Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)

[JackOutback]

You don't seem to understand you are comparing a forward/mid-forward with pure midfielders.

NicNat and Gawn aren’t midfielders and they top him also. That said, good to see NicNat finally getting the credit he deserves.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

When talking GOATs you don't need qualifiers and to be selective in relation to who you compare against.

Plenty of the HOF legends who are in GOAT discussions were mid-forwards. Skilton, KB, Lethal, Hutchinson, Reynolds, Bunton and Ebert were rovers/mids who also pushed forward and won club leading goal kickers.

Then you had the taller hybrids like Blight, Jezza, Baldock, Hird who are more in the Bont style spent plenty of time up forward due to marking strength and goal kicking.

GAJ himself was a forward who a large proportion of his career (before and after) he dominated the game as a mid.

But yes keep pulling up your selective groupings MR - you have helped confirm Dusty was the best finals player of 2010s (nobody disputing that anyway) so looking forward to you now using player ratings to argue that he was the best mid-forward of 2019-21.

If you ain't realized, neither is relevant when talking GOATs.

Dusty's overall career record has him similar level to a Joel Selwood, nothing wrong with that, but nowhere near GOAT levels.

And Brent Harvey (another mid-forward) has a player rating career avg of 15.10, another above the mighty Dusty.

Best finals player of the 2010's you say? Out of interest, exactly who was the best finals player of:

1960's, 1970's, 1980's, 1990's, 2000's?

If you can't answer that without thinking then Dusty is the best finals player in my lifetime, because when you get to the 2010's, guess what? Everyone knows without thinking exactly who it is, because he is so far in front of any contemporary that naming the 2nd best is almost impossible. Pretty much like it is very difficult to name the best finals player in any other decade bar the 50's(Barassi.)

How far in front is Dusty? Well the AVERAGE player rating of Dusty's highest rated 6 finals is above what any other contender has rated in ANY final. Coaches votes he has made a similar mess of the field. Norm Smith votes it only gets worse for the chasing pack.

As to your observation re all the rovers and ruck-rovers from history who changed in the forward pocket, spot on. The trouble is you weren't comparing Dusty to them when you listed his ratings v other players ratings, which is what I was responding to. Maybe you just forgot that somehow.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

NicNat and Gawn aren’t midfielders and they top him also. That said, good to see NicNat finally getting the credit he deserves.

Rucks don't play in the midfield now.

Learn something new every single day.

 

[RUNVS]

Rucks don't play in the midfield now.

Learn something new every single day.

There is a difference between being in the midfield and playing in the midfield.

 

[iameviljez]

1960's, 1970's, 1980's, 1990's, 2000's?

1980s: Ayres
1990s: McLeod, but it's hard to say because only three sides played in three GFs (West Coast, Geelong and Carlton).
2000s: Probably Vossy or Paul Chapman.

 

[FootyLad0]

So after another 10 pages of melts and dribble....nothing has changed.

Martin still isn't the GOAT. Shut it down mods.

 

[nineteen eighty]

LoL - undisputed, unanimous you Dusty Tuggers love hyperbole.

Please, he has 3 norm smiths and 3 Gary Ayers medals which elevates his standing.

He has never been the best player in the game outside of 2017, he has only been the best player at Richmond in two seasons for fecks sake (and they include finals)

He is a guy who had 3 good finals series that topped off 3 of his 4 top seasons of quality footy.

Outside of those years, he wasn't that impactful as evidenced by having a lower career avg player rating then Rory Sloane.

The same way that Dusty's standing in the game is talked up by some Tigers supporters, I think you're underselling him. He had 3 of the all time greatest finals series (not "good" as you put it). He is arguably the greatest finals player of all time. Let that sink in.

And to say that he had 4 top seasons of quality footy is seriously underselling him.

As I've posted, for mine he is not in the conversation of GOAT. He is much better than what you're giving him credit for.

 

[nineteen eighty]

He only played forward a bit more because Martin never had the tank to be a proper midfielder.

Factually incorrect. And you know it. And still you go there.

 

[iameviljez]

The same way that Dusty's standing in the game is talked up by some Tigers supporters, I think you're underselling him. He had 3 of the all time greatest finals series (not "good" as you put it). He is arguably the greatest finals player of all time. Let that sink in.

And to say that he had 4 top seasons of quality footy is seriously underselling him.

As I've posted, for mine he is not in the conversation of GOAT. He is much better than what you're giving him credit for.

Yeah, this is basically where he sits. He's not the GOAT, but he was the best player in the league for a year or two, and is the best finals player we've ever seen.

I think this conversation really comes from the fact that, at the end of 2017, he really did look like he could become the GOAT. Whatever the reason, he couldn't keep up that output year-on-year and thus he's not really in the GOAT convo.

 

[doppleganger]

Best finals player of the 2010's you say?

Yes. It has been acknowledged.

Nobody needs another stream of player ratings to help support it.

Out of interest, exactly who was the best finals player of:1960's, 1970's, 1980's, 1990's, 2000's?

I'm not an old bloke so don't go back that far.

And awards like Norm Smith / Gary Ayers are only recent, so no real way of validating.

As to your observation re all the rovers and ruck-rovers from history who changed in the forward pocket, spot on. The trouble is you weren't comparing Dusty to them when you listed his ratings v other players ratings, which is what I was responding to.

Yeah as that would be a GOAT comparison, Dusty doesn't belong in those conversations.

But in terms of players of the 2010s, player ratings has him on par with Joel Selwood...pretty fair.

But a fair gap between those two and player like GAJ, who would be the only recent mid-forward who would get in GOAT conversation.

 

[doppleganger]

The same way that Dusty's standing in the game is talked up by some Tigers supporters, I think you're underselling him. He had 3 of the all time greatest finals series (not "good" as you put it). He is arguably the greatest finals player of all time. Let that sink in.

He is in the discussion sure.

And to say that he had 4 top seasons of quality footy is seriously underselling him.

I don't think it is.

Majority of players never make it to winning league awards etc., being in top 5-10 etc.

Dusty got to that level, but didn't sustain it for as long as guys like GAJ, Danger, Pendles and Bont have/did.

As I've posted, for mine he is not in the conversation of GOAT. He is much better than what you're giving him credit for.

Ranking him alongside Joel Selwood is hardly poor company.

Joel a 6xAA, 3xBnF, 14.32 player ratings, 817 coaches votes, 214 brownlow votes.

Dusty a 4xAA, 2xBnF, 14.35 player ratings, 795 coaches votes, 213 brownlow votes.

He may have had a better single peak year, but overall Joel matched him.

And no Geelong supporter would try and elevate Joel into GOAT discussions based on selective stats.

 

[Gavin Excell]

So after another 10 pages of melts and dribble....nothing has changed.

Martin still isn't the GOAT. Shut it down mods.

Given the difficult years ahead, I can see Tiger fans raising this thread and their equivalents for many seasons to come

 

[STPer18]

Your parroting of player ratings has converted me.

Reckon they nail it

Dusty grouped alongside a great like Selwood, just below Kennedy, Gawn and Sloane.

Selwood career avg of 14.32
Dusty career avg of 14.35

Sloane career avg of 14.51
Josh Kennedy (Sydney) avg of 14.52
Max Gawn avg of 14.60
Clayton Oliver avg of 14.82
Fyfe avg of 14.82

Pendles avg 15.32
NicNat avg 15.84

Bont avg 16.45
Danger career avg of 16.55
GAJ career avg 17.00 (GOAT)

A few steps below greats and GAJ stands alone as the GOAT. Dusty only had 1 season better than GAJ career average!!

The player ratingz weren't a thing a thing for Selwood's first five seasons which may or may not work in his favour with these mystical numbers, but let the records show the excluded seasons contain 2x AAs, 1x BnF & a top 3 AFLCA vote.

 

[Rich01]

Given the difficult years ahead, I can see Tiger fans raising this thread and their equivalents for many seasons to come

Yup. And the same old Geelong posters in here showing that the player has clearly done a number on them mentally years after he stepped onto the field for the last time.

 

[iameviljez]

And no Geelong supporter would try and elevate Joel into GOAT discussions based on selective stats.

Admittedly, that's been because we have been blessed by two footballers who were even better than that in the same era. Seriously, sometimes I shake my head at how much us Geelong fans have been kissed on the dick by fate.

 

[tiger_tough]

Yet another Richmond thread infested with Cats fans. Get over it.

 

[HalloweenJack]

If Melbourne had drafted Martin they probably would have won a flag before their break-through win in 2021. I'm not sure that I would be as confident with saying that about any other contemporary player. Martin was a great player.

 

[Take the VC not the IV]

At the end of the day I look at like this, if the Tigers had no Dustin from '17 to '20 but instead had Pendlebury, do the Tigers still win those flags?

If we had Gary jnr instead of Dustin do we win those flags? I say No.

Selfish Gary jnr has on his resume a 38 disposal and 2 goal game whilst playing for a Norm Smith rather than allowing the Norm Smith to come to him. Now let's not forget that's Gary jnr playing for a stacked team that only lost 1 game during the 2008 H&A season, so he could no way of did for the Tigers what Dustin did in a team not as stacked as that Geelong team.

I'm not saying that Dustin is the greatest of all time, but it's not selfish Gary jnr that's better than him.

 

[FootyLad0]

If we had Gary jnr instead of Dustin do we win those flags? I say No.

This is an insane take

 

[STPer18]

At the end of the day I look at like this, if the Tigers had no Dustin from '17 to '20 but instead had Pendlebury, do the Tigers still win those flags?

If we had Gary jnr instead of Dustin do we win those flags? I say No.

Selfish Gary jnr has on his resume a 38 disposal and 2 goal game whilst playing for a Norm Smith rather than allowing the Norm Smith to come to him. Now let's not forget that's Gary jnr playing for a stacked team that only lost 1 game during the 2008 H&A season, so he could no way of did for the Tigers what Dustin did in a team not as stacked as that Geelong team.

I'm not saying that Dustin is the greatest of all time, but it's not selfish Gary jnr that's better than him.

What sort of impact do you say the Richmond Emasculation Tragedy by the CFL led Steve Hocking had on Dustie? Once the rules changed to disarm the mighty mighty Tigs, Dustie's form wavered from that point on right up until the wooden spooned retirement.

 

[tiger_tough]

If Melbourne had drafted Martin they probably would have won a flag before their break-through win in 2021. I'm not sure that I would be as confident with saying that about any other contemporary player. Martin was a great player.

Not sure about that Ed. Martin was one (huge) piece of a big puzzle that all came together at the same time in 2017. Dees didn't have a Rance or a Riewoldt or a Cotchin either.

 

[Dont_be_a_Plonka]

If he plays for Gold Coast next season and kicks 600 goals he's possibly in the conversion as to being better than Lethal.

If not lololololololol at the mere suggestion.

 

[RUNVS]

This is an insane take

I had to read that comment twice. It is truly delusional.

 

[Take the VC not the IV]

What sort of impact do you say the Richmond Emasculation Tragedy by the CFL led Steve Hocking had on Dustie? Once the rules changed to disarm the mighty mighty Tigs, Dustie's form wavered from that point on right up until the wooden spooned retirement.

This is a very good question!

Now we all know that sport is 80% mental, so it's not unreasonable to believe that if you're playing for a team that has been emasculated so Geelong could prosper, it would effect the mental side of the Tigers game. This was the Tigers problem after 2020 in the astute observers opinion.

 

[JackOutback]

At the end of the day I look at like this, if the Tigers had no Dustin from '17 to '20 but instead had Pendlebury, do the Tigers still win those flags?

If we had Gary jnr instead of Dustin do we win those flags? I say No.

Selfish Gary jnr has on his resume a 38 disposal and 2 goal game whilst playing for a Norm Smith rather than allowing the Norm Smith to come to him. Now let's not forget that's Gary jnr playing for a stacked team that only lost 1 game during the 2008 H&A season, so he could no way of did for the Tigers what Dustin did in a team not as stacked as that Geelong team.

I'm not saying that Dustin is the greatest of all time, but it's not selfish Gary jnr that's better than him.

Just to be clear, you think if you had Gablett instead of Martin, Adelaide turn around a 48-point loss and GWS an 89-point loss. This is what you’re saying?