that point. Why? Because you'll be ******* dead!

I don't require the illusion of an afterlife to make this life meaningful to me, and I presume you don't either. You have a family that creates meaning to you, you have a world full of beauty to explore, you have the love of a woman. This is your lottery win just as much as it is mine.

Once that life is spent, it's over. Reality doesn't have to have a happy ending.

I think alot of atheism is rejection of the unproven. Dedication to science, with all of it's deficiencies, gives a kind of buffer to the unknown, but deep down, as we suck air in and out of our lungs, we are aware that we are part of something larger. Whether we accept religious explanations or not is another matter

 

[Roylion]

I think alot of atheism is rejection of the unproven. Dedication to science, with all of it's deficiencies, gives a kind of buffer to the unknown, but deep down, as we suck air in and out of our lungs, we are aware that we are part of something larger.

The universe is certainly larger.

Whether we accept religious explanations or not is another matter

Why should we accept religious explanations?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

I think alot of atheism is rejection of the unproven. Dedication to science, with all of it's deficiencies, gives a kind of buffer to the unknown, but deep down, as we suck air in and out of our lungs, we are aware that we are part of something larger. Whether we accept religious explanations or not is another matter

Atheism is a rejection of cult indoctrination.

 

[western royboy]

Atheism is a rejection of cult indoctrination.

Alleluia

 

[travelli]

The universe is certainly larger.


Why should we accept religious explanations?

I'm not saying you should. It is up to you if you want to listen to the ideas of the people who have experienced life before you.

 

[Roylion]

It is up to you if you want to listen to the ideas of the people who have experienced life before you.

And why should I listen to them?

Purely on the basis they had life before I did? That doesn't make them any more knowledgesble or insightful. In some ways you could could consider they may be less so.

 

[Total Power]

I think alot of atheism is rejection of the unproven.

It's totally the opposite. Things we considered 'divine' turned out to be a natural explanation. We have also now observed evolution of simple lifeforms merge into complex ones. ToE validated. If someone told you this 100 years ago you'd think they are mad as intelligent design was the only valid explanation of life.

It is up to you if you want to listen to the ideas of the people who have experienced life before you.

Yet for vast majority of human history the concept of personal God or loving , kind, angry, sad, emotional etc etc.God(s) didn't exist. So which people are you talking about? the one that confirms your belief? The whole idea of God like it's been mentioned in the Abrahamic religion is relatively new.

 

[evolved2]

I think alot of atheism is rejection of the unproven.

I agree in a sense, though scepticism is an approach everyone takes to extraordinary claims without accompanying evidence. When you get offered $50 million from a Nigerian prince, you reject the offer for the same reasons I reject god.

I presume you reject the existence of all gods other than one even though thousands have been believed in across time. If so, you're an atheist to over 99% of gods that have been invented by humankind.

Atheism is very simple. If you acknowledge the reasons you reject Zeus and Thor, you're well on the way to knowing why I reject biblegod or any god really.

Dedication to science, with all of it's deficiencies, gives a kind of buffer to the unknown, but deep down, as we suck air in and out of our lungs, we are aware that we are part of something larger. Whether we accept religious explanations or not is another matter

You're primarily discussing religion with atheists who have a bent towards science on this and the bible thread. Most atheists aren't like us. In fact, we're all born without belief in god and therefore we were all once atheists.

Atheism is the natural state of humankind until we're taught about gods. The god we believe in is almost entirely dependent on culture. White cultures like Australia and the US favor white gods like Jesus. Brown cultures like Indonesia and the Middle East favor brown gods. In the beginning, man made god in his own image. Haven't you agreed that you follow your version of god for similar reasons?

I actually agree with you that we're part of something bigger, which is a concept that is still working itself into my awareness and lifestyle. That something bigger isn't god - it's the people and cultures around us, the animals and especially pets in my home, the plants, trees, grass, beaches, lakes. That is my form of spirituality that I derive pleasure and fulfilment from.

Everything that theism provides is available to atheists - I can't think of a single thing theism has to offer me which isn't already at my fingertips. Some atheists even believe in reincarnation so an afterlife of sorts is on offer for those who have that bent.

Organised religion demands rules and regulations that make no sense in the 21st century. If two men or women, or two men and two women want to get busy behind closed doors, why should anyone care? It makes a lot more sense than having a group of people get together in church and roll around on the floor for a deity they pretend to communicate with. You're actually missing out by not acknowledging the truth that god isn't real.