List Mgmt. 2024 Trade Thread

[LifestyleSaints]

Took 'em nine years, by 2012 the GC/GWS concessions were pretty much over (Tassie will just be beginning when we bottom out as hopeless because we have no senior players), and the AFL bailed them out with a handpicked (and funded) CEO and premiership coach. If you think that under any circumstance the AFL would bail us out in the same way, I have a bridge to sell you.

The only way we beat the entrenched structural disadvantage handed us by the AFL and their unfair rules (F/S and academies) is innovation. We need to develop the next cutting edge method onfield to get ahead of the pack. Hawthorn did it in 2008, Richmond in 2017. It can be done.

I'm on the record - I think the issues at St Kilda are cultural and organisational and not talent (innate born-with physical characteristics) based. We've had plenty of talent come through the doors - we need to develop it and utilise it much better.

Took 'em nine years I'm fine with that considering we have 1 flag in 125 years.
Again, I don't agree that we would become hopeless by trading those 4 players. I'm not saying we should do all 4 at the end of this season. Sinclair is the oldest so I would try and trade him out at the end of this year but as I said, the offer would need to be at least pick 15 or better. If we converted one "older" player each year into a FRDP to take to the Draft that would not make us hopeless. The proviso being that we take the extra FRDP's to the Draft. We need to look at the long term.
We need to develop the next cutting edge method onfield to get ahead of the pack.
I agree with this but everyone is doing it and unfortunately we cannot compete in this area with the rich clubs no matter what you think because money talks and bullshit walks.

 

[The Punter]

I agree with this but everyone is doing it and unfortunately we cannot compete in this area with the rich clubs no matter what you think because money talks and bullshit walks.

See, here I read "can't win, don't try".

The level of talent at clubs is very, very close. Coaching and development is where the gains can be made IMO. It's why Geelong and Sydney are the two most consistently successful clubs. Sydney play a completely different style to what they did in Longmire's early years as coach (when they were also excellent) because of innovation.

But if one thing is true in AFL footy it is this: losing is a habit.

 

[sammm]

Took 'em nine years, by 2012 the GC/GWS concessions were pretty much over (Tassie will just be beginning when we bottom out as hopeless because we have no senior players), and the AFL bailed them out with a handpicked (and funded) CEO and premiership coach. If you think that under any circumstance the AFL would bail us out in the same way, I have a bridge to sell you.

The only way we beat the entrenched structural disadvantage handed us by the AFL and their unfair rules (F/S and academies) is innovation. We need to develop the next cutting edge method onfield to get ahead of the pack. Hawthorn did it in 2008, Richmond in 2017. It can be done.

I'm on the record - I think the issues at St Kilda are cultural and organisational and not talent (innate born-with physical characteristics) based. We've had plenty of talent come through the doors - we need to develop it and utilise it much better.

How many times or years or even decades does a person blame culture and organisation?

Isn't just time to just stop thinking back. Look ahead

 

[Saintbloke]

I have little confidence in the club who reckons progress is dragging an ex-coach who really couldn't get his teams over the line in GFs, out of retirement to try and get some kind of success. It failed with Blight and it will again with Lyon. It is loser mentality, and that's what has plagued our club for decades.

 

[LifestyleSaints]

See, here I read "can't win, don't try".

The level of talent at clubs is very, very close. Coaching and development is where the gains can be made IMO. It's why Geelong and Sydney are the two most consistently successful clubs. Sydney play a completely different style to what they did in Longmire's early years as coach (when they were also excellent) because of innovation.

But if one thing is true in AFL footy it is this: losing is a habit.

I don't mind having this debate but I think we will have to agree to disagree. Sydney and Geelong are very bad examples in my opinion.

Sydney have hardly missed a finals series in 30 years and seem to rebuild overnight. Is it because they are just so superior to most of the other AFL teams? I don't think so. They have 2 huge advantages that we don't have. Northern Academy, no matter where they finish on the ladder (most years), they have access to top 10 talent. They then not only grab them at a 20% discount but they only have to cobble together junk picks to do it. Look at the farce last year where Gold Coast picked 4 FRDP's through their academy. Thank crikey the AFL have woken up and decided to review this otherwise all 4 Northern clubs would be perennially stuck at the top of the AFL ladder. Home ground advantage - Massive advantage that we don't have. Not only that, we sometimes play home games at the MCG against teams that are based at the MCG which further dilutes our position. We made a huge mistake going to Docklands instead of the MCG but that is another story.

Geelong have hardly missed a finals series in 40 years and seem to rebuild overnight. Is it because they are just so superior to most of the other AFL teams? I don't think so. They have been absolutely blessed with Father son selections and just like Northern Academies they receive a 20% discount and all they need to do is cobble together junk picks to match. Home Ground advantage, blessed again because the Victorian government has spent $200 Million rebuilding their dung heap so now they have a humongous home ground advantage that no other VIc team has.

Have both Sydney and Geelong been good at identifying and recruiting talented players? Yes they have. Have they developed their players well? Yes they have. When you add in the 2 massive advantages they have over us that being Academy, Home Ground advantage and Father sons it's not difficult to see why they have had so much sustained success.

I know you won't agree but that's ok....

 

[gubby88]

If we offer $15 million to LDU then this supporter who has supported St Kilda since 1971 will leave football forever. When will we ever learn that making big contract offers never works? One or two ACL's and it's all over FFS. Forget about FA's and huge offers. Keep going to the Draft until at least Tassie come in. Along the way try to generate more FRDP's by cashing in players that are over the age of 27 and keep adding young guns to our CORE group. Currently our core group is as follows.....
Higgins
Windy
Collard
Wang-Mil
Owens
Clark
King
Byrnes
Stocker
Dow
Keeler
Wilson
Henry
Hastie
Pou
Battle
Arie
Patton
Garcia
Sharman
Caminiti

That is a core of 21 players. If any other club comes to us and offers a FRDP for any of the other 24 players on our list take it and run and use it at the Draft on the best possible young gun. There are only 4 drafts left before Tassie come in so now is the time to do this. If we don't do this we will be ****ed. We will be a middling team for another 10 years. Not bad enough to get top 5 picks but not good enough to challenge. Over the next 4 Drafts I want us to use at least 12 FRDP's at the draft on young guns so that is another 12 young guns added to our current core of 21 as per above.

Currently the players that could and should get us a FRDP (that are obviously not in our young Core group) are as follows....

Steele - "A" grader turning 29 in December.
Marshall - "A" grader turning 29 in November.
Sinclair - "A" grader turning 30 in February.
Wilkie - "A" grader turning 29 in March.

If any club came to us and offered pick 15 or better for any of the above 4 players at the end of this year, I would take it.

Saints for the love of God, as above..

Please take LDU for millions

 

[littlecreatures]

He's not an rfa. You have trade for him

Correct, do we have any idea what we’re likely to throw at him in terms of picks? I’d hate to say it, but really wouldn’t be surprised to see either Clark or Membrey chucked in a deal.

 

[botts]

He's not an rfa. You have trade for him

Just wait till next year. No point trading for him

 

[Ads734]

Took 'em nine years I'm fine with that considering we have 1 flag in 125 years.
Again, I don't agree that we would become hopeless by trading those 4 players. I'm not saying we should do all 4 at the end of this season. Sinclair is the oldest so I would try and trade him out at the end of this year but as I said, the offer would need to be at least pick 15 or better. If we converted one "older" player each year into a FRDP to take to the Draft that would not make us hopeless. The proviso being that we take the extra FRDP's to the Draft. We need to look at the long term.
We need to develop the next cutting edge method onfield to get ahead of the pack.
I agree with this but everyone is doing it and unfortunately we cannot compete in this area with the rich clubs no matter what you think because money talks and bullshit walks.

Melbourne only good when they fixed up their re rioting and development.

For years they ‘tanked’ and their culture cooked them. Arguably getting rid of good older guys to early exposing and ruining their younger guys.

Hold onto old experienced heads aka Sydney Geelong and develop and recruit with what we have ie Wilson NAS etc

 

[wannabewinner]

For years they ‘tanked’ and their culture cooked them.

Their culture isn’t that great still. See Glenn Bartlett, et al. They just happened to win the Covid cup.

 

[Diehard Saint]

At the least didnt we get pick 12 or something back in that deal for Carlisle?

Carlisle and 12 for 5 and 25 or something?

You should probably ask David King.
He was all over it at the time

 

[gringo2011]

I agree and he has pretty much played a lone hand in the midfield for the last 4 years.

I wouldn’t say no to either, we have to spend the money.
would rather frontload the s**t out of someone like LDU.
North would probably accept the bitter pill this year knowing they would get pick 2

Putting Mc Muffin on a 10 year multimillion dollar sounds good in theory but hopefully with that type of contract you're getting an absolute match winner.

 

[gringo2011]

See, here I read "can't win, don't try".

The level of talent at clubs is very, very close. Coaching and development is where the gains can be made IMO. It's why Geelong and Sydney are the two most consistently successful clubs. Sydney play a completely different style to what they did in Longmire's early years as coach (when they were also excellent) because of innovation.

But if one thing is true in AFL footy it is this: losing is a habit.

I think we lack top end more than talent full stop. It's probably too early to rip everything up and start again considering that we haven't been able to see what we can do with a close to full list under Lyon.

I think we'll finish around 12th which should give us a very good pick and Dalrymple will be keen to prove himself. Hit 2025 fit and firing and see how we go. Chase a good FA and see what happens.

 

[The Jack]

What we’ve done for the last 50 years has netted us sfa. Take a chance. Do something different. Burst the bank. Nothing we do can be any worse than what we’ve already done. It can’t get any worse. Set the trend. Some of us have little time left. Stop ******* around. Crack the code ffs.

 

[StCicatriz]

What we’ve done for the last 50 years has netted us sfa. Take a chance. Do something different. Burst the bank. Nothing we do can be any worse than what we’ve already done. It can’t get any worse. Set the trend. Some of us have little time left. Stop ******* around. Crack the code ffs.

The options are:
- go back down to the bottom of the ladder so we get picks in the elite bracket (1-5). We won't tank so this means waiting 2-3 years for Steele and co to be ineffective and hope that the kids are no good. If this happens it'll be another 3-5 year rebuild. So you're talking 5-8 years... and we still probably come out no good... like the last 3 rebuilds... also gambling on how good those drafts are... its a s**t load of pain... time and risk...

- trade out what you have... problem is you won't get one of the elite picks... so you're in Goddard territory here where we let him go but did heck all with what we got for him... we don't get anything in the elite part of the draft because the only clubs who have those picks are rebuilding... they're s**t and any player we have won't agree to go there... this option ain't happening

- you trade for a ready made player who's elite. The problem will be convincing them... we ain't challenging for a flag... so all we have is $$$.


Tbh throw the $$$ at them. It beats the hell out of the other two options in terms of risk.

Beyond that you praying to AFL HQ for some assistance. More chance of brett ratten coaching a third AFL club.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

If we offer $15 million to LDU then this supporter who has supported St Kilda since 1971 will leave football forever. When will we ever learn that making big contract offers never works? One or two ACL's and it's all over FFS. Forget about FA's and huge offers. Keep going to the Draft until at least Tassie come in. Along the way try to generate more FRDP's by cashing in players that are over the age of 27 and keep adding young guns to our CORE group. Currently our core group is as follows.....
Higgins
Windy
Collard
Wang-Mil
Owens
Clark
King
Byrnes
Stocker
Dow
Keeler
Wilson
Henry
Hastie
Pou
Battle
Arie
Patton
Garcia
Sharman
Caminiti

That is a core of 21 players. If any other club comes to us and offers a FRDP for any of the other 24 players on our list take it and run and use it at the Draft on the best possible young gun. There are only 4 drafts left before Tassie come in so now is the time to do this. If we don't do this we will be ****ed. We will be a middling team for another 10 years. Not bad enough to get top 5 picks but not good enough to challenge. Over the next 4 Drafts I want us to use at least 12 FRDP's at the draft on young guns so that is another 12 young guns added to our current core of 21 as per above.

Currently the players that could and should get us a FRDP (that are obviously not in our young Core group) are as follows....

Steele - "A" grader turning 29 in December.
Marshall - "A" grader turning 29 in November.
Sinclair - "A" grader turning 30 in February.
Wilkie - "A" grader turning 29 in March.

If any club came to us and offered pick 15 or better for any of the above 4 players at the end of this year, I would take it.

See ya Nexus


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

I have little confidence in the club who reckons progress is dragging an ex-coach who really couldn't get his teams over the line in GFs, out of retirement to try and get some kind of success. It failed with Blight and it will again with Lyon. It is loser mentality, and that's what has plagued our club for decades.

Lyon’s kicking at goal let us down terribly

And Freo too.

Jam Tins Mark II


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Should have taken Matt Crouch

5

Matt Crouch

Age

29

Ht

183cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

28.4

5star

K

12.0

4star

HB

16.4

5star

M

3.3

3star

T

3.9

5star

CL

4.8

5star

D

24.9

5star

K

9.7

4star

HB

15.1

5star

M

2.4

3star

T

2.4

3star

CL

4.4

5star

D

21.2

5star

K

10.4

4star

HB

10.8

5star

M

4.4

4star

T

3.4

5star

CL

2.0

4star

a few years back to play alongside his brother

Exactly type of ballpig inside extractor we now desperately need

 

[akaifu]

Should have taken Matt Crouch a few years back to play alongside his brother

Exactly type of ballpig inside extractor we now desperately need

Another slow midfielder that can't hit a target by foot? No thanks.

Additionally, he's unfit and wouldn't suit our running system

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Another slow midfielder that can't hit a target by foot? No thanks.

Additionally, he's unfit and wouldn't suit our running system

He looked fine to me tonight ... in and under dishing out by hand ...he doesn't need to kick it

 

[Mav3rick]

I have little confidence in the club who reckons progress is dragging an ex-coach who really couldn't get his teams over the line in GFs, out of retirement to try and get some kind of success. It failed with Blight and it will again with Lyon. It is loser mentality, and that's what has plagued our club for decades.

What a crock of s**t. Anyone with half a brain knows Lyon is a winning coach and has overachieved everywhere he's gone. "But he didn't win a flag derrr" such a lazy nothing argument

 

[wannabewinner]

Should have taken Matt Crouch a few years back to play alongside his brother

Exactly type of ballpig inside extractor we now desperately need

Do you want to punish yourself or the rest of us by reminding us of the 2013 draft?

Anytime you are feeling the need to, you can go read the 2013 AFL draft on Wikipedia. Most of with enough memory don’t need reminding.

 

[Saintbloke]

Lyon’s kicking at goal let us down terribly

And Freo too.

Jam Tins Mark II


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He's over-rated and should be sitting back in his comfy chair as a retired ex-coach.

 

[The Punter]

I don't mind having this debate but I think we will have to agree to disagree. Sydney and Geelong are very bad examples in my opinion.

Sydney have hardly missed a finals series in 30 years and seem to rebuild overnight. Is it because they are just so superior to most of the other AFL teams? I don't think so. They have 2 huge advantages that we don't have. Northern Academy, no matter where they finish on the ladder (most years), they have access to top 10 talent. They then not only grab them at a 20% discount but they only have to cobble together junk picks to do it. Look at the farce last year where Gold Coast picked 4 FRDP's through their academy. Thank crikey the AFL have woken up and decided to review this otherwise all 4 Northern clubs would be perennially stuck at the top of the AFL ladder. Home ground advantage - Massive advantage that we don't have. Not only that, we sometimes play home games at the MCG against teams that are based at the MCG which further dilutes our position. We made a huge mistake going to Docklands instead of the MCG but that is another story.

Geelong have hardly missed a finals series in 40 years and seem to rebuild overnight. Is it because they are just so superior to most of the other AFL teams? I don't think so. They have been absolutely blessed with Father son selections and just like Northern Academies they receive a 20% discount and all they need to do is cobble together junk picks to match. Home Ground advantage, blessed again because the Victorian government has spent $200 Million rebuilding their dung heap so now they have a humongous home ground advantage that no other VIc team has.

Have both Sydney and Geelong been good at identifying and recruiting talented players? Yes they have. Have they developed their players well? Yes they have. When you add in the 2 massive advantages they have over us that being Academy, Home Ground advantage and Father sons it's not difficult to see why they have had so much sustained success.

I know you won't agree but that's ok....

I don't think we disagree that much on Geelong and Sydney, but their success has been built on development. Quite simply they could probably turn me into a serviceable contributor on an AFL team. They never draft early, and Geelong haven't had too many F/S selections recently, but obviously Ablett, Scarlett and Hawkins for second round picks is highway robbery. Hawkins in particular was the highest rated youngster coming out of the that draft.

The development piece is replicable. We've been terrible at it - we draft blokes as highly rated kicks and watch them turn into Wayne Thornborrow. It's started to turn, but it's much more sustainable IMO focus on developing the talent you can access rather than slash and burn just to get more raw talent.

I have thoughts about the AFL structure (massively increase the salary cap, get free agency starting earlier in careers, abolish F/S and academies) but those aren't going to happen any time soon if at all. Until then I recommend we develop our kids, create and imbed a winning culture, and develop the next game plan innovation to get ahead of the curve.

 

[gringo2011]

I don't think we disagree that much on Geelong and Sydney, but their success has been built on development. Quite simply they could probably turn me into a serviceable contributor on an AFL team. They never draft early, and Geelong haven't had too many F/S selections recently, but obviously Ablett, Scarlett and Hawkins for second round picks is highway robbery. Hawkins in particular was the highest rated youngster coming out of the that draft.

The development piece is replicable. We've been terrible at it - we draft blokes as highly rated kicks and watch them turn into Wayne Thornborrow. It's started to turn, but it's much more sustainable IMO focus on developing the talent you can access rather than slash and burn just to get more raw talent.

I have thoughts about the AFL structure (massively increase the salary cap, get free agency starting earlier in careers, abolish F/S and academies) but those aren't going to happen any time soon if at all. Until then I recommend we develop our kids, create and imbed a winning culture, and develop the next game plan innovation to get ahead of the curve.

They have innovative talent identification and a system that is easy to slot into. They are still relying on guys like Jeremy Cameron who is one of the most dominant players in AFL though. A good system with a few absolute top end players gives the bottom rungs a chance to develop at their own pace.
We are patching up all over the place due to previous poor development and drafting which makes more of the pressure fall on the youth.