Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)

[Captain_Bender]

6>4
4>3

All-Australian in 2009 & 2010 as a 3rd/4th year player, BnF in 2010 as a 4th year player. ELITE from the get go!

Carried from the get go, would be Nathan Jones level if he was drafted to a different club

 

[Xtreme]

ELITE from the get go!

Elite at getting free kicks illegally!

 

[Mr Meow]

Elite at getting free kicks illegally!

And Brownlow votes - more than Dusty!

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Why contest the ball if you are able to get yourself free? Reminds me of Kevin Bartlett (the best Tiger player I’ve ever seen) who hardly ever got tackled or have to contest for the ball, but cunning enough to get the ball and goal.

Anyway it’s hard to compare Dusty and GAJ as they have two different playing styles.

So for the ultimate GOAT, let it be Hayden Bunton as nobody can prove otherwise (no footage and those that saw him - their memory has faded).

The reason why Dusty's contested goals are so valuable is simple.

In Ablett's case in that clip he requires a team-mate to have the ball under control and deliver it to him with precision for most of his goals. His speed is obviously a weapon but his 20 goals 23 behinds from 25 finals shows he was not a highly effective goal scorer in finals. In Dusty's case, if you watch all his finals goals(27 goals 12 behinds from 16 finals) you see most of them the ball does not need to be delivered with precision, players can just hack it forward to anywhere near his contests and a goal results. You can see this in the following clip. He probably received about 7 of those goals with any precision by hand or foot. But in almost all of those cases he was under immediate physical pressure and/or still conjured a great finish.



This allowed Richmond to have more & cheaper resources up the field, like Castagna etc, which really constricted opposition scoring, while still maintaining strong scoring themselves. When those players got the ball they did not have to do anything precise for a goal to result. It is a much simpler task for the team to get a goal that way than to engineer plays where a team-mate has to be in total control of the ball and deliver it with complete precision.

So it is not a matter of Ablett doing anything wrong in using his pace to get clear, receive the ball then score. It is more what Martin's ability to turn scrappy contests into goals allows the team to do. In his 2nd stint at Geelong, Ablett kicked just 3 goals in 8 finals. So let's go back to when he kicked 17 goals in his earlier 17 finals. Th amounts of goals scored against Geelong, despite having almost exclusively AA selected players in their backline, were:

18, 9, 12, 9, 7, 8, 13, 6, 8, 7, 18, 12, 6, 9, 12, 10, 18 = 10.6 average, 9 median

In Dusty's 16 finals the opposition goals scored were(Rance Houli & Grimes the only AA defenders):

18, 20, 15, 5, 9, 8, 9, 15, 8, 9, 3, 10, 6, 6, 7, 16 = 10.1 average, 9 median


Bolded are the games where Ablett or Martin had 3 or more goals + assists. Where Ablett did it the opposition averaged 9 goals. Where Martin did it the opposition was averaging just 6.6 goals. Ablett never got more than 3 goals+assists in a final. Dusty averaged over 5 goals+assists in the bolded 6 finals above where the opposition team in total averaged just 6.6 goals in those finals. Those 6 finals were more or less the difference on Dusty's finals CV compared to other great players. Beside those he had about 3 x BOG's(or near) from 10 finals - roughly the finals record you might expect from another great player in their prime. The 3 Grand Finals Dusty played in are all bolded by the way. He had 15 goals + assists. The opposition teams scored 18 goals total in those 3 Grand Finals.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

You say this yet the best 3 games finals games out of this lot are Buddy’s.

07 elimination final where he kicked 7 including the winner. 08 QF where he destroyed lake and kicked 8.

Plus 2014 pf where he had 23 disposals kicked 5 had 4 goal assists and 15 score involvements.

In 2012 also averaged over 20 disposals, 3 goals, 1 goal assists (while also averaging 4 behinds, if only he’d kicked straight) while his team was far from dominant and he was only one keeping them in it.

For all this talk of Martin being dominant he doesn’t even get in Franklin’s ball park when he was up and running.

We have player ratings for this performance. Franklin's player rating in this game was 23.4. Dusty had several finals ratings above that:

2017 QF 26.3
2017 GF 30.9
2018 QF 26.4
2020 SF 33.0
2020 PF 27.2
2020 GF 32.1

So it is not so straightforward to just say Buddy kicked x goals therfore his performances were better than Dusty's best.

Franklin was a great player with a very tidy finals record. But his finals record is not in the same ballpark as Dusty's, not even close.

 

[STPer18]

Elite at getting free kicks illegally!

And winning flags!

 

[H00t]

We have player ratings for this performance. Franklin's player rating in this game was 23.4. Dusty had several finals ratings above that:

2017 QF 26.3
2017 GF 30.9
2018 QF 26.4
2020 SF 33.0
2020 PF 27.2
2020 GF 32.1

So it is not so straightforward to just say Buddy kicked x goals therfore his performances were better than Dusty's best.

Franklin was a great player with a very tidy finals record. But his finals record is not in the same ballpark as Dusty's, not even close.

Was only a matter of time before player ratings got a run again.

Franklin’s best games were better than Martin’s best.

 

[RUNVS]

Was only a matter of time before player ratings got a run again.

Franklin’s best games were better than Martin’s best.

Yep. A Key Forward is ultimately more important than a midfielder too. A dominant game from a key forward is more likely to win you the game than a dominant game from a midfielder.

 

[Xtreme]

And winning flags!

And kicking goals to put the exclamation point on the victory

 

[RUNVS]

And kicking goals to put the exclamation point on the victory

AI is getting so good these days. It almost looks like that game actually happened. It is just a shame the 2022 Grand Final was cancelled a few hours before the first bounce.

 

[PhatBoy]

Show me one match report of the 2014 and 2015 finals where Dusty wasn't named in Richmond's best, both games better than any of Ablett's finals before 2007

19 touches, 3 goals, 10 contested possessions and 7 tackles in a final in 2005. Which Geelong won.

Martin’s 2015 final saw him get 21 touches, 0 tackles, 0 goals, 0 goal assists, 6 contested possessions, and you lost.
A year earlier Martin had 29 touches, 0 goals, 2 tackles, 9 contested possessions, 1 goal assist, and you lost.

Named in your best or not, I think I know who was doing better out of the performances highlighted.

For a group who pride themselves on sneering at Ablett’s stat padding and not doing hard work etc etc, it seems an odd pair of matches to contrast with Ablett’s pre-2007 body of work.

 

[Captain_Bender]

19 touches, 3 goals, 10 contested possessions and 7 tackles in a final in 2005. Which Geelong won.

Martin’s 2015 final saw him get 21 touches, 0 tackles, 0 goals, 0 goal assists, 6 contested possessions, and you lost.
A year earlier Martin had 29 touches, 0 goals, 2 tackles, 9 contested possessions, 1 goal assist, and you lost.

Named in your best or not, I think I know who was doing better out of the performances highlighted.

For a group who pride themselves on sneering at Ablett’s stat padding and not doing hard work etc etc, it seems an odd pair of matches to contrast with Ablett’s pre-2007 body of work.

Ablett played in a blowout against a weak opponent, Dusty played against stronger teams

 

[STPer18]

19 touches, 3 goals, 10 contested possessions and 7 tackles in a final in 2005. Which Geelong won.

Martin’s 2015 final saw him get 21 touches, 0 tackles, 0 goals, 0 goal assists, 6 contested possessions, and you lost.
A year earlier Martin had 29 touches, 0 goals, 2 tackles, 9 contested possessions, 1 goal assist, and you lost.

Named in your best or not, I think I know who was doing better out of the performances highlighted.

For a group who pride themselves on sneering at Ablett’s stat padding and not doing hard work etc etc, it seems an odd pair of matches to contrast with Ablett’s pre-2007 body of work.

Lil garrie 2 clearly the pick of the bunch here. Will pop back in later for the spin.

 

[Cromulant]

Short answer no.

Is he the best "big game" player of all time ?? Also no.

Is he the best Richmond player of all time ?? Very much in the conversation

 

[PhatBoy]

Ablett played in a blowout against a weak opponent, Dusty played against stronger teams

In 2014 he played against a Port team who Richmond beat a month earlier.
In 2015 he played against North Melbourne who you finished two wins above, playing at your home venue.

Against Melbourne in the 2006 elimination final Ablett kicked the second of his goals when we were 13 points in front midway through the second term against a team who finished level with us on 12-10 who beat us two weeks earlier, playing on their home ground.


Any other brain busters you want to throw at us? F**k you would think given that you are literally using the internet to post this commentary, you would avail yourself of the actual internet, to look this stuff up before you comment.

 

[Captain_Bender]

In 2014 he played against a Port team who Richmond beat a month earlier.
In 2015 he played against North Melbourne who you finished two wins above, playing at your home venue.

Against Melbourne in the 2006 elimination final Ablett kicked the second of his goals when we were 13 points in front midway through the second term against a team who finished level with us on 12-10 who beat us two weeks earlier, playing on their home ground.


Any other brain busters you want to throw at us? F**k you would think given that you are literally using the internet to post this commentary, you would avail yourself of the actual internet, to look this stuff up before you comment.

Didn't know Geelong played in the 2006 elimination final

Melbourne were a side with a percentage under 100% very weak finals side, Port Adelaide and North Melbourne both played off in prelims and had better win loss records and percentage than that Melbourne side, both far harder games

 

[PhatBoy]

Didn't know Geelong played in the 2006 elimination final

Melbourne were a side with a percentage under 100% very weak finals side, Port Adelaide and North Melbourne both played off in prelims and had better win loss records and percentage than that Melbourne side, both far harder games

Oh terribly sorry my thumb bumped the number next to the 5 on my iPhone

That changes the dynamic of everything

Who gives a shit what their percentage was. They beat us a few weeks prior, they were on their home ground.


You lost to a team 3 spots below you, on your home ground

Whats more, you flogged them by 7 goals a week earlier. In THEIR home venue.

Which you conveniently forgot to let anyone know.


Are you in the paddle boat with Blaisee and Smasha by any chance?

 

[Captain_Bender]

Oh terribly sorry my thumb bumped the number next to the 5 on my iPhone

That changes the dynamic of everything

Who gives a shit what their percentage was. They beat us a few weeks prior, they were on their home ground.


You lost to a team 3 spots below you, on your home ground

Whats more, you flogged them by 7 goals a week earlier. In THEIR home venue.

Which you conveniently forgot to let anyone know.


Are you in the paddle boat with Blaisee and Smasha by any chance?

A game where North Melbourne rested most of their players, did you even watch footy then?

 

[PhatBoy]

A game where North Melbourne rested most of their players, did you even watch footy then?

I’m guessing you didn’t if you made the claim that Dustin Martin excelled with 29 touches and f**k all else against a stronger opposition when Richmond went into an elimination final on their home ground ranked 5th and lost to a team ranked 8th.

Try not to get sarcastic after you’ve already made a mistake like that.

You’re behind, don’t make it worse.


Oh, and by the way:

The ‘most’ of the players they rested?

They played 7 guys in that team in the final round who played less than 10 matches in 2015.

The rest were all players who played a minimum of 11 games for the season and the majority were their regulars.

You can’t bullshit a bullshitter now matter how much you wish you could.

 

[Captain_Bender]

I’m guessing you didn’t if you made the claim that Dustin Martin excelled with 29 touches and f**k all else against a stronger opposition when Richmond went into an elimination final on their home ground ranked 5th and lost to a team ranked 8th.

Try not to get sarcastic after you’ve already made a mistake like that.

You’re behind, don’t make it worse.

And Dusty was barely to blame for Richmond losing finals in 2014 and 2015, he still played better finals than Ablett did against weaker sides, don't know why a simple fact makes you so insecure

 

[PhatBoy]

And Dusty was barely to blame for Richmond losing finals in 2014 and 2015, he still played better finals than Ablett did against weaker sides, don't know why a simple fact makes you so insecure

Who said he was to blame for it.

Where have you proven your second statement?

his grand final against us was probably a better final than any final Ablett ever played. One or two other finals maybe.

That’s probably it. Not sure where your ‘weaker side’ angle comes from.

Make a coherent argument for f**ks sake.

At least meteoric rise tries to use data and samples that exist rather than drawing from things that never happened.