Review Cats spay Demons by 39 points.

[Pure_Ownage]

what would that look like to get, say, Butters?

2 top 10 picks or thereabouts.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

It's completely OK to be critical of the form and output of Neale, Henry, Stengle and even Cameron. But suggesting that they should be dropped is pretty intense - Whiltshire is the only forward in the two's putting any pressure on and he's a small. Neale has lots of upside and should be persisted with - he is literally the only tall key forward we have.

When Henry, Blicavs and Kolo are all fit - perhaps moving SDK forward and using his as our back up ruck to Blics/Conway/Stanley could be the move. COS has also played forward but I think right now you keep letting him build his confidence in defence which he is doing well.

Martin & Whiltshire are the two that can put pressure on Henry if his output doesn't improve. What we do know right now, is that our forward line outside of danger is down in output. I expect the midfield group are talking about getting more quality heading inside 50, and there is no doubt the forwardline coaches have plenty on their agenda to work on.

I never said any of that.

I merely think the last decade of discussions on tall forwards, stretching back to Vardy and Walker all the way up to Neale has seen the same desire to shut down conversation by invoking the 'Some wanted Hawkins delisted' clause as a 'it's too early so shut up about it' catch all.

Neale isn't keeping anyone out of the team, either last year or this one. But it is still true that he was/is having games pumped into him regardless of what fluctuations in form are present, and the last fortnight was absolutely non-competitive. Not up to standard and frankly unacceptable output.

The same applies to Henry. His 80 goals in two seasons is why he gets games. His knack of doing nothing for 98% of matches is why he is rightly criticised.

I am just sick of the 'Hawkins delist' shut down tactic.
Neale and Henry for mine are absolutely warranting of strong criticism at this moment in time.

 

[Tony Barber]

2 top 10 picks or thereabouts.

I think it would be pick 15 and pick 35 ish.
He can just walk next year.

 

[PeasFC]

2 top 10 picks or thereabouts.

Unless we have a poor year this year, it's hard to see how we build that kind of capital. Hawthorn for example have carlton's first and second picks next year which is a lot better than what we will have. They just come about so rarely these top end mids in this age bracket - Rowell, Butters, Reid (i expect LDU to stay).

 

[iameviljez]

I think it would be pick 15 and pick 35 ish.
He can just walk next year.

Port wouldn't do that, the compo pick would be p10-ish for Butters.

 

[Strange Cat]

I never said any of that.

I merely think the last decade of discussions on tall forwards, stretching back to Vardy and Walker all the way up to Neale has seen the same desire to shut down conversation by invoking the 'Some wanted Hawkins delisted' clause as a 'it's too early so shut up about it' catch all.

Neale isn't keeping anyone out of the team, either last year or this one. But it is still true that he was/is having games pumped into him regardless of what fluctuations in form are present, and the last fortnight was absolutely non-competitive. Not up to standard and frankly unacceptable output.

The same applies to Henry. His 80 goals in two seasons is why he gets games. His knack of doing nothing for 98% of matches is why he is rightly criticised.

I am just sick of the 'Hawkins delist' shut down tactic.
Neale and Henry for mine are absolutely warranting of strong criticism at this moment in time.

Criticism..yes

Strong criticism….no

Need to view the content around their “poor form” imo.

 

[Baudolino]

Across 4 games this season, Neale has 17 score involvements which is equal 8th at the club and level with Holmes, Miers & O'Connor - I'm a lil surprised Miers is "only" at 17 when he's seen as one of those players who is at his best in those attacking passages

Not sure what his heat map would be like compared to last season but to my eye Miers seems to be playing a little higher up the ground this year. He's getting a lot of touches 100m from goal.

 

[iameviljez]

I merely think the last decade of discussions on tall forwards, stretching back to Vardy and Walker all the way up to Neale has seen the same desire to shut down conversation by invoking the 'Some wanted Hawkins delisted' clause as a 'it's too early so shut up about it' catch all.

Actually, this came from a discussion which involved a number of young key forwards who were gifted ~50 to 70 games on potential rather than output. That list included Ratugolea, Mensch, Playfair and Hawkins - it's just that because Hawkins stands out on that list, he became the contentious talking point.

The main point was just that you have to "carry" tall forwards, particularly ones who aren't star juniors, for a bit longer than you do other players.

 

[Tony Barber]

Port wouldn't do that, the compo pick would be p10-ish for Butters.

Ok, it was suggested that it would be two top 10 picks.
And your theory is nowhere near that either.

In fact my suggestion is pretty close to yours. And they get the picks (with a new coach) a year earlier.

 

[PeasFC]

I never said any of that.

I merely think the last decade of discussions on tall forwards, stretching back to Vardy and Walker all the way up to Neale has seen the same desire to shut down conversation by invoking the 'Some wanted Hawkins delisted' clause as a 'it's too early so shut up about it' catch all.

Neale isn't keeping anyone out of the team, either last year or this one. But it is still true that he was/is having games pumped into him regardless of what fluctuations in form are present, and the last fortnight was absolutely non-competitive. Not up to standard and frankly unacceptable output.

The same applies to Henry. His 80 goals in two seasons is why he gets games. His knack of doing nothing for 98% of matches is why he is rightly criticised.

I am just sick of the 'Hawkins delist' shut down tactic.
Neale and Henry for mine are absolutely warranting of strong criticism at this moment in time.

You have said on multiple occasions that their form is unacceptable. They are certainly not performing as we would like but the reality is that they absolutely should be selected this week and the next. Just think they are whipping boys playing in roles that at the moment are difficult to provide consistency. Absolutely agree that comparing him to hawkins' early career form is getting a bit tired but I think we could be a little more patient with a kid taken at 33 that has 24 games to his name. Whilst you didn't specifically say you want him dropped, saying it is unacceptable is a little overs IMO.

 

[PeasFC]

Criticism..yes

Strong criticism….no

Need to view the content around their “poor form” imo.

Agree with this

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Criticism..yes

Strong criticism….no

Need to view the content around their “poor form” imo.

Semantics.

7 in 4 for Cameron
4 in 4 for Neale and Henry.

That's Melbourne and Carlton tall forwards output and both sets of clubs are being critically analysed by media and fans alike for output up forward.

Actually, this came from a discussion which involved a number of young key forwards who were gifted ~50 to 70 games on potential rather than output. That list included Ratugolea, Mensch, Playfair and Hawkins - it's just that because Hawkins stands out on that list, he became the contentious talking point.

The main point was just that you have to "carry" tall forwards, particularly ones who aren't star juniors, for a bit longer than you do other players.

And I have no issue with any of our key forwards playing atm. They are our guys for the role and we will ride the bumps.
What I think is there are too many Henry and Neale 'fanbois' unwilling to call a spade a spade. They've both been piss poor in 2025. For us to get better as a team this must change.

Our 3 key forwards play like they did on Friday night next Thursday and Adelaide will cream us. Thillthorpe, Fogarty and Walker are all firing and will present a strong challenge for our defensive group.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

You have said on multiple occasions that their form is unacceptable. They are certainly not performing as we would like but the reality is that they absolutely should be selected this week and the next. Just think they are whipping boys playing in roles that at the moment are difficult to provide consistency. Absolutely agree that comparing him to hawkins' early career form is getting a bit tired but I think we could be a little more patient with a kid taken at 33 that has 24 games to his name. Whilst you didn't specifically say you want him dropped, saying it is unacceptable is a little overs IMO.

This is proving my point precisely.

To state that Neale and Henry should be in the team, shouldn't be dropped and should be persisted with it considered unfair merely because attached to it is an opinion that their form has been unacceptable.

Both can be true simultaneously. And IMO they are.

 

[Gazza Greatness]

That's great but up until year 5/6 on the list and beyond everyone said the same about Dawson Simpson and it all turned out to be wrong. I like Conway but he's a non entity until he can stay on the park.

Not meaning to sound derogatory or condescending Pure_Ownage: but I find comparing Dawson Simpson with Toby Conway NOT a very good comparison 'at all'. For one, Dawson Simpson was a 'big boned' and heavier man which means to say with his body height and size opposed to weight and bone density meant he was always going to be prone to structural issues as time went by, which is exactly what did happen. And secondly, Dawson Simpson was NEVER recognised at any stage in his career as a possible top 3 ruckman in the AFL, not even remotely so, in fact we were always hoping Dawson could just make it to a AFL ruckman standard but that is all.

Compare that to Toby Conway, who from the the moment he stepped through the Geelong doors, the clubs long term ambitions were for Toby to be one of the 'AFL's top ruckman' and certainly Geelong's best ruckman since Brad Ottens and Steven King. I've said this many, many times now Pure_Ownage: but Toby Conway is a 'deadset clone' of former Geelong captain and top VFL ruckman in Damian Bourke in every facet and importantly, NOT 'big boned' like Dawson Simpson as they, Toby and Damian could almost be considered identical twins in another lifetime, this is what you need to go by and btw.... GO CATS !!!

 

[PhatBoy]

I never said any of that.

I merely think the last decade of discussions on tall forwards, stretching back to Vardy and Walker all the way up to Neale has seen the same desire to shut down conversation by invoking the 'Some wanted Hawkins delisted' clause as a 'it's too early so shut up about it' catch all.

Neale isn't keeping anyone out of the team, either last year or this one. But it is still true that he was/is having games pumped into him regardless of what fluctuations in form are present, and the last fortnight was absolutely non-competitive. Not up to standard and frankly unacceptable output.

The same applies to Henry. His 80 goals in two seasons is why he gets games. His knack of doing nothing for 98% of matches is why he is rightly criticised.

I am just sick of the 'Hawkins delist' shut down tactic.
Neale and Henry for mine are absolutely warranting of strong criticism at this moment in time.

All relatively fair but even the Henry chat:

Do people actually realise that for the ‘huge’ four game sample size that is drawing criticism, he’s contributing 2 goals a game still? He’s kicked 4 and assisted 4.

The guy has had TWELVE, count them, TWELVE goal assists in his entire two seasons with the Cats before this year.

He has suddenly started this year, admittedly across a small sample size, to find teammates.

If people are going to crack down on him, at least do it fairly and look across his whole output.

Because right now, as far as his scoreboard impact goes? It’s exactly the same as it always has been for us - it’s just that the distribution between the ones he kicks, and the ones he sets up for others, has changed in the four games so far.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

No it wasn’t. You were shown a graphic that compared Ratugolea after almost 100 games.

You asked about players gifted their first 50 games. Well you’ve been given the answers. So read them.

Neale is kicking just under 1.2 goals per game. He’s contributing 0.57 goal assists a game, after 24 matches.

At the same stage Ratugolea had 18 goals from 24 games and less goal assists than Neale (Neale has 13, Esava had 5). So at identical stages Ratugolea was worse. Not similar. Worse.

After 24 games:

Neale: 28 goals, 13 goal assists, 41 goals contributed, average of 1.65 per game contributed

Esava: 18 goals, 4 assists, 22 goals contributed, 0.88 per game contributed.

They aren’t remotely close


After 50 games he had actually gotten worse still. He had kicked 31 goals after 49 games…. Then in his 50th he finally kicked 4.

After 50 games Esava had:

35 goals, 16 assists. He had JUST broken through the magical ‘one goal contributed per game’ barrier, albeit his actual goal output had dropped, and even THAT came courtesy of his only ever haul of four goals coming in his 50th match.

They’re not remotely similar, and that’s with Neale still only 24 games into his career.


Now, compared to Hawkins?

After 24 games


Neale: 28 goals, 13 goal assists, 41 goals contributed, average of 1.65 per game contributed

Hawkins: 33 goals, 15 assists, 48 goals contributed, average of 2 per game contributed.


By the time Hawkins got to 50

66 goals, 35 assists. 101 goals contributed. Average of 2 per game still. He hadn’t improved at all.

So, again, for the second time, his output isn’t similar to Esava Ratugolea, it’s much closer to that of Tom Hawkins; who was playing in a team that during that period won 52 out of 55 games at one point.

It’s ok to admit when you get something wrong, you replied to my quote saying hawk was not gifted games, sahib that I was shown in a post comparing their output, it wasn’t… it was ratugolea.

And the comparison of hawk and neale is a nicely fudged one.

Care to put a comparison with age involved?? Neale is 23 yo. Hawk was 18-19-20 with those stats. Apples and oranges.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Of course he was talented but he also took a shitload of time to deliver and you cannot possibly suggest that it wouldn’t have helped to be in a side with that level of relative of strength.

Going by that logic then it’s pretty bad neale only kicked 1 goal from barely and touches in rnd1 70 point smashing of freo.

 

[PhatBoy]

It’s ok to admit when you get something wrong, you replied to my quote saying hawk was not gifted games, sahib that I was shown in a post comparing their output, it wasn’t… it was ratugolea.

And the comparison of hawk and neale is a nicely fudged one.

Care to put a comparison with age involved?? Neale is 23 yo. Hawk was 18-19-20 with those stats. Apples and oranges.

What does age have to do with it? Hawkins was a probable #1 draft pick and no one is trying to say Neale is ever going to reach the same heights.

You’re arguing that forwards aren’t ’gifted games because they will develop later on.’

You’re being shown that it happens. No one has had to fudge anything, mate. You sound like one of those conspiracy theory Tigers fans or something. Take off the tinfoil hat ffs and just read what’s in front of you.

 

[PhatBoy]

Going by that logic then it’s pretty bad neale only kicked 1 goal from barely and touches in rnd1 70 point smashing of freo.

Where the hell has anybody argued otherwise? I’m trying to find it anywhere but I can’t.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Arguing with someone whose user name is Geelongcrazy_26 about the merits of Tom Hawkins is always fraught with danger.

It would be like someone trying to convince me that Ken Hinkley wasn’t the greatest half back flankers of the 90’s. It is a futile exercise.

I think the proof is well and truly in the pudding with any Tom Hawkins hindsight talk.

And yep my username was from hawk. I am an ex APS kid myself and saw Hawkins up and personal and boy was he a freakish talent… was a fan before he walked in the doors.

He showed elite talents from the get go.
I recall his first two games against Carlton then Melbourne.. was rising star favorite after those games and hailed as the next tony locket. Can’t say I have even seen 1/10th that level of talent from neale yet.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

What does age have to do with it? Hawkins was a probable #1 draft pick and no one is trying to say Neale is ever going to reach the same heights.

You’re arguing that forwards aren’t ’gifted games because they will develop later on.’

You’re being shown that it happens. No one has had to fudge anything, mate. You sound like one of those conspiracy theory Tigers fans or something. Take off the tinfoil hat ffs and just read what’s in front of you.

What does age have to do with it?? A lot. This shouldn’t be a hard question to work out.

Age means you have had more development in the system, more fitness and conditioning, more time in the gym doing strength work, more pre seasons of full fitness programs… more exposure in a full time AFL skill development environment… more 1on1 coaching… Jesus didn’t think I had to really spell out how age has something to do with it. It’s obvious.

So yes comparing a 18-19yo and 23 yo is fudging numbers because you are deliberately leaving out a fact that changes the story and narrative

 

[Heckler]

Tbh I don’t care about effort or competing, I care about output.

How long thru a season can you carry a key forward producing this??

Disposals
SEASON
6.5
BELOW AVG.


CAREER
8.2
BELOW AVG.
MORE

Kicks

SEASON
4.8
BELOW AVG.

Marks

SEASON
3.5
Below AVERAGE

If you want to improve Neal's output
Must go through the Learning Curve
Quickest way is to keep playing him
Neale has to pass through the dip

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Where the hell has anybody argued otherwise? I’m trying to find it anywhere but I can’t.

I’m not entirely honest why anyone is arguing at all. A lot of sensitive people when a player who is playing poorly gets criticized they jump up and down. I’m just calling a spade a spade.

All I have said is he has played poor this season and below AFL standard, and that we can’t carry that sort of form for the entire season. The match committee would need to seriously consider other options if he keeps averaging 1 goal 3 marks and 6 touches a game. That’s not a FF or CHF output afl standard.

 

[Rubberducky]

It’s heated in here! Love Neale and his work rate. Don’t think we have stuck to our system and that hurts our forwards. He wasn’t great against Melb but stood up late and that’s what you want most in a youngster, to not let the pressure of form impact his presence in a moment.

We did enough in Sat night and as we keep improving our consistency we will only get better. As will Neale and Henry. People are too quick to criticise like their opinions actually mean something. It’s just a forum, they are just kids playing sport. If you get this emotional on Sunday about them…. Well….

 

[geelong_crazy26]

If you want to improve Neal's output
Must go through the Learning Curve
Quickest way is to keep playing him
Neale has to pass through the dip
View attachment 2274286

Like Hawkins and Nathan ablett, if we are actually using quality forwards and not lemons as examples.. he just simply needs to contribute at the level. I don’t think right now he is giving enough to warrant 22-23 games this year if this form continues