Coach Fages and the coaching group

[McIvor]

So after 5 brilliant years and 7 games after losing a grand final by 4 points you want to sack the coach because of 5 losses?

As has been said many times; Fagan’s ability I think has been masked by talented players opposed to being a great coach. There were obvious signs last year that his performance as a coach and selector were questionable and people for years have been saying his blind loyalty to players will be his undoing.

I haven’t said once that we should move on Fagan now - EOY I have - which I also acknowledge he has early the right to step aside which I hope he does - but surely everyone at the club including himself can see the writing on the wall that he just can’t get this group up other than likely the odd game. The players clearly aren’t buying or have worked hard enough this off season which Fagan himself has said they have. Coupled with odd decisions by refusing to drop players or including a quarter of the list into the leadership group plus his own issues with Hawks to me anyway says he ain’t doing squat with this group - he’s taken it as far as it can go.

 

[martinson]

I think a lot of our issues this year relate to a lack of fitness. Players seem to be trying to take shortcuts and not chasing etc to try and conserve energy which leads to a breakdown in team structure and a lack of confidence in their ability to run out a full game. That’s why we can look good for a quarter or half but then drop away and we get run over in the second half so regularly. I recall during the preseason that the club said they had changed our training regime from a fitness base to skills based as they thought the players had a good base level of fitness after 5 or 6 preseasons behind them. In hindsight this appears to have been a big mistake and will be hard to fix now.

Well we haven't got the uplift in skills either.

So copped it both ways.

 

[KissKiss]

I don’t know how to articulate everything that I am thinking.

For a couple of seasons now I have questioned our playing style and fitness levels. But I believe we don’t currently have the players to change/adapt our style of play.

We don’t have the players to make wholesale changes, and if we were to try and do so, Fagan likely loses a fair chunk of the best 22.

At the same time, there does need to be a message sent to the best 22, that there are minimum standards for playing in the senior team.

I’ve mentioned for a couple of years that we should have a rotation system in place, to give some players a rest during the season, and get some games in to some of the younger players.


I really question our system, and the players ability to respond to adversity on the field, and this extends to the coaching group, and putting in place game plans that the players know to switch to in certain situations.


Geelong is the standard for much of what I have mentioned.

They have strong leaders on the ground, know when to switch playing styles, and game plan for multiple in game situations and teams.


We, however appear to stick to one game plan and back it in almost regardless of the outcome.

And when it doesn’t hold up, our players just give up and play out the game, going through the motions.

Last nights third and fourth quarters were a perfect example of all this.

100% this. We have had a stagnant approach to playing the "best 22" in exactly the same way for several seasons now. We are really really resistant to any modern approach on using the list and sub to get the most across the full year. Which is weird as we have such a great medical system which is based on not overstressing players (perhaps leading to us being the least fit team out there).

I also look at Geelong and how many guys they rotate through the midfield. They fully embrace having so many guys rotate through at like 60% mid time and hence just look fresh the whole time. We just stick to the ruck, Neale, Dunkley and McCluggage as close to 90% of the time and then barely try anything else.

Its been said many times if you arent evolving and moving forward, you are going backwards. And that is so evident right now. We are still trying to play the same game plan from multiple years ago. Its not adapted with the times and it hasnt adapted as our playing list has changed. We still seem to have been trying to bomb the ball to contested marks down the line since we had McStay and Oscar saving us there - but since McStay left we tried to recruit non-contested markers like Gunston (or play Gardiner) and play the same way

 

[martinson]

100% this. We have had a stagnant approach to playing the "best 22" in exactly the same way for several seasons now. We are really really resistant to any modern approach on using the list and sub to get the most across the full year. Which is weird as we have such a great medical system which is based on not overstressing players (perhaps leading to us being the least fit team out there).

I also look at Geelong and how many guys they rotate through the midfield. They fully embrace having so many guys rotate through at like 60% mid time and hence just look fresh the whole time. We just stick to the ruck, Neale, Dunkley and McCluggage as close to 90% of the time and then barely try anything else.

Its been said many times if you arent evolving and moving forward, you are going backwards. And that is so evident right now. We are still trying to play the same game plan from multiple years ago. Its not adapted with the times and it hasnt adapted as our playing list has changed. We still seem to have been trying to bomb the ball to contested marks down the line since we had McStay and Oscar saving us there - but since McStay left we tried to recruit non-contested markers like Gunston (or play Gardiner) and play the same way

That's one thing that really worried me all along ,but particularly this year. Why bring in Gunston and once he was done double down by putting Dizz there. It's completely flawed and why we persisted with both for so long is really puzzling.

 

[notliondown]

I think Fages biggest weaknesses are in some ways his greatest strengths.

His faith in his players to overcome form slumps, to get the best out of themselves, and to a degree self coach on the field means he's never been a coach that chops and changes or becomes too reactive. It creates a stability and an environment where organic growth has meant development.

The trouble we have now is that that same model no longer really fits. Our organic growth has slowed or to some degree has stopped.

We have a huge group of our main players

• McLuggage
• Berry
• Rayner
• Bailey
• Starc
• Payne
• Answerth
• Robertson
• Coleman
• Wilmot
• Lohmann
• Fletcher
• Ashcroft

who have never experienced anything other than growth or improvement year on year since they were drafted. Fages has been their only AFL coach and some form of success has almost always been a given since 2019.

This year, will be the first year where those players are forced to look at themselves. To have doubts. To start to question things. This will be a whole new dynamic for the entire club to deal with - and it will undoubtably show some cracks.

To suddenly have to deal with adversity when you really haven't before will show who's up for the fight and who isn't. I have a feeling there are going to be somethings and some people reacting in a way we won't like very much.

My concern with how we have gotten to here is that this whole process means that the stability we were - and are - all so grateful to have had for 7 years now also means we have lost imagination in my opinion.

I think we hugely underutilise the VFL as a way of trialling players in new positions to cover weaknesses in the main team or to try new styles. We tend to look to the draft or trade period instead of being creative from within our own ranks. Our desire to let a player use his weapon means we tend to only see them one way.

Blind faith and repeating things over and over and expecting the same result can only go on for so long.

Perhaps a season like this one gives us the opportunity to step away from what we know.

Try Prior as a mid. Promote Morris early. Give Smith a crack in the forward line. It's getting to be time to shuffle magnets.

But just as importantly it's time to demand more from the consistently inconsistent players in the AFL team. Its time Rayner, Bailey, McCarthy, Cameron, Hipwood and Ah Chee find a way to provide solid consistent effort. It's not too much to ask of highly paid players that they contribute and be told to do so.

The next couple of months will be an interesting exercise in how we handle our current reality.

 

[SizeMatters]

Then I’m not sure what the point you’re making is. I presume in a thread on coaching, quote replying a post I made about Fagan your reference to systemic weaknesses papered over by having a good list and a home ground is a reference to coaching. Or I have misunderstood?

I think you’re over estimating my intentions with my post. I’ve simple noted that whilst fagan is a good coach he has limitations. Every expert in any field ever has limitations. No one is so profound and perfect at what they do that they aren’t without faults.

Fagan has built this team with some very good trading and giving time to youth to develop and I’m not discrediting that at all. But over the past few seasons the Lions have had some of the most experienced teams on the park and being fortunate enough to have a clear home ground advantage it’s given a possible false sense of positive reinforcement. Coupled with Fagans, as some posters have put it, stubbornness it’s probably forced us to a set limitation. Fagan has probably thought to himself to not change a winning formula and that’s fine but AFL footy moves fast. You either adapt or get left behind.

Playing a steady and consistent set of 26 or so players in set clearly defined roles and with a steady game plan that has barely adapted with time is good in a lot of ways but detrimental in other ways as well. I feel this has played a role in what has culminated in a rather pathetic and weak season to date. I still cannot fathom that two experienced players in rich and Gunston had to beg Fagan to be dropped for the greater good of the team. That’s just not right at all especially given the form of those players being well below expectations. I can list many examples of questionable decisions made by Fagan but that’s already been covered in this thread and across the board.

Fagan is a good coach. Like how Lyons is a good coach based on performances. It was a good time to be a Lions supporter. But we will not improve any further with fagan coaching. That’s IMO. So as club will be doing a great injustice to members if they aren’t reviewing Fagan before any form on contract talk is initiated.

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

That's one thing that really worried me all along ,but particularly this year. Why bring in Gunston and once he was done double down by putting Dizz there. It's completely flawed and why we persisted with both for so long is really puzzling.

Maybe some of our players are thinking the same thing, questioning our direction.
The team stopped running, got to ask why.
It looked like , well what for, it's not working.

 

[Gadzorks]

We need fagan. We need him in father fagan mode finding ways to help the players through this slump.

That's not going to happen by abusing them, giving them ultimatums, threatening them.

His tenure in taking us from crayons to perfume was all about getting players to buy in and he did it with kindness and understanding.

The other coaches can handle specifics, but fagan is the mind master.

He needs to find ways to help them love the game and have fun. To be switched on and making good decisions.

Swapping coaches doesn't fix burnout. Might get a bump, but sustained performance LIKE THE LAST FIVE YEARS needs team cohesiveness.

And fagan has been the master of that.

 

[Bucking Beads]

Whilst there is some concerns tactical and game style that I have it’s pretty overwhelming that our biggest problem is that we just stop running when we get challenged. We don’t cope with being hunted.

 

[Gadzorks]

very difficult decision coming up. Sack the man that turned our culture around, or stick with him when there are clear tactical limitations?

Personally, I was concerned when there wasn’t any change in assistants to support Fagan. Dew would have been good. Was regarded for his tactical nous as an assistant at the Swans - I would have started with him.

This year is clearly going to be an uphill battle with injuries to key personnel and a draw that is arguably the most difficult going. I’d do a Geelong. Lose a few games, miss the 8, get guys into surgery early and get a soft draw to set us up for next year..

I would love Dew as a game day tactical coach.

He is brilliant at footy. Not so great at people, but meh we have that covered

 

[Gadzorks]

And it served him well up until this year

I’d give Fages time to adjust given that the Melbourne win is clearly now a false dawn instead of us recapturing our form

Melbourne was right after a lot of the off season reporting - the players made a statement, was massive energy investment and now they are flat again.

 

[Elixuh]

I think you’re over estimating my intentions with my post. I’ve simple noted that whilst fagan is a good coach he has limitations. Every expert in any field ever has limitations. No one is so profound and perfect at what they do that they aren’t without faults.

Fagan has built this team with some very good trading and giving time to youth to develop and I’m not discrediting that at all. But over the past few seasons the Lions have had some of the most experienced teams on the park and being fortunate enough to have a clear home ground advantage it’s given a possible false sense of positive reinforcement. Coupled with Fagans, as some posters have put it, stubbornness it’s probably forced us to a set limitation. Fagan has probably thought to himself to not change a winning formula and that’s fine but AFL footy moves fast. You either adapt or get left behind.

Playing a steady and consistent set of 26 or so players in set clearly defined roles and with a steady game plan that has barely adapted with time is good in a lot of ways but detrimental in other ways as well. I feel this has played a role in what has culminated in a rather pathetic and weak season to date. I still cannot fathom that two experienced players in rich and Gunston had to beg Fagan to be dropped for the greater good of the team. That’s just not right at all especially given the form of those players being well below expectations. I can list many examples of questionable decisions made by Fagan but that’s already been covered in this thread and across the board.

Fagan is a good coach. Like how Lyons is a good coach based on performances. It was a good time to be a Lions supporter. But we will not improve any further with fagan coaching. That’s IMO. So as club will be doing a great injustice to members if they aren’t reviewing Fagan before any form on contract talk is initiated.

I agree fagan has his limitations

 

[HereIGoAgain]

We need fagan. We need him in father fagan mode finding ways to help the players through this slump.

That's not going to happen by abusing them, giving them ultimatums, threatening them.

His tenure in taking us from crayons to perfume was all about getting players to buy in and he did it with kindness and understanding.

The other coaches can handle specifics, but fagan is the mind master.

He needs to find ways to help them love the game and have fun. To be switched on and making good decisions.

Swapping coaches doesn't fix burnout. Might get a bump, but sustained performance LIKE THE LAST FIVE YEARS needs team cohesiveness.

And fagan has been the master of that.

At least some of that burnout can be traced to Fagan's inability to rotate his players throughout a season including his unusual sub options. The refusal to give young reserves players a fair go when they are called up has stifled their development.

The players MAY love him but they are not playing for him.

 

[notliondown]

We need fagan. We need him in father fagan mode finding ways to help the players through this slump.

That's not going to happen by abusing them, giving them ultimatums, threatening them.

His tenure in taking us from crayons to perfume was all about getting players to buy in and he did it with kindness and understanding.

The other coaches can handle specifics, but fagan is the mind master.

He needs to find ways to help them love the game and have fun. To be switched on and making good decisions.

Swapping coaches doesn't fix burnout. Might get a bump, but sustained performance LIKE THE LAST FIVE YEARS needs team cohesiveness.

And fagan has been the master of that.

I agree with all of that.

But... if the relationships Fages has built are built on respect then asking more from the players should be something that can be done without hurt feelings - or long lasting ones at least.

We have had deficiences for years in various aspects of our game. But raw talent has generally hidden them or let us skate by.

Past performance is no indication of future performance as they say. And that's on players and coaches.

He's the right man to get us out of this - his good far out weighs the bad... as long as the review he has is also of himself.

 

[Sanchez365]

The weakest part of our list for years has been our midfield depth. We have relied on Neale to play brownlow level football to carry our entire midfield structure for years, and the only season we actually looked good in there was when Lyons + Zorko were playing career best football, all at the same time. It's an area of the ground I identified last year as us needing to "change the guard" and highlighted McCluggage, Berry, Rayner + Bailey as the guys on our list that needed to go to another level to make that happen. McCluggage was still good but didn't go to dominate, Bailey was trialed but stagnated, Rayner didn't get a look in and Berry was kept outside.

This year it seems Neale has slowed, Dunkley has also slowed, Ashcroft is missing and now our shallow depth is getting seriously shown up.

It seems Fages and the coaches have a very offensive philosophy, from the outside looking in it seems the message is "if we play our way no team can beat us, so forgot about the opposition and just do what makes us great". When that clicks, you get a Melbourne type season where your Gawn / Oliver / Petracca / Viney / Bradshaw midfield carries your team week to week and you look a million dollars. However when the coaches cocaine habit comes out and the wheels fall off, they fall off hard.

Our system has been effectively built on our mids breaking even and our extremely talent forward half of the ground dominating team defenses and scoring heavily. The philosophy was just that the ball has to be down there and we had so many playmakers in the forward 50 that we could make a goal out of nothing consistently. Defending the ground when the ball is camped in your forward 50 is also much easier, but the flaws that we have had all along are getting exposed more.

The only game we have won clearances and lost so far this year was against the Pies. In all other losses our midfield has been beaten or nullified. This means we are defending from the halfback or middle of the ground, the space is wider, and we have traditionally always been a team with poor team defense. Most teams these days are build around the Clarkson mantra of team structure first, team defense, the Clarkson cluster etc. Geelong, Melbourne, Collingwood, Richmond, basically every premiership team has had a focus on defensive structure first, and the points will come later. Fages does not share this mentality.

My problem with Fagan is less about his coaching style, he's going offensive and trying to change the needle against the wave of defensive teams. He's staunchly stuck to his playing group that he trusts (even though I haven't agreed with a lot of that). The problem for me is that the players have not developed into and improved this system. We haven't brought anyone up through this system and made them look better then their talent suggests they are. Our only improvement has been through excellent recruiting and trading. Probably the only player on our list who's gone from a bit average to genuine star is Coleman. He hasn't, even for all his stable team lineups been able to develop a team that knows 100% week in week out what to do. There is no plug and play nature of bringing in VFL guys to replace cogs in the system. It is these players only or bust.

It is a massive flaw in our system that we rely so heavily on specific players to deliver. The fact we have no one in the reserves training to replace a Coleman within our team structure is an absolute failure of the coaching staff. Every good production knows the important cogs in the performance, and so those stars have understudies. We have none of that. This i believe is fundamentally a belief of our head coach and that is my worry about our team. What's even more worrying is that there isn't going to be any change to what we do, how we play or anything. It's just going to be a wait and see if our players can recapture form.

As a supporter, that's pretty boring to watch when you keep losing.

 

[mpal6]

we were able to defend against this style fairly well last season. beat collingwood comfortably twice, beat gws and sydney quite easily. our team defence was so much improved last year but yesterday saw a reversion to bad habits that should have been beaten out of the team ages ago. so many players just jogging in no mans land as gws players ran past for chains of handballs in the second half

Styles evolve and get perfected over time. Similarly our methods will get picked apart and get countered too. Unfortunately we didn't evolve or grow and sort of came back with the same plan while competition kept moving forward. The fact that we are off by 10% in goal kicking and pressure levels mean everyone thinks they can beat us is a clear indicator.

The reality is Carlton and GWS closely mirrored our contested style. But it did not stop them from searching and introducing more pace to their system. Carlton added Hollands to the wing and continues to work on run n gun from defense. McKay found his radar this year so things look even better than 2023.

Same with GWS, had big bodied contested midfield but has continued to add Bedford, release whitfield, introduced Harvey Thomas and now Darcy Jones. They've gone for extreme pace to complement the senior core, while its not perfect yet its getting them wins against mid-tier teams like us.

If we want to get back in contention, we need to evolve our style more. It has been reliant on individual brilliance than a system at present. The fact that we lost coleman and became rudderless coming out of defense is a stark reminder on how much this team is leaning on some individuals to save the day. We got away with this for nearly 5 years coz our forward line was super consistent, now forwards are struggling as midfield supply is poor and everything looks like a problem Unfortunately.

 

[M Malice]

We need fagan. We need him in father fagan mode finding ways to help the players through this slump.

That's not going to happen by abusing them, giving them ultimatums, threatening them.

His tenure in taking us from crayons to perfume was all about getting players to buy in and he did it with kindness and understanding.

The other coaches can handle specifics, but fagan is the mind master.

He needs to find ways to help them love the game and have fun. To be switched on and making good decisions.

Swapping coaches doesn't fix burnout. Might get a bump, but sustained performance LIKE THE LAST FIVE YEARS needs team cohesiveness.

And fagan has been the master of that.

Well said Lulu.

 

[On the quiet]

View attachment 1971032
I tipped this. ALL THE MULLIGANS ARE COMING HOME TO ROOST! MORE MULLIGANS NEXT WEEK. MULLIGANS FOR HIPWOOD, RAYNER, PAYNE, GARDINER!

apparently you were out last night (Thursday night) and didn't watch the game as you were apparently at a concert so how can you post this at midnight (12.03am) when you have not seen the game. Credibility

 

[3KZ is Football]

apparently you were out last night (Thursday night) and didn't watch the game as you were apparently at a concert so how can you post this at midnight (12.03am) when you have not seen the game. Credibility

I have none.

 

[Gadzorks]

Well said Lulu.

Someone old enough to get the reference!! Gotta love Bigfooty.

 

[pod17]

I would love Dew as a game day tactical coach.

He is brilliant at footy. Not so great at people, but meh we have that covered

Yep, my thoughts too. Might be too late to bring him in now the season is underway - though the Australian cricket team didn't think so when he turned up during the Ashes!

 

[On the quiet]

The get rid of Fagan calls are crazy. Getting rid of a guy with a proven track record for some random, likely current senior assistant who hasn’t coached an AFL team before. Have you seen how many of them have spudded it up and failed?

We have 5 years of great footy and entertainment and the minute we drop form people s**t the bed on here.

Agree mostly. I might have said early to mid last year maybe look at changing some of the assistant coaches as a lot of the strong Melb clubs have assistants that have been head coaches and/or former high profile players. We made the GF last year which was a success so that argument regarding reviewing the assistants ceased.

Unless the wheels completely fall off and we end up bottom 4, Fages stays for 2025, but maybe we look at one or two more credentialled assistants to help Fages for next year. If there is no improvement in 2025, then probably time for Fages to finish. He deserves a chance in 2025, after what he and Swan etc etc have done over the past 7 to 8 years.

 

[3KZ is Football]

apparently you were out last night (Thursday night) and didn't watch the game as you were apparently at a concert so how can you post this at midnight (12.03am) when you have not seen the game. Credibility

Stats on the way home from Nick Cave. Recorded it on Fox - Watched on Fast Forward, Watched the 'highlights package'. Watched Presser. I saw much less than those WITH CREDIBILITY and believe I am well and truly in front.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Agree mostly. I might have said early to mid last year maybe look at changing some of the assistant coaches as a lot of the strong Melb clubs have assistants that have been head coaches and/or former high profile players. We made the GF last year which was a success so that argument regarding reviewing the assistants ceased.

Unless the wheels completely fall off and we end up bottom 4, Fages stays for 2025, but maybe we look at one or two more credentialled assistants to help Fages for next year. If there is no improvement in 2025, then probably time for Fages to finish. He deserves a chance in 2025, after what he and Swan etc etc have done over the past 7 to 8 years.

How is Payne' long term contract looking? SIGNED TO THE END OF THE 2029 SEASON! Not looking too bright.
What about Lester? Surely he has earned another year.

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

Someone old enough to get the reference!! Gotta love Bigfooty.

One of my faves. Got the DVD , just don't have a player anymore , lol.
I still got a crush on one of those girls, Miss Pamela ,the one he dances with at the end , those twinkling eyes.
Great one Gads.
Awsome song as well.
Always a tear for miss Pamela and Lulu.