List Mgmt. 2024 Trade Thread - No.1

[PandaG]

I understand this is going to upset a lot but I think its a move the club should seriously consider!

Looking ahead I am becoming more convinced while he has high trade value we should look to move on from Max King. Some might believe Max is a once in a generation key forward but I beg to differ - at present he is just potential. I know he is still only 23yo but his game is so flawed I just dont see where the expected improvement comes from. He doesnt have the physical or mental reslience, presence or game to build a flag winning forward line around. That said if we were to bite the bullet this year there will be a couple of stand out tall forwards available at this years draft.

I guess the question is are we or could we become a better side and better functioning forward line without him. He does attract the best defender but how often like yesterday does his opponent mark everything almost unopposed. Max is averaging 1.92 goals per game, if he doesnt mark the ball he is a complete liability, his kicking on goal is 50/50, he offers zero forward pressure, he leads once and is gassed, he is too often out positioned and has lead the team and coaches to be too focussed with bombing long it to his location (thats not all his fault).

If we were to find a player who can hold his own in a contest and give a lot more defensively to hold the ball in the F50, I think as a forward group we would be a lot better off. Ive posted it before but I believe Rowan Marshall would be suited to the role if we could find another ruckman eg Moyle. Have Marshall become a leading forward rather than a stay at home until we find another genuine full forward. People are writing off Hayes because of his knee, but I wouldnt be so quick to let him go I think he offers plenty going forward. As a comparison King is on 900k per year Hayes as a rookie would be lucky to be on 200k. Then we have a developing Isaac Keeler who IMO is a natural forward, who is good in the air and on the ground. I know he is being played in defence this year but I see that as part of his development.

I also understand if we lose Battle we may get a 1st round compo in any event. If as Stav has mentioned we are also looking to offload Howard, then losing two key defenders from a solid defensive unit is a big ask. Any Howard replacement is going to be a basically an untried full back, so to lose Battle as well would be a big hit. I understand we have Shoenmaker coming through as a possible Battle replacement and we are also developing Keeler. Hopefully Van Es can get going again next year and can show he has a future as a key defender.

Look at Sydney they are flying atm playing 3 x B grade tall forwards who all contribute rather than one supposed star. Collingwood won a flag last year with Mihocek and Cox as their talls. In reality Cox is a better value player than King because he is a useful ruckman plus he chases and tackles well for a big bloke - he has a presence. How many clubs have won flags EVER playing a full forward who is so limited and flawed. Who would back King to kick a match winning goal when required?

I guess what Im trying to justify is in the short term losing King will hurt, but long term if we have hits with our recruiting I think we will much better off moving Max on. He may go on to have good career else where, but getting 2 x early 1st round picks (plus) would set our club up for years ahead. My player movement preference would be to keep Battle, have him play full back, Shoenmakers CHB and move on Howard and King.

Ive previously stated good teams dont lose key players which is still my belief, I just doubt King is the key player he should be or will become that player. He never looks happy or excited when playing, nor does he inspire his team mates around him like he should.

Trading max king l would set the club back another ten years

 

[Verdun66]

i quoted a bunch of posts and it took up a lot of room. So I’ll just give another long answer.

Re Mission pre game - suspect he is toeing the line. The club and all journos thought it was a done deal the night we beat the pies - I saw sos that night and he was telling a few of us it’s sorted. It was 6 years. Big offer.

Not sure I’ve ever heard a club say a player is gone mid season - but it has gone so far backwards from that night that internally no one is marking him down for 2025 in saints colours right now.

You only need to be guided by Twomey who is adding interested parties by the week now and each week is building up speed to what we all suspect at this point.

So that takes us to compo. It’s based off player age and I believe Battle triggers the most points in their little system as he is 25/26.
Guaranteed salary - he won’t be moving for less money.
Where the deal sits in the top %. This is important - effectively Battle = McKay from last year with all these triggers. The cap increase was only 800k this year. From NEXT SEASON - it goes up $2m.
They are also talking about formalising contract years as a trigger - in which we have 6 on the table.

I can’t for the life of me see why a 26 year old battle turns down a 6 year deal to sign less elsewhere. I can’t see why Battle would turn down 800k to sign less elsewhere.

So you would imagine that if he does choose to leave. It’s 6 years and 800k +. This is his final BIG contract. This is what sets him up for life.

The club have no decision make power here. He is unrestricted and the club shouldn’t be throwing unlimited money for a good not great player.

Now if we have say 4+5 at the draft. We will sort this midfield out once and for all.

What we will then do is look to use our cap space in other ways. There is a blue print running around right now about SOSs body of work. He knows what he is doing - this time he has the support of one of the best recruiters.

We lost 5 games by under 2 kicks. We are 3 games out of the 8. It’s tight margins. So I don’t believe anyone is thinking rebuild. But SOS is a big believer in drafting your big talents and supplementing them with trades and free agency.

I’d move on both Ross and Tim. But only one has 2-3 behind him ready to take over.

Re Ross. He was appointed to give us facts and then correct the course the required amount from there. The fact we have blooded and used so many kids under him is all you need to know.

Sounds good. Timing is right before Tassie gets going. And I think realistic. I do hope we end up with 4 and 5 in the draft. But it means not winning too many games unfortunately. Lots of angst. I’m ok with the long game though. Lots of criticism and microwaving of memberships.

And I can’t remember having so many promising guys at Sandy. If ever. We have a few young players coming through. That heartens me.

 

[crasha301]

Trading max king l would set the club back another ten years

I'm not saying we should but we did pretty well without him for the first part of the season last year.



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[crasha301]

Realistically what would King net us in a trade?

2 x first rounders? 1 top 10 and one in the teens.



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[marcus1232]

Realistically what would King net us in a trade?

2 x first rounders? 1 top 10 and one in the teens.



On CPH2145 using BigFooty.com mobile app

I don't think he would fetch that at the moment.
Which is even more reason for people to stop the talk he is worth far more to us then assets

 

[wolfpac13]

Heard that Battle is going nowhere.. From Battle himself.

Interesting to see what happens.

 

[marcus1232]

Heard that Battle is going nowhere.. From Battle himself.

Interesting to see what happens.

I hope your right

 

[Ilovewindy]

Heard that Battle is going nowhere.. From Battle himself.

Interesting to see what happens.

Yeh should be interesting. Jordan Dawson said the same thing to swans fans before taking off. If we get a frdp compo straight after our potential top 5 pick, I'm taking it easily. End of first round, not taking it. However, not much we can do with him being UFA ahah we will have to cop whatever we get if he leaves

 

[Ilovewindy]

i quoted a bunch of posts and it took up a lot of room. So I’ll just give another long answer.

Re Mission pre game - suspect he is toeing the line. The club and all journos thought it was a done deal the night we beat the pies - I saw sos that night and he was telling a few of us it’s sorted. It was 6 years. Big offer.

Not sure I’ve ever heard a club say a player is gone mid season - but it has gone so far backwards from that night that internally no one is marking him down for 2025 in saints colours right now.

You only need to be guided by Twomey who is adding interested parties by the week now and each week is building up speed to what we all suspect at this point.

So that takes us to compo. It’s based off player age and I believe Battle triggers the most points in their little system as he is 25/26.
Guaranteed salary - he won’t be moving for less money.
Where the deal sits in the top %. This is important - effectively Battle = McKay from last year with all these triggers. The cap increase was only 800k this year. From NEXT SEASON - it goes up $2m.
They are also talking about formalising contract years as a trigger - in which we have 6 on the table.

I can’t for the life of me see why a 26 year old battle turns down a 6 year deal to sign less elsewhere. I can’t see why Battle would turn down 800k to sign less elsewhere.

So you would imagine that if he does choose to leave. It’s 6 years and 800k +. This is his final BIG contract. This is what sets him up for life.

The club have no decision make power here. He is unrestricted and the club shouldn’t be throwing unlimited money for a good not great player.

Now if we have say 4+5 at the draft. We will sort this midfield out once and for all.

What we will then do is look to use our cap space in other ways. There is a blue print running around right now about SOSs body of work. He knows what he is doing - this time he has the support of one of the best recruiters.

We lost 5 games by under 2 kicks. We are 3 games out of the 8. It’s tight margins. So I don’t believe anyone is thinking rebuild. But SOS is a big believer in drafting your big talents and supplementing them with trades and free agency.

I’d move on both Ross and Tim. But only one has 2-3 behind him ready to take over.

Re Ross. He was appointed to give us facts and then correct the course the required amount from there. The fact we have blooded and used so many kids under him is all you need to know.

****en love this analogy. And agree with all of it as well. As much as I'd hate to see him play for someone else, fixing our midfield is our absolute number 1 priority and if we get another top 5 pick then it is worth losing battle. Ideally, getting Smith and Draper is what we need (assuming we don't finish low enough to get Smillie or O'Sull). We so desperately need purely midfield talent. Windhager will be solid for us, Garcia could be a steal for us, also Wilson (still unsure about becoming a full-time mid but has insane potential), but we need top of the class mids and Draper and Jagga are different to eachother, but also different to any mids we have.

 

[Imtellingya]

****en love this analogy. And agree with all of it as well. As much as I'd hate to see him play for someone else, fixing our midfield is our absolute number 1 priority and if we get another top 5 pick then it is worth losing battle. Ideally, getting Smith and Draper is what we need (assuming we don't finish low enough to get Smillie or O'Sull). We so desperately need purely midfield talent. Windhager will be solid for us, Garcia could be a steal for us, also Wilson (still unsure about becoming a full-time mid but has insane potential), but we need top of the class mids and Draper and Jagga are different to eachother, but also different to any mids

Don’t forget we have Max Hall to factor in as a mid as well. He is only 22.

 

[Yawkey way]

I understand this is going to upset a lot but I think its a move the club should seriously consider!

Looking ahead I am becoming more convinced while he has high trade value we should look to move on from Max King. Some might believe Max is a once in a generation key forward but I beg to differ - at present he is just potential. I know he is still only 23yo but his game is so flawed I just dont see where the expected improvement comes from. He doesnt have the physical or mental reslience, presence or game to build a flag winning forward line around. That said if we were to bite the bullet this year there will be a couple of stand out tall forwards available at this years draft.

I guess the question is are we or could we become a better side and better functioning forward line without him. He does attract the best defender but how often like yesterday does his opponent mark everything almost unopposed. Max is averaging 1.92 goals per game, if he doesnt mark the ball he is a complete liability, his kicking on goal is 50/50, he offers zero forward pressure, he leads once and is gassed, he is too often out positioned and has lead the team and coaches to be too focussed with bombing long it to his location (thats not all his fault).

If we were to find a player who can hold his own in a contest and give a lot more defensively to hold the ball in the F50, I think as a forward group we would be a lot better off. Ive posted it before but I believe Rowan Marshall would be suited to the role if we could find another ruckman eg Moyle. Have Marshall become a leading forward rather than a stay at home until we find another genuine full forward. People are writing off Hayes because of his knee, but I wouldnt be so quick to let him go I think he offers plenty going forward. As a comparison King is on 900k per year Hayes as a rookie would be lucky to be on 200k. Then we have a developing Isaac Keeler who IMO is a natural forward, who is good in the air and on the ground. I know he is being played in defence this year but I see that as part of his development.

I also understand if we lose Battle we may get a 1st round compo in any event. If as Stav has mentioned we are also looking to offload Howard, then losing two key defenders from a solid defensive unit is a big ask. Any Howard replacement is going to be a basically an untried full back, so to lose Battle as well would be a big hit. I understand we have Shoenmaker coming through as a possible Battle replacement and we are also developing Keeler. Hopefully Van Es can get going again next year and can show he has a future as a key defender.

Look at Sydney they are flying atm playing 3 x B grade tall forwards who all contribute rather than one supposed star. Collingwood won a flag last year with Mihocek and Cox as their talls. In reality Cox is a better value player than King because he is a useful ruckman plus he chases and tackles well for a big bloke - he has a presence. How many clubs have won flags EVER playing a full forward who is so limited and flawed. Who would back King to kick a match winning goal when required?

I guess what Im trying to justify is in the short term losing King will hurt, but long term if we have hits with our recruiting I think we will much better off moving Max on. He may go on to have good career else where, but getting 2 x early 1st round picks (plus) would set our club up for years ahead. My player movement preference would be to keep Battle, have him play full back, Shoenmakers CHB and move on Howard and King.

Ive previously stated good teams dont lose key players which is still my belief, I just doubt King is the key player he should be or will become that player. He never looks happy or excited when playing, nor does he inspire his team mates around him like he should.

I had a long ramble written out but decided to spare everyone.

Basically it would be hard to replace kings current production let alone what he might become with the picks we’d get. Battle may still be moved forward if Membrey moves on and Shoenmaker will still find his way into the team if he keeps producing at sandy. Lastly we look like we’ll have the picks for the mids we need due to our poor form, no need to sacrifice anyone.

So it’s a no from me, ming stays and hopefully gets the coaching and support he needs to be the superstar we’d all love to see.

 

[Joffaboy]

We have a small window to fix the midfield with top end talent before Tassie comes in and compromises the draft.
If we can get band 1 for Battle and we have say 4 and 5, we'll, as much as I love Josh, we just have to fix the midfield.

If we languish mid field to 2027, we won't be competitive again until the mid 30's, that would be 2 decades in the wilderness.

If we can purchase a frdp I would do that as well.

I don't understand Stav's thing about North and Trainor. They have no.1 pick, why the need to trade that down to get him, just use pick 1 if they are that desperate.


On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

I don't think he would fetch that at the moment.
Which is even more reason for people to stop the talk he is worth far more to us then assets

of course he would, ridiculous

 

[marcus1232]

of course he would, ridiculous

Agree to Disagree.
not without us giving something back aswell.

 

[Yawkey way]

We have a small window to fix the midfield with top end talent before Tassie comes in and compromises the draft.
If we can get band 1 for Battle and we have say 4 and 5, we'll, as much as I love Josh, we just have to fix the midfield.

If we languish mid field to 2027, we won't be competitive again until the mid 30's, that would be 2 decades in the wilderness.

If we can purchase a frdp I would do that as well.

I don't understand Stav's thing about North and Trainor. They have no.1 pick, why the need to trade that down to get him, just use pick 1 if they are that desperate.


On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

Happy to keep him and take 1 early first to the draft but it’s out of our hands and it sounds like we’ve made him a very good offer.

Trainor to North seems the obvious call, maybe they think there’s a few in front of him and they can get some extras by trading pick 1. Good luck is all I can say if that’s their plan, unless they also hold pick two that’s a big risk.

 

[gringo2011]

If our mids keep bombing it in the way they have been and we go small. Teams are going to set records every week for intercept marks on us

You don’t bomb them on smalls. You have to get them on leads or grub them in.

 

[Yawkey way]

Agree to Disagree.
not without us giving something back aswell.

I think you’d have a decent queue at 2 first rounders. No matter how impatient posters might have become the football world rates him and he still has 10 years left.

 

[gringo2011]

Yeh should be interesting. Jordan Dawson said the same thing to swans fans before taking off. If we get a frdp compo straight after our potential top 5 pick, I'm taking it easily. End of first round, not taking it. However, not much we can do with him being UFA ahah we will have to cop whatever we get if he leaves

Brendan Goddard told me he was staying at the Saints too.

 

[Yawkey way]

You don’t bomb them on smalls. You have to get them on leads or grub them in.

Bombing is ok so long as you have a default and know you’ll get a contest. We’ve had very poor delivery into the forward 50 and that continued for a fair part of yesterday’s game. If you have shallow entry’s they’ll be picked off all day if you’re set up expecting it deep.

Higgins had a few good moments yesterday and butler coming on added a bit as well.

 

[littlecreatures]

I think you’d have a decent queue at 2 first rounders. No matter how impatient posters might have become the football world rates him and he still has 10 years left.

We’re too inpatient, disillusioned and stuck in a perpetuating cycle of pay it forward failure if we’re thinking of trading our best KPF for 2 first rounders.

As noted already, we really lack talent around that 23-25 age cohort, can’t afford to cut it more particularly with Battle potentially leaving.

 

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

I love battle, but if we can get a top 5 pick and draft a top end midfield talent then it's a no brainer. Our backline is our strongest area by far, we should definitely be trading backline talent for midfield talent right now. No point having the best backline in the comp if you can't kick a score.

IF battle is happy to go, IF we finish closer to the bottom, IF we get a 1st rounder right after our pick, IF there will be top end midfield talent available... then only an idiot would not be happy with that outcome.

As for King... I don't think we need him to be a good team, though it would take some incredible balls to make that call. He's definitely going to kick a lot of goals in his career, and the draft is a lottery. Could get another clark and coff... clark is good but that would be a massive failure.

Many factors to consider, but none of them change the fact that we need top end midfield talent more than anything

 

[gringo2011]

We have a small window to fix the midfield with top end talent before Tassie comes in and compromises the draft.
If we can get band 1 for Battle and we have say 4 and 5, we'll, as much as I love Josh, we just have to fix the midfield.

If we languish mid field to 2027, we won't be competitive again until the mid 30's, that would be 2 decades in the wilderness.

If we can purchase a frdp I would do that as well.

I don't understand Stav's thing about North and Trainor. They have no.1 pick, why the need to trade that down to get him, just use pick 1 if they are that desperate.


On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

Because they don’t want to pay pick one for a guy rated 3 to 8 kind of range I guess. Pick one should get a top 5 pick and something extra. I’m not convinced there is that much difference between Smillie and Smith that I’d burn an extra pick to get hold of it.

 

[Yawkey way]

Because they don’t want to pay pick one for a guy rated 3 to 8 kind of range I guess. Pick one should get a top 5 pick and something extra. I’m not convinced there is that much difference between Smillie and Smith that I’d burn an extra pick to get hold of it.

I’ve watched a fair bit of both the carnival matches so far and although it’s early I’m pretty unimpressed. Let’s hope the vic teams are stacked which suits us better anyway.

 

[gringo2011]

I love battle, but if we can get a top 5 pick and draft a top end midfield talent then it's a no brainer. Our backline is our strongest area by far, we should definitely be trading backline talent for midfield talent right now. No point having the best backline in the comp if you can't kick a score.

IF battle is happy to go, IF we finish closer to the bottom, IF we get a 1st rounder right after our pick, IF there will be top end midfield talent available... then only an idiot would not be happy with that outcome.

As for King... I don't think we need him to be a good team, though it would take some incredible balls to make that call. He's definitely going to kick a lot of goals in his career, and the draft is a lottery. Could get another clark and coff... clark is good but that would be a massive failure.

Many factors to consider, but none of them change the fact that we need top end midfield talent more than anything

King we’d be crazy to cash in even for two high picks. This isn’t an outstanding draft.

Battle should get an offer of $800k x 6. That’s fair. If he walks that’s on him. Don’t do it thinking that we’re doing it for pick 6 or something though. The AFL disguised a priority pick for North. We’ll get a pick at the end of the first round. Might still get a decent player

 

[Miha]

Did we give up our second rounder but gain Adelaide’s?