Review Round 21, 2024 - St. Kilda vs. Brisbane Lions

[Nathan Barley]

Another case where we have a player thriving in a specialist role and then people want to cram them onball where there is already a glut of players who cant get a look in there. Not every player needs or should play on ball. The team is way better off with players doing well in other roles

People?

1 person

 

[irel]

People?

1 person

So, does that mean that DERRINALPHIL can now claim to "Being shouted Down?"

 

[Nathan Barley]

So, does that mean that DERRINALPHIL can now claim to being "Being shouted Down?"

If a person turns into "people" then yes

 

[KissKiss]

People?

1 person

Nah it happens all the time. Fletcher to the middle. Wilmot to the middle. Starc to the middle and so on. Basically every time a young player starts to come on in a role, people start talking about moving them onball. I get you need to start some guys in other roles before they build up to full time mid jobs. But also the team only carries so many guys in that role, when kid thrives somewhere we dont need to move him straight away

 

[Nathan Barley]

Nah it happens all the time. Fletcher to the middle. Wilmot to the middle. Starc to the middle and so on. Basically every time a young player starts to come on in a role, people start talking about moving them onball. I get you need to start some guys in other roles before they build up to full time mid jobs. But also the team only carries so many guys in that role, when kid thrives somewhere we dont need to move him straight away

Well Fletcher and Starce started as on ballers

Wilmott is in a position where we have options and has already been shifted around

Might be worth looking at the individual arguments rather than the people are wrong go to

For clarity I thought the Kai into the middle suggestion wasn't worth any further thought let alone a post. I just get frustrated with someone making a silly post and then the next few pages being the same post about why it was wrong

 

[McIvor]

Another case where we have a player thriving in a specialist role and then people want to cram them onball where there is already a glut of players who cant get a look in there. Not every player needs or should play on ball. The team is way better off with players doing well in other roles

What I like about Kai is that he already naturally pushes so far up the ground as a high half forward and help out in defence and the like that I agree, he doesn't really need to be played as a pure "mid" anyway given his body of work all around the ground anyway.

 

[Sproj]

But we can all agree Charlie should be made main ruckman right?

 

[M Malice]

What I like about Kai is that he already naturally pushes so far up the ground as a high half forward and help out in defence and the like that I agree, he doesn't really need to be played as a pure "mid" anyway given his body of work all around the ground anyway.

Kai must have elite endurance, just never stops running, might have trained with Harry Sharp over the off season.

He also seems to still perform when under extreme fatigue.

 

[McIvor]

Kai must have elite endurance, just never stops running, might have trained with Harry Sharp over the off season.

He also seems to still perform when under extreme fatigue.

What is exciting is that Logan Morris is very tight with Kai and you'd assume Harry Sharp if socials are much to go by so if Logan starts doing all the work that Kai / Harry do this off season, Logan should get himself extremely fit by virtue of following those boys around.

 

[M Malice]

What is exciting is that Logan Morris is very tight with Kai and you'd assume Harry Sharp if socials are much to go by so if Logan starts doing all the work that Kai / Harry do this off season, Logan should get himself extremely fit by virtue of following those boys around.

Harry Sharp might be worth keeping on our list long term if only just as the off season training pacesetter.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Also exciting, well probably much less exciting, is that our last quarters are no longer our worst quarter across the season. They've now snuck past our 3rd quarters, 105.8% vs 106.3%.

 

[McIvor]

Also exciting, well probably much less exciting, is that our last quarters are no longer our worst quarter across the season. They've now snuck past our 3rd quarters, 105.8% vs 106.3%.

Arguably though depending on whether its quarters 'won'

2024
Lions by 231	W17-L3-D0-T20
Lions by 102	W12-L8-D0-T20
Lions by 22	W11-L9-D0-T20
Lions by 37	W10-L8-D2-T20
Lions by 297	W50-L28-D2-T80

2024
Quarter	Goals Lions	Goals Opp	Difference
Q1	83	47	36
Q2	69	55	14
Q3	56	55	1
Q4	66	63	3
TOTAL	274	220	54

 

[Dalions]

Also exciting, well probably much less exciting, is that our last quarters are no longer our worst quarter across the season. They've now snuck past our 3rd quarters, 105.8% vs 106.3%.

I feel that if you do this over the last 6-8 weeks like you do with our defence then these numbers would be much better.

 

[Grasshopper17]

I feel that if you do this over the last 6-8 weeks like you do with our defence then these numbers would be much better.

Last 6 weeks our last quarters are 150.5%, good for #2 in the comp behind Port Adelaide (194.3%). Our 1st quarters are still our best at 190.1%.

Last 8 weeks our last quarters are 123.5%, good for #7 in the comp. Our 1st quarters are still our best at 204.4%.

 

[Section 5]

Last 6 weeks our last quarters are 150.5%, good for #2 in the comp behind Port Adelaide (194.3%). Our 1st quarters are still our best at 190.1%.

Last 8 weeks our last quarters are 123.5%, good for #7 in the comp. Our 1st quarters are still our best at 204.4%.

Recent form is a better guide going into finals.
We just need to keep it up and most importantly win 2 or preferably 3 of the remaining 3 games.

 

[Grasshopper17]

I know people are saying Will is having a better game, but I'm not sure I see it? It seems to me like most of the time he's in clearance mode and isn't looking up before he kicks.

For the record, I think he's playing fine in general, but what's the improvement that people are seeing?

Saw this in the game thread... just felt to me like on Sunday the game finally started to slow down for him, and as a result it looked like he was able to be more creative with his disposal than a lot of the rushed stuff we'd seen from him in his first few games back.

Hopefully he's back to seeing the Matrix again in time for finals.

 

[Grasshopper17]

ahahahahaah


after all that faffing we get a poster

Also from the game thread, I remember this passage of play from the last quarter. Without having seen a replay my immediate thoughts watching at the time (from behind the goals at the other end) was that every single player involved in that passage of play made exactly the right decision based on what was in front of them at the time, and executed their skill well. Apart from Joe hitting the post!

It reminded me of soccer a bit, where you can set the play up really well but then the keeper makes a great save or your shot goes just high or wide. Sometimes you have to just say "unlucky, but that was a really good build up". For me the decision making involved in that passage of play was spot on, and unselfish, which is what we want to see.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Contested possession Lions: +43
Clearance Lions: +21

It was really interesting to see that despite the mauling we gave them in contested possession, we still lost uncontested possession by 13. This is more like how our games looked a couple of years ago, where we'd dominate around the ball but then get beaten on the spread. This year, whenever we've won contested ball we've usually won uncontested by even more.

So just a bit of an anomaly compared to the rest of the season. Maybe a lot of this was caused by St Kilda's insistence to chip the ball around at times for not a whole lot of forward momentum. Our mid-ground team defence was excellent in restricting this for most of the game.

 

[Grasshopper17]

We're playing with an intensity across 4 quarters that I haven't really seen as consistently during the Fagan years. With guys like Bailey and Rayner who've promised so much starting to get to the level we need them to be at.

This is how it looks when you focus on the process rather than the scoreboard. Like, you ignore the state of the game and you ask "how does this passage of play look compared to the standards we have set for ourselves?" This internal validation (or invalidation, if warranted) compared to external validation (i.e. the scoreboard) is a real sign of growth in the team, provided it's maintained.

Funnily enough this is one way a very good team is similar to a very poor team. You literally set aside the scoreboard and focus more on "are we being true to ourselves?"

 

[Dalions]

So just a bit of an anomaly compared to the rest of the season. Maybe a lot of this was caused by St Kilda's insistence to chip the ball around at times for not a whole lot of forward momentum. Our mid-ground team defence was excellent in restricting this for most of the game.

Definitely put it down to this.
We gave them those easy kicks in their back half but as soon as they attempted to move the ball forward our pressure turned the ball over so the uncontested stat doesn’t surprise me at all.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Noticed a fair few times tonight Dougal Howard would push up the ground for the press but Joey would stay back 20-30 metres behind him closer to our forward line. Dont think during the night neither of the decisions had much impact during play but it was just an interesting tactic that he didnt follow Howard down the whole way.

Yes I noticed this too. This is that "lengthening" which I've discussed a couple of times here during the season. Deliberately playing goal side of your opponent is a risk if your team mates further afield are forced to dispose under pressure. If you're able to withstand that pressure however, it forces your opponent (i.e. their deepest defender) to be more accountable and play closer to goal (which they don't want to do). This has a domino effect on the rest of the defence, who set up their positioning based on this deepest defender as an "anchor" point. They are forced to set up deeper as a result, giving our midfield and half forwards more room to work with.

The alternative is that an aggressive defence will say "stuff you Joe, I'm going to set up here, 30m in front of you and back our pressure". That will be great if it comes off, but if it doesn't, we're getting a goal out the back. High risk, high reward. Joe's still taking a risk in that his opponent can get an easy uncontested mark and springboard an attack via the open side of the field. But they still have to get past 17 of us, one way or another. Meanwhile the defender risks giving away a near certain goal if he gets it wrong. Choose your poison.

 

[Grasshopper17]

Think about all the things we wanted from this team after losing to the Hawks.

Rayner to step up.
Mccluggage to start being able to kick goals
Berry to become solid and tougher
Willmot to develop further.
Daniher to go another level.
Have a legitimate third tall forward option (morris)
Bailey to get into form
The players that are not your stars to play a role and play well (Ah Chee, Oscar, Starcevich)
What we wanted out of season 2024 and now getting it the last 5-7 weeks.

To me the most graphic and tangible shift since the Hawthorn game has been we've been sticking our tackles. Outside the Adelaide game, the 2nd quarter against Melbourne and the last quarter against West Coast, we've been largely excellent in this regard. Which I'm really surprised to be saying!

 

[Whatamark]

as an aside - note that Starc gotta a fair bit of love this week in the poll for his game (my vote as well). Was really impressed with not just his defence against Higgins but his bullet like ball use.

Looks like he is getting really back into form. This seems to be the same for a number of our players. Strangely winning & confidence / head space seem to make a real difference.

 

[ZoBlitz]

It was really interesting to see that despite the mauling we gave them in contested possession, we still lost uncontested possession by 13. This is more like how our games looked a couple of years ago, where we'd dominate around the ball but then get beaten on the spread. This year, whenever we've won contested ball we've usually won uncontested by even more.

So just a bit of an anomaly compared to the rest of the season. Maybe a lot of this was caused by St Kilda's insistence to chip the ball around at times for not a whole lot of forward momentum. Our mid-ground team defence was excellent in restricting this for most of the game.

It was the Saints terribly slow ball movement where they looked sideways at very opportunity, which was down to our excellent defensive setup and Ross' coaching. Combine that with our quick efficient movement, that's why we lost that stat. Uncontested possession differentials are often more of an indication of play style than anything else, I feel.

 

[Tom14]

It was really interesting to see that despite the mauling we gave them in contested possession, we still lost uncontested possession by 13. This is more like how our games looked a couple of years ago, where we'd dominate around the ball but then get beaten on the spread. This year, whenever we've won contested ball we've usually won uncontested by even more.

So just a bit of an anomaly compared to the rest of the season. Maybe a lot of this was caused by St Kilda's insistence to chip the ball around at times for not a whole lot of forward momentum. Our mid-ground team defence was excellent in restricting this for most of the game.

I really don’t think we got beaten on the spread.

St kilda tried to bore us to death with uncontested marks that went nowhere, and when it turned over we were so direct and efficient and it turned into a score.