Analysis The Rebuilds Of Hawthorn and Geelong and their Future Prospects

[threesixpio]

Beyond ‘because I said so’ I haven’t seen many.

I haven’t heard of any boxing legends who won the title, defended it a few times then lost it, being more revered than ones who won it, lost it, had a few wins to earn another shot then won it again. In fact the most famous boxer of all was revered for precisely the latter reason.

A boxing legend is not made up of 22 players. It’s like you didn’t read my post.

 

[PhatBoy]

A boxing legend is not made up of 22 players. It’s like you didn’t read my post.

What does it matter. It’s reaching the pinnacle of the sport.
I’m yet to see any evidence of a trophy being bigger or gold played because it’s the second in a row. I don’t know a solitary rugby league fan who rates the eels of the 80s above the Dogs of the 80s because the Eels had a three peat and the Dogs didn’t. They both won 4 titles in a 9 season span.

 

[Mr Meow]

I'm getting the feeling that Hawks & Cats fans don't like each other much! The Matthews/Bruns incident may have been the catayst
but the Grand Final battles were the major cause of enmity. There's no doubt that it's the strongest modern day rivalry. 4 flags each
in the 21st century is admirable and equal top billing flag wise.

I don't know what the age demographic of Big Footy is, but I doubt that there are many septuagenarians on here. However, since
1970 Hawthorn has played in 17 Grand Finals for 12 wins & 5 losses. A win ratio of 70.5%. Geelong has played in 10 Grand Finals for
4 wins & 6 losses. A win ratio of 40%.

Grand Final victories are the measuring stick for success. I'm very happy and proud of my team as I'm sure Geelong fans are of theirs.
The most successful team of the last 50 years by premierships, by some way, is Hawthorn.

Over that time frame Hawthorn trump anyone so it's not a big slight to be behind them.

Since the 21st century both teams fans will feel they've had the edge.

Geelong because the 4 flags were accompanied by an extra grand final appearance, more top 4 appearances/years contending, higher win rate and no time in the bottom 4. A 15 year spread between the flags while essentially always contending is the mark of a strong club over a sustained period.

Hawthorn because they went b2b2b (something that is a lot more obsessed over in AFL than other sports historically) and 2 of their 4 flags involved important knockout wins vs Geelong ('08 grand final, '13 preliminary final). They don't mind dipping down to the bottom for a few years to find their next few superstars and go again.

There's not really a right or wrong answer. Geelong ran into another dynasty team, albeit a worse one, during a cluster of contending years and so the dry spells during Hawthorn's three-peat and Richmond's three-peat with a gap year in between aren't quite the blemish people believe. Eventually they added a few crucial pieces and peaked at a perfect time to capitalise. Hawthorn and Richmond just did it during times they could have a "peaking" side for a few consecutive years, with varying quality of opponents that were mostly interstate teams.

Luck always plays a role but you still need a bloody good team either way. Hawthorn and Geelong are the only two that have really done so this century for extended periods ('07-'18 for Hawthorn, '07-'22/23 for Geelong) and have 3 or more flags that include quite a gap between first and last.

 

[threesixpio]

What does it matter. It’s reaching the pinnacle of the sport.
I’m yet to see any evidence of a trophy being bigger or gold played because it’s the second in a row. I don’t know a solitary rugby league fan who rates the eels of the 80s above the Dogs of the 80s because the Eels had a three peat and the Dogs didn’t. They both won 4 titles in a 9 season span.

Because it’s the same people with each flag. They change over time. Whereas the one boxer stays the same.

So “champion team” is easier to state where less players/more likely to be the same players make up the three flags overall.

 

[Taper]

Because it’s the same people with each flag. They change over time. Whereas the one boxer stays the same.

So “champion team” is easier to state where less players/more likely to be the same players make up the three flags overall.

Selwood's career went from 2007 to 2022 and he played in all four flags so it's the same era aka a champion team.
Hawkins started playing in 2007 so even though he didn't play in the premiership team that year, you can argue today's team is still the same era as the 2007 team.

 

[PhatBoy]

Because it’s the same people with each flag. They change over time. Whereas the one boxer stays the same.

So “champion team” is easier to state where less players/more likely to be the same players make up the three flags overall.

But it’s not. Where do you draw the line? We lost Stephen King after 2007, Matthew Egan never played again, Nathan Ablett retired. Shannon Byrnes didn’t make the cut in 2008. Even if we won in 2008 there was a turnover of 4-5 players between the sides. Same again between 08-09.
If we win that grand final in 08 and still win in 09, it’s still a reasonably high amount of player turnover. We had 13 or 14 players who won all 3, what’s the difference between that and a side who has 17-18 play all 3?
And when you consider the quality of the players who are no longer there, or no longer good enough to get picked - Ablett Jr, Steven King, Mooney, Milburn are all AA players for example, it seems like it’s just as much of an effort to keep bouncing back and winning. I don’t see any reasonable argument that disproves it.

 

[Taper]

Not sure if Hawthorn are making the rebuild caper look hard or if we're making it look easy?

 

[STPer18]

Not sure if Hawthorn are making the rebuild caper look hard or if we're making it look easy?

 

[Biggy_Boy]

Not sure if Hawthorn are making the rebuild caper look hard or if we're making it look easy?

It's a lot harder if you become a bottom club. Our young players are allowed to develop in an environment in which they are competitive and have experience around them to perform, scaffolding their learning and allowing them to be guided step by step to higher levels of performance without all the weight being thrust upon them to carry the side immediately.

We'll see if we can keep that up with impending retirements, but I think that in the current day that's the approach you want to take. It's better to rebuild from the middle of the table than hit the bottom end of the ladder for years and try to claw and scrape back up.

Hawks issue is that several years ago they gave up a lot for mediocre talent to try to extend the window, which left them without much quality young talent coming through and with much of the experience they have being ineffective. Some of the blokes running around for them are baffling.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Some absolute howlers in this thread.

 

[STPer18]

Oh wait this was started in 2021. We've already added another premiership since this fred started.

 

[Taper]

When Hawthorn last made finals, I tied an onion to my belt which was the style of the time.

 

[Catsnlakers]

Hawthorn haven’t even hit rock bottom yet, and atm only the Roos are worse! They went chips in with Mitchell as the “man” & he is proving to be anything but, whereas we will continue to do what we’ve done for basically the entire millennium, filter young players through the team (when earned) whilst competing at the pointy end. There is nothing wrong with making young players do their time in the VFL until they’re ready, it provides a great grounding to compete from game 1. Without even shouting it from the rooftops we have put together a good young nucleus for this year, which comprises more than half our team, as well as being there in 2030. Bruhn, Holmes, Henry x2, Clark, Z.Guthrie, Conway, Neale, Miers, De Koning, Atkins, Close, Stengle, Dempsey just to name a few…

 

[Kobe Gryant]

Oh wait this was started in 2021. We've already added another premiership since this fred started.

....And to think we had Hawks supporters coming onto our board taking victory laps last year off a 16th placed finish.

Very, very strange lot down at Dingley.

 

[Taper]

....And to think we had Hawks supporters coming onto our board taking victory laps last year off a 16th placed finish.

Very, very strange lot down at Dingley.

Hawthorn 2023 - 16th and loving it.
Hawthorn 2024 - better than North and loving it.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Oh wait this was started in 2021. We've already added another premiership since this fred started.

And I would say also added comparable or better youth than Hawks did

 

[Saab NLAW]

Honestly, we only really care about the Hawks. There's a minority of tigers cookers who are full conspiracy theory though and they are entertaining.

Hawks will be back though. Lay the boot in while you can

It's going to take a long time though, their list is in a really bad state. This is the result of arrogance and 10 years of really poor list management, just have a look at the players they've traded in over that time.

 

[HairyO]

It's going to take a long time though, their list is in a really bad state. This is the result of arrogance and 10 years of really poor list management, just have a look at the players they've traded in over that time.

Id definitely choose 1 flag in my lifetime over 12 flags in my lifetime.

Then stink up a thread unrelated to my team.

A drought for us is 8 or 10 years. How bout you ?

 

[CatToTheFuture]

It's going to take a long time though, their list is in a really bad state. This is the result of arrogance and 10 years of really poor list management, just have a look at the players they've traded in over that time.

Not long enough

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Anyway - really rate a number of Hawthorn's youngsters, think they've got a decent core of young players to work with.

Actually like seeing Mitchell get angry at Scrimshaw, though curious to hear what team rules he was breaking by hitting up CHF. If it's because it was Newcombe then I can see why

 

[Saab NLAW]

Id definitely choose 1 flag in my lifetime over 12 flags in my lifetime.

Then stink up a thread unrelated to my team.

A drought for us is 8 or 10 years. How bout you ?

Pretty sure the topic of the thread is discussing Hawthorn's future and it's rebuild. If you can't handle people discussing your club then you need to log off for a couple of weeks and calm the heck down.

You sound like a 12 year old throwing a tantrum, grow up

 

[HairyO]

Pretty sure the topic of the thread is discussing Hawthorn's future and it's rebuild. If you can't handle people discussing your club then you need to log off for a couple of weeks and calm the * down.

You sound like a 12 year old throwing a tantrum, grow up

Or the "10 year" rubbish spouted across multiple threads needs to be called out.

In the last 10 years we 3-peated and finished top 6 a couple of times as well.

5 years and you may have a point. But we didnt tank over and over to fill up on high draft picks so had to take risks.

 

[Saab NLAW]

Or the "10 year" rubbish spouted across multiple threads needs to be called out.

In the last 10 years we 3-peated and finished top 6 a couple of times as well.

5 years and you may have a point. But we didnt tank over and over to fill up on high draft picks so had to take risks.

So then show me all the great players Hawthorn have traded in during that time.

Instead of acting like a petulant child try discussing the topic

 

[Footy Smarts]

Some hawk fans and the media got way ahead of themselves late last year. They're not going as well as some suggested late last year but it's also not all doom and gloom. The question is whether Mitchell can survive another 18 months without being forced off course to see where they are at that point.

 

[VinnieB]

Some hawk fans and the media got way ahead of themselves late last year. They're not going as well as some suggested late last year but it's also not all doom and gloom. The question is whether Mitchell can survive another 18 months without being forced off course to see where they are at that point.

I'm sure we may be able to find Mitchell an assistant role down at the Pies.
But seriously, the Hawks have a very poor list, which has been extremely overrated. The midfield which they call their strength is not good at all. Easy for them to complain about the forward line, however, delivery inside is poor. ANd the backline seems to face an avalanche with little defensive running from the midfielders.

I think the only player in that midfield who has defended is Ward and he is playing VFL. No one seems to tackle unless the player with the ball is standing beside them at a stoppage.

The Cats' 'future prospects' are already streets ahead of the Hawks. They have killed it over the past 3 years with their recruitment and development, and haven't had the top 6 or 7 picks the Hawks enjoyed.