List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion

[BigMonty]

If we had chosen Petracca over Paddy, Bont over Billings, we would not be having these discussions. Be supping Champagne from 2 premierships.

These two players are one club 200 game plus A grade players and what you expect from top 5ish picks.

If we had got a Kosi like performance and longevity from McCartin (Roo is not a fair comparison).

Billings more like Dal (Lenny too unfair) then firstly

1. they would still be playing
2. we would not be having to find another forward with King.
3. Have another A grade mid to accompany Steele and Macrae.
4. We would be in the 8 and pushing top 4 but not quite Premiership class.

That's the draft and we screwed it along with getting nothing much out of Goddard Acres Billings MacKenzie and Dunstan.

Only 1 playing regular games is a horrible result.

It is not just the misses it has been the lack of longevity that has also strangled us.

Collingwood having Pendles, Sideburns, Elliot et al playing so many games at such a high standard makes it much easier to fill in the remaining gaps.

We have neither draftered at the top end of the draft either talentvand longevity.

If we had of got Seb Ross levels from 4 or 5 of the first rounders we would be a lot higher up the ladder.

This time around lets hope the new draftees stay the distance, Wilson looks like doing that if Poo Garcia and for that matter, King, lerform to potential and over seasons we will have a seriously good platform to build upon.

On SM-S916B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Jade Buddha]

Oh my, the PTSD

Post traumatic saints disorder

 

[Parkysp]

I just listened to the Kane Cornes piece on SEN. Given that he was speaking as a "list manager", I was thinking about which club I want him to go to in that role. I landed on Hawthorn. Put that club into 20 years of hell in the Dingley dump. Please please Kane do it. Make us all happy.

 

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

Yep, that's why they sacked everyone and changed direction. Massive success.

hahaha, i think you were singing a different tune halfway through last year

 

[The Punter]

Its no surprise we lack elite mids. We have not selected a player in the top 10 who primarily played as a true midfielder in juniors, since David Armitage in 2006.
Partly because of the sort of factor you alluded to - we seem to never quite have the pick of the draft in the years that would suit... but we've also had plenty opportunities to do something about that.

We didn't quite have the right pick this year because of an unfair, anachronistic, unfixable rule that ruins the draft and by extension the equity of the competition.

 

[BigMonty]

We didn't quite have the right pick this year because of an unfair, anachronistic, unfixable rule that ruins the draft and by extension the equity of the competition.

Hi Punter, love your balanced view on things and agree with nearly everything you say, but think enough is enough on the inequalities of the draft etc, howling at the moon is fun, do it myself, inevitabky it is unlikely to change much.
Put your obvious talents and observations to other facets of our club.
Of course you can tell me to mind my own fing business and call me a Kent in the process.

Not enough use of Kent anymore which is sad, loved it and it has died away....bring back old rubber guts Kent.

On SM-S916B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[gringo2011]

Exactly. He was never in the top 8 or so convos until the Pies were showing interest late-ish.

Nah, he was definitely flying up the order but it would have taken huge balls to take him at 3. Tauru is probably similar. He bolted up the board late. Some had him in their top 5 players but there were some gun shy clubs. I liked Bont but though he could be another Andreas Everett that wasn’t a KP or a mid so became a B grade utility.

 

[gringo2011]

hahaha, i think you were singing a different tune halfway through last year

Huh? I’m a whinger but I’m always pretty consistent. What are you suggesting I said different? I was critical of the club for years and identified every one of the issues that it took them years to work out.

 

[The Punter]

Hi Punter, love your balanced view on things and agree with nearly everything you say, but think enough is enough on the inequalities of the draft etc, howling at the moon is fun, do it myself, inevitabky it is unlikely to change much.
Put your obvious talents and observations to other facets of our club.
Of course you can tell me to mind my own fing business and call me a Kent in the process.

Not enough use of Kent anymore which is sad, loved it and it has died away....bring back old rubber guts Kent.

On SM-S916B using BigFooty.com mobile app

My level of comment on the rule is entirely commensurate with the size of the problem the rule creates.

I respectfully inform you I will not be complying with your request. I will, however, continue to walk and chew gum at the same time because I can focus on more than one thing at a time.

#abolishthefathersonrule

 

[Klaatu]

My level of comment on the rule is entirely commensurate with the size of the problem the rule creates.

I respectfully inform you I will not be complying with your request. I will, however, continue to walk and chew gum at the same time because I can focus on more than one thing at a time.

#abolishthefathersonrule

I like the father son rule , what i don't like is the cost you pay i believe the best way to attain a father son is to pay what he's worth easy , Cal Twomey is regared as a draft guru as is Shifter there might be a few others around and year by year they rate them and even bring out their phantom draft say Levi Ashcroft at number 1 so the cost needs to be their 1st rounder or even future 1st rounder either way the price must be what the draft pick would be.

The AFL knew Levi was number 1 draft pick & should of made Brisbane pay that price or allow Richmond who finished last to draft him & Bris & Rich negotiate or come to some agreement that satisfies the Tigers be it players traded or draft picks given.

 

[Saints4ever]

I like the father son rule , what i don't like is the cost you pay i believe the best way to attain a father son is to pay what he's worth easy , Cal Twomey is regared as a draft guru as is Shifter there might be a few others around and year by year they rate them and even bring out their phantom draft say Levi Ashcroft at number 1 so the cost needs to be their 1st rounder or even future 1st rounder either way the price must be what the draft pick would be.

The AFL knew Levi was number 1 draft pick & should of made Brisbane pay that price or allow Richmond who finished last to draft him & Bris & Rich negotiate or come to some agreement that satisfies the Tigers be it players traded or draft picks given.

I like the bidding system.

Except for a heap of rubbish picks equaling a good pick that’s where it goes wrong.

If a player is bid on with a round 1 pick then you need to match with a round 1 pick.

Simple.

 

[The Punter]

Does the pick go to the club whose pick is being taken or jumped in front of?

Richmond finished last. Only they should have access to every player with their first pick. If Brisbane want that pick, they should have to compensate Richmond to their satisfaction. Anything else is unfair.

I won't be barracking any harder for St Kilda if a Riewoldt boy is playing for us, or enjoy a premiership any more if a Riewoldt boy plays in it. The minimal, contestable benefits of the rule to the competition are far outweighed by the damage it does to the draft and my extension the integrity of the competition.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

If we had chosen Petracca over Paddy, Bont over Billings, we would not be having these discussions. Be supping Champagne from 2 premierships.

These two players are one club 200 game plus A grade players and what you expect from top 5ish picks.

If we had got a Kosi like performance and longevity from McCartin (Roo is not a fair comparison).

Billings more like Dal (Lenny too unfair) then firstly

1. they would still be playing
2. we would not be having to find another forward with King.
3. Have another A grade mid to accompany Steele and Macrae.
4. We would be in the 8 and pushing top 4 but not quite Premiership class.

That's the draft and we screwed it along with getting nothing much out of Goddard Acres Billings MacKenzie and Dunstan.

Only 1 playing regular games is a horrible result.

It is not just the misses it has been the lack of longevity that has also strangled us.

Collingwood having Pendles, Sideburns, Elliot et al playing so many games at such a high standard makes it much easier to fill in the remaining gaps.

We have neither draftered at the top end of the draft either talentvand longevity.

If we had of got Seb Ross levels from 4 or 5 of the first rounders we would be a lot higher up the ladder.

This time around lets hope the new draftees stay the distance, Wilson looks like doing that if Poo Garcia and for that matter, King, lerform to potential and over seasons we will have a seriously good platform to build upon.

On SM-S916B using BigFooty.com mobile app

First round picks.
2003: Raph Clarke, became a GOP but did contribute was a very weak draft.
2004: Andrew McQualter. Became a pressure forward very lack lustre as a player.
2005: Traded away, nothing to show for it.
2006: David Armitage, more than useful player.
2007: Ben McEvoy. Solid choice. Obvious mid choice - Patrick Dangerfield.
2008: Tom Lynch, good player, at another club. Obvious mid choice - Luke Shoey.
2009: Traded , nothing to show for it.
2010: Jamie Cripps , go home factor.
2011: Seb Ross
2012: Traded for WAFL level forward. Hickey gave some value. (67g) Mids available, Aiden Corr, Ben Kennedy.
2013: Billings. Talked about mids as likely at the time, Aish, Scharenberg.
2014: Paddy, who could footy but had concussion. Mids obviously Petracca and Angus Brayshaw.
2015: Traded on Carlisle. - Got 66 games from him. Mids available for our original pick, Callum Ah Che, Wayne Milera.
2016: Traded to Hawks ( obvious mids were Florent or Simpkin ).
2017: Clark /Coffield. I'm calling Clark a mid, other mids thereabouts Lachie O'Brian, Ling.
2018: King , mids maybe Bailey Smith.

Our big first round trades have been pretty bad. 3 out of 4 big first round trades gave us zip at one point.
Even the successful ones weren't that long lasting. ( Carlisle played less games for us than Mat Maguire ).
Thank god Hill can at least play.

There's no fixed formula , going for mids over talls doesn't always come out better.
To me its more about reading the draft.
You need a tall? but its a draft with strong mids, take the mid.
The mids in the Clark/Coffield draft were actually pretty ordinary, Naughton is the guy we should have had.

Imagine a world where we took Petracca over Paddy, then Naughton over Coffield.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I like the bidding system.

Except for a heap of rubbish picks equaling a good pick that’s where it goes wrong.

If a player is bid on with a round 1 pick then you need to match with a round 1 pick.

Simple.

The system worked reasonably until future trading became a thing.

 

[The Punter]

McQualter was an integral part in a GF team that Raph also played in.

Armitage a pass and Billings not? Very similar levels of output over the course of their St Kilda careers.

Lynch is the lost one (Lyon recruited Gamble when we should have been playing Lynch in that role), but if Lynch flourishes at St Kilda, we never recruit Membrey.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

McQualter was an integral part in a GF team that Raph also played in.

Armitage a pass and Billings not? Very similar levels of output over the course of their St Kilda careers.

Lynch is the lost one (Lyon recruited Gamble when we should have been playing Lynch in that role), but if Lynch flourishes at St Kilda, we never recruit Membrey.

Same number of games true. Similar levels of output? Seriously?

Jack Steven and David Armitage were the engine room for a few years. Armo was top 20 in the AFL for Disposals, Tackles, Clearances and Contested Possessions in 2015.
I think that his injuries late in his career downplayed Armitage in the memories of a lot of people.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

McQualter was an integral part in a GF team that Raph also played in.

Armitage a pass and Billings not? Very similar levels of output over the course of their St Kilda careers.

Lynch is the lost one (Lyon recruited Gamble when we should have been playing Lynch in that role), but if Lynch flourishes at St Kilda, we never recruit Membrey.

In hindsight i'm not fussed about him, he really only had around 2 hot seasons at the Crows.
Cripps was disappointing at the time.

 

[The Punter]

Same number of games true. Similar levels of output? Seriously?

Jack Steven and David Armitage were the engine room for a few years. Armo was top 20 in the AFL for Disposals, Tackles, Clearances and Contested Possessions in 2015.
I think that his injuries late in his career downplayed Armitage in the memories of a lot of people.

Both had one elite year - Armitage 2015, Billings 2017. In 2017 three players played 22 games and averaged 23 disposals and a goal per game: Dusty, Danger and Jack Billings.

Also worth pointing out that 2015 was the only season Armitage averaged more than 22 disposals per game, so as an inside mid, he was a solid B at best for the rest of his career (a lot like Billings aside from 2017).

Happy to stand by rating them similarly in terms of performance while at St Kilda.

 

[MordySaint]

Surely one of Tauru or Barrat hit as a KPD. Since 2012, we have done this:

2013: trade for Luke Delaney and Josh Bruce (who ends up as a forward by Round 18). Finish last in 2014
2014: draft Hugh Goddard
2015: trade for Carlisle (who promptly gets suspended for a year)
2016: sign Nathan Brown. Draft Battle (as a forward), draft Darragh Joyce
2017: trade for Logan Austin, draft Clavarino
2018: draft Wilkie
2019: trade for Dougal Howard
2020: sign James Frawley, draft Highmore
2021: draft Oscar Adams
2022: sign Zaine Cordy, draft Van Es & Keeler (as a forward/ruck), sign Caminiti (as a forward)
2023: no KPDs added (depending on how you view Schoenmakers)
2024: draft Tauru and Barrat

That's just an incredible run of almost blanket ineptitude there. Wilkie is an A+, Howard is a B, Battle is probably a B too (did not play as a KPD 2017-2018, or 2020-2021), and Carlisle is a B-. But we essentially got nothing out of Goddard, Austin, Clavarino, Frawley, Highmore, Adams, & Van Es, got not much from Delaney, Bruce (as a KPD), Joyce and Brown, and everyone else is too early to grade.

But those are 20 names in that list. Surely we are due to hit a National Draft KPD to play 100 games in that position.

i really don't put it down to any unsuccessful draft selection or recruitment.

This goes right back to the Saints Future Fest program in 2014 where we resigned 19 players in a couple of weeks.
The #SaintsFutureFest was seen as the biggest group of re-signings ever announced by an AFL club.

"Youngsters Luke Dunstan, Josh Saunders, Jack Newnes, Lewis Pierce, Darren Minchington, Blake Acres, Spencer White, Jimmy Webster, Eli Templeton, Seb Ross, Daniel Markworth, Tom Curren, Josh Bruce, Brodie Murdoch, Nathan Wright, Cameron Shenton, Billy Longer, Tom Lee and Billings formed the group of players to have committed to St Kilda’s future."

Next generation commits as 19 sign on for #SaintsFutureFest

Re-signing blitz comes to a close with an unprecedented 19 players re-signing with St Kilda as part of #SaintsFutureFest

www.saints.com.au

We then doubled down and committed to the Road to 2018. A list of goals which seemed outrageously optimistic at best.

COMMENT: Saints' road to flag a highway to hell

Mitch Cleary on St Kilda's failed plan to be a top-four side in 2018

www.afl.com.au

This group of players and coaches were the ones that were the ones that were going to take us to the promised land and beyond... even the first international AFL club.

The club was bound to the 2018 goals and would seemingly try any short term fix to reach them. Unfortunately the players and coaches selected for these lofty goals were never going to any of them. The SaintsFutureFest and Road to 2018 was a noose around our necks which would have ramifications for years to come.

 

[gringo2011]

i really don't put it down to any unsuccessful draft selection or recruitment.

This goes right back to the Saints Future Fest program in 2014 where we resigned 19 players in a couple of weeks.
The #SaintsFutureFest was seen as the biggest group of re-signings ever announced by an AFL club.

"Youngsters Luke Dunstan, Josh Saunders, Jack Newnes, Lewis Pierce, Darren Minchington, Blake Acres, Spencer White, Jimmy Webster, Eli Templeton, Seb Ross, Daniel Markworth, Tom Curren, Josh Bruce, Brodie Murdoch, Nathan Wright, Cameron Shenton, Billy Longer, Tom Lee and Billings formed the group of players to have committed to St Kilda’s future."

Next generation commits as 19 sign on for #SaintsFutureFest

Re-signing blitz comes to a close with an unprecedented 19 players re-signing with St Kilda as part of #SaintsFutureFest

www.saints.com.au

We then doubled down and committed to the Road to 2018. A list of goals which seemed outrageously optimistic at best.

COMMENT: Saints' road to flag a highway to hell

Mitch Cleary on St Kilda's failed plan to be a top-four side in 2018

www.afl.com.au

This group of players and coaches were the ones that were the ones that were going to take us to the promised land and beyond... even the first international AFL club.

The club was bound to the 2018 goals and would seemingly try any short term fix to reach them. Unfortunately the players and coaches selected for these lofty goals were never going to any of them. The SaintsFutureFest and Road to 2018 was a noose around our necks which would have ramifications for years to come.

That's why pro staff in the footy department are absolutely essential. Identifying who to commit time and energy into is as important as the draft selections. If you spend 4 or 5 years to work out that your C grade kid is never going to be more than a C grade kid you've wasted a lot of time and money.

On top of that the development system is also crucial. We just failed to put money into any of the essential parts of running the club's on field fortunes.

We have done a near full rebuild since 2019. 7 players left out of 48. Hunter Clark and Webster are close to the fringes now too. King potentially won't make it due to his body and Steele, Marshall, Wilkie and Sincs all in their twilight.

 

[stavro#4]

And this is why everyone wanted to trade out of this years draft for last years.

At this point. Just scrap it and run with zones.

 

[jumperfan]

And this is why everyone wanted to trade out of this years draft for last years.

At this point. Just scrap it and run with zones.

bUt tRaDiTion and fAirNesS to tHe pOoR nOrThErn cLuBs!!!1!!1!!

 

[Remboy]

And this is why everyone wanted to trade out of this years draft for last years.

At this point. Just scrap it and run with zones.

Surely the AFL has to do something. It will be a joke if nearly half of the draft pool arent able to be picked.

 

[Ads734]

Surely the AFL has to do something. It will be a joke if nearly half of the draft pool arent able to be picked.

They had the chance to fix the academies make them fairer and instead they doubled down on an absolutely terrible system. Run by absolute gronks

 

[goodie23]

They had the chance to fix the academies make them fairer and instead they doubled down on an absolutely terrible system. Run by absolute gronks

No sooner did a "big club" stand to miss out on a NGA they backflipped. Absolute howler of a decision, glad our pres has spoken out and hope he continues to do so.