Coach How important are senior coaches?

[DeathlyAccurate]

I post this fully expecting not many to agree with me, but I believe (at the top end at least) that they only make as much of a difference as the players allow them to.

At the lower end, for coaches who are at the helm of bottom teams, I can see more of an impact because it’s about the character of the coach and not letting heads drop etc. Roos and even early Voss are good examples of this. Roos didn’t experience a lot of on-field success at Melbourne and Voss struggled early but they know how to deal with 40+ different personalities.

It’s the reason that messiah-type hires like Malthouse at Carlton, Clarko at North etc. rarely work. You can’t force success based on aura alone. Coming in to a failing club as a maverick who’s expected to turn it all around is far different to having experienced the lows of that club and learning how to build that specific group behind closed doors.

When Longmire eventually is replaced, I’d much rather it be by someone who worked along side him or a relative unknown who’s has a good apprenticeship at another club, opposed to a saviour who comes with a reputation and perhaps an arrogance that doesn’t work for everyone.

My two cents and perhaps not worth a thread but with a few big name coaches under pressure at the moment it’s been on my mind recently.


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[Bunk Moreland]

Very important for mine.

They’re a big piece of the puzzle - without one that fits well the club will not realise it’s potential.

I think the most important thing is harmony and everybody pulling in the same direction towards goals they agree on - board, exec, coaches, players.

They’re not a panacea however - they can’t make up for massive failings elsewhere in the organisation. I place Clarkson in that position at the moment. He seems to be coming under pressure and I think it’s a little bit mad personally. He has the worst playing list in living memory in terms of talent and experience. He can’t perform miracles. A coach like him with runs on the board is probably their best bet at the moment I think. An unproven coach would just be thrown to the wolves.

 

[Cmarsh]

It's really the quality of the list that make winning coaches look good.

 

[Freomaniac]

It's really the quality of the list that make winning coaches look good.

you are half right.

The quality of the list helps.

But a semi decent list that finishes 5th to 12th can be a top 4 squad if they get a good coach.

Look at fremantle under Ross Lyon in 2013-5.

 

[jackster83]

An inanimate carbon rod would be an improvement on ours.

 

[Freomaniac]

An inanimate carbon rod would be an improvement on ours.

sure it would.

Crows have been spoilt from 1993-2017.

6 coaches have at least got the crows to a prelim final at least once.

Graham Cornes: 1993

Blight: 1997-98

Gary Ayres: 2002

Neil Craig: 2005-6

Brenton Sanderson: 2012

Don Pyke: 2017.

 

[RAPPA]

I reckon if the Giants had Kingsley at the helm when Cameron had the Ferrari list, they would’ve nabbed at least one flag. Whilst the had coach is not the be all and end all, they are very important in setting the agenda.

 

[SSSSSS]

Yes but coaches need to either inherit or develop great leaders on the footy field to carry out their message for them and set the standard.

On field leadership is IMO the biggest factor in determining whether a list can win a flag or not.

Usually in any given year the difference man to man talent wise between the top 4 teams is very minimal. It's those on field leaders that make up the difference.

Those Brisbane, Geelong, Hawthorn and Richmond teams could have about half a dozen AFL standard captains if not more in the side.

 

[Freomaniac]

Yes but coaches need to either inherit or develop great leaders on the footy field to carry out their message for them and set the standard.

On field leadership is IMO the biggest factor in determining whether a list can win a flag or not.

Usually in any given year the difference man to man talent wise between the top 4 teams is very minimal. It's those on field leaders that make up the difference.

Those Brisbane, Geelong, Hawthorn and Richmond teams could have about half a dozen AFL standard captains if not more in the side.

I am sure it is....

 

[skinnyP]

Coaches are only important when they innovate. Otherwise, you may as well get chatgpt to coach your team

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

It's really the quality of the list that make winning coaches look good.

Kingsley, Voss and Fagan go against this.

 

[Freomaniac]

random260 is Ken Hinkley a good coach?

 

[greatwhiteshark]

I think they are very important but fir some reason everytime a club goes bad now they blame the assistants.

I would not like to bean assistant these days. Senior coaches get excuse after excuse for them

 

[justlookingaround]

Very important. It's probably easier to measure by how massively a bad coach can impact a side.
A good coach isn't guaranteed success, but a bad coach can set a team back a decade.

 

[Randomizor]

Will be replaced by ChatGPT before the decade is out

 

[powerrrrrrrrrrrr]

Only have to look at McRae and Kingsley to see the value of a coach.

Both take their teams from low on the ladder to the top within 12 months with virtually the same lists.

That’s the impact of coaching and coaching to your players strengths.

 

[Blue1980]

Only have to look at McRae and Kingsley to see the value of a coach.

Both take their teams from low on the ladder to the top within 12 months with virtually the same lists.

That’s the impact of coaching and coaching to your players strengths.

They can make a difference, but they can’t polish a turd.

Pies and Giants both had one bad season, and prior to that had been regular finalists. People didn’t expect them to bounce back as quick as they did but they are hardly in a North, West Coast, Hawthorn or now Richmond situation.

 

[mcgarnacle]

you are half right.

The quality of the list helps.

But a semi decent list that finishes 5th to 12th can be a top 4 squad if they get a good coach.

Look at fremantle under Ross Lyon in 2013-5.

Yep, I'd agree with that. A good coach will have attention to detail and ensure the players no only know the processes, but adhere to, and deliver it with intent at every training session, and every game. Letting things slide at training, like a lack of one-percenters, and expecting the team to suddenly turn it on in a game is asking for trouble. They play the way they train.

 

[juss]

I post this fully expecting not many to agree with me, but I believe (at the top end at least) that they only make as much of a difference as the players allow them to.

At the lower end, for coaches who are at the helm of bottom teams, I can see more of an impact because it’s about the character of the coach and not letting heads drop etc. Roos and even early Voss are good examples of this. Roos didn’t experience a lot of on-field success at Melbourne and Voss struggled early but they know how to deal with 40+ different personalities.

It’s the reason that messiah-type hires like Malthouse at Carlton, Clarko at North etc. rarely work. You can’t force success based on aura alone. Coming in to a failing club as a maverick who’s expected to turn it all around is far different to having experienced the lows of that club and learning how to build that specific group behind closed doors.

When Longmire eventually is replaced, I’d much rather it be by someone who worked along side him or a relative unknown who’s has a good apprenticeship at another club, opposed to a saviour who comes with a reputation and perhaps an arrogance that doesn’t work for everyone.

My two cents and perhaps not worth a thread but with a few big name coaches under pressure at the moment it’s been on my mind recently.


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Probably the single most important individual at a football club in terms of on field fortunes.

It doesn't really get much more important at the individual level.

One could argue the CEO or Football Manager, but I'd still say they have less direct influence on on field fortunes.

 

[ibd77]

Would be an interesting exercise to coach swap and see how the players would react.

Like taking McRae...at gun point, KGB style. Then dumping Kenny donuts discretely at Olympic Park Oval.

 

[mcgarnacle]

The sample size is small in Australian Football, but great example of a coach having an impact on a capable roster in other sports, two come to mind in recent times.

Andrew Webster with New Zealand Warriors in NRL. Took a bottom four team to the preliminary final in 2023 with largely the same team + the return of halfback Shaun Johnson.

Xabi Alonso with Bayer Leverkusen in Bundesliga. A perennial top 6 team in German Football over the past decade, but were in relegation zone when he took over in 2022. Brought them back up to a 5th place finish at the end of the 22/23 season, and they're newly crown champions now, 4 wins clear at the top of the table with 4 matches remaining in the 23/24 comp, and are unbeaten in 45 matches in all competitions - a european club record. Leverkusen have also broken Bayern Munich's strangle hold on the bundesliga of 11 consecutive titles. And Munich aren't a s**t team this season - they recently defeated Arsenal in the quarter finals of the Champions League, and face Real Madrid this week in the semi-finals.

There is plenty of interest in Xabi, and lots of vids on social media of him discussing his philosophies, and going about his work on the pitch.

Let me qualify this, you need the talent, you need the character and accountability within the playing group, but a coach who can initially drive it, and empower players to go on with it can be remarkable.