List Mgmt. 2022 Trade & List Management Thread

[ferball]

We are the only club that saw fit to swap first rounders and death ride a side that was one year away from finishing 1st.

If by 'no one' you mean bigfooty and media pundits, then sure. But our club needs to be better than that.

It seems you are just looking for something to be concerned about.

We didn't swap pick 8 for pick 18, we swapped for pick 9, which became 13 after bids and some shonky compo deals. But its still pretty close to where we were anyway. Who cares that the whole thing was done and dusted a season before the other side won a flag. The worst thing is we enabled them to get a flag but we haven't come out of it poorly. All our dealing with Melbourne have left us better off imo.

The good thing about that swap was its part of a process that enabled us to recruit a block of 11 players in 13 months. Two thirds of them look like hundred+ game players on what they have shown so far. That is a great thing in a rebuild.

You can choose to look at it as evidence of some failure because the Dees won a flag after the deal had finished and focus on that as the as the most important aspect of it or you can choose to look at what benefit it gave us as the most important bit instead. Its up to you.

 

[The acurate one]

yeah well the TT one pisses me off and the McDonald pick, both we really got zero advantage out of.

 

[Themanbun]

It seems you are just looking for something to be concerned about.

If that's what you think then let's not drag this on any further. IMO it's highly relevant for a rebuilding side to be able to identify the markers of imminent success, and I don't think I'm alone in thinking we got out of jail from a bad decision, but let's leave it there.

 

[ferball]

If that's what you think then let's not drag this on any further. I don't think I'm alone in thinking we got out of jail from a bad decision but let's leave it there.

Do you really think Melbourne could have played finals in 2020 without covid?

Also, why are you only focusing on a potential and unlikely worst case scenario while completely ignoring the benefits of it?

Sometimes you have to make gambles to improve your position. That one paid off.

All of this criticism of our list management over the last three years ignores anything they may have got right.

If the world was part of a completely rational universe I wouldn't give a **** about all this negativity. But it isn't. Supporters negativity has an effect on sporting teams that operates by some mechanism science hasn't worked out how to measure yet. All of this negative bullshit is making our prospects worse and contributing to our problems. Don't buy into it.

You don't have to be all rainbows and unicorns about where we are, just be balanced about it. Nothing is perfect but the bad sides of our list management since 2019 are far outweighed by the good ones .

 

[hilly]

yeah well the TT one pisses me off and the McDonald pick, both we really got zero advantage out of.

The only thing that annoys me about the TT one is what we did with our R1 pick.

Shouldn't have matched the LMac bid. Not sure what we would have done with the pick though, not the greatest draft.

 

[Kangaroos techno]

Goldy's been your whipping boy since you got here. Its like KT with LT.

It can't be taken seriously.

Am i wrong? No. The stats back up my assertions and more and more of this board are coming on board with it. Take away the romance people on this board have and the desire to see players finish up as a 1 club player = they'd see it too.

LT always put in and loved north. Completely different. KT hated LT because he's an umpire simp.

 

[hilly]

Do you really think Melbourne could have played finals in 2020 without covid?

Why not, they only missed by two points.

 

[ferball]

The only thing that annoys me about the TT one is what we did with our R1 pick.

Shouldn't have matched the LMac bid. Not sure what we would have done with the pick though, not the greatest draft.

We had pick 11. So we could have had Sheed, Ben Lennon or Patrick Cripps who went 11, 12 and 13. Don't think any F/S or compo picks ****ed it up.

 

[Themanbun]

Do you really think Melbourne could have played finals in 2020 without covid?

Also, why are you only focusing on a potential and unlikely worst case scenario while completely ignoring the benefits of it?

Sometimes you have to make gambles to improve your position. That one paid off.

All of this criticism of our list management over the last three years ignores anything they may have got right.

If the world was part of a completely rational universe I wouldn't give a fu** about all this negativity. But it isn't. Supporters negativity has an effect on sporting teams that operates by some mechanism science hasn't worked out how to measure yet. All of this negative bullshit is making our prospects worse and contributing to our problems. Don't buy into it.

You don't have to be all rainbows and unicorns about where we are, just be balanced about it. Nothing is perfect but the bad sides of our list management since 2019 are far outweighed by the good ones .

Hey, I asked to drop it but that's cool. I'll respond reasonably.

"Do you really think Melbourne could have played finals in 2020 without COVID?"

I'm not sure what the point of that question is, but they barely missed. Collingwood score one less point in one match and it's a couple per cent difference.

The fact of the matter is that one game after Melbourne's finish in 2020 that saw us snare pick whatever it was after we death rode them, they commenced a body of work that saw them finish top of the ladder. That is way too close for comfort and has me concerned that we are unable to identify markers of imminent success. If we had have told our team in 2019 that Melbourne would win the flag in 2021 (but leave them in mystery as to their 2020 ladder position), I reckon there's no chance they make that pick swap deal.

While I don't expect the average Bigfooty pundit to know when a team is about to explode, I do expect our team to have a general gauge that a team they're willing to death ride for a first round swap is about to make a steady run up the ladder. Yes, hindsight is 20/20. Strong clubs have good foresight, though.

As I said, I reckon we got out of jail. Tom Powell is a great pickup, although there's still a lot to play out.

"All of this criticism of our list management over the last three years ignores anything they may have got right."

I've been pretty positive towards how they've managed Aaron Hall and retaining him on the list even when it looked like he was cooked, how they have persisted with Curtis Taylor even when I thought he'd regressed. The Stevo trade was good business. Will Phillips is a pick I'm rapt we took even though we're midfield heavy. I've echoed this throughout many threads. I even came to Noble's defence the other day when people who share views with me as to where we are at criticised him for looking at positives in the press conference. I even try to temper expectations when people seem to suggest that 5 gamers like Perez are imminently about to solve our rebound issues. I'm of the opinion they won't for a while yet but I'm cool with playing them for that experience.

Having said that, you can expect negativity when there is apparent regression in a rebuilding side (I know you and a few others don't think it is regression - agree to disagree there) and when we are, to put it plainly, as putrid a football side as I have ever seen. Negativity comes when people don't have many positives to cling to. Negativity is what brought the change with Brad Scott (which most view as a positive, including myself). Negativity caused Richmond's internal review. Negativity caused Melbourne's internal review.

Sometimes negativity is warranted mate. It sucks because we all want this side to perform to the best of its abilities. We're all North supporters and the vast majority of us want our team to do well. People have different appetites for bottoming out, sure, but you only need look at the attitude and sentiment here in the last half of last year, where we still lost a lot but played some good footy compared to now, to see that it might not be an appetite for bottoming out that's fomenting negativity here but the way in which we are losing at the moment which is sucking hope out of supporters.

I hope you can respect my position. I get the feeling you see me as a hysterical doomsayer but please rest assured that I just want the best for this club.

 

[The acurate one]

The only thing that annoys me about the TT one is what we did with our R1 pick.

Shouldn't have matched the LMac bid. Not sure what we would have done with the pick though, not the greatest draft.

Yeah would have been good if we could have turned either into an added bonus. So not suggesting both but just one of them.

Oh well.

 

[ferball]

Why not, they only missed by two points.

They were pretty average, only beat two sides in the eight, lost to sides near the bottom, might have just scraped in. Even so its still a a two pick drop off in the middle of the first round of a stronger draft with an extra second and third rounder.

 

[ferball]

Hey, I asked to drop it but that's cool. I'll respond reasonably.

"Do you really think Melbourne could have played finals in 2020 without COVID?"

I'm not sure what the point of that question is, but they barely missed. Collingwood score one less point in one match and it's a couple per cent difference.

The fact of the matter is that one game after Melbourne's finish in 2020 that saw us snare pick whatever it was after we death rode them, they commenced a body of work that saw them finish top of the ladder. That is way too close for comfort and has me concerned that we are unable to identify markers of imminent success. If we had have told our team in 2019 that Melbourne would win the flag in 2021 (but leave them in mystery as to their 2020 ladder position), I reckon there's no chance they make that pick swap deal.

While I don't expect the average Bigfooty pundit to know when a team is about to explode, I do expect our team to have a general gauge that a team they're willing to death ride for a first round swap is about to make a steady run up the ladder. Yes, hindsight is 20/20. Strong clubs have good foresight, though.

As I said, I reckon we got out of jail. Tom Powell is a great pickup, although there's still a lot to play out.

"All of this criticism of our list management over the last three years ignores anything they may have got right."

I've been pretty positive towards how they've managed Aaron Hall and retaining him on the list even when it looked like he was cooked, how they have persisted with Curtis Taylor even when I thought he'd regressed. The Stevo trade was good business. Will Phillips is a pick I'm rapt we took even though we're midfield heavy. I've echoed this throughout many threads. I even came to Noble's defence the other day when people who share views with me as to where we are at criticised him for looking at positives in the press conference. I even try to temper expectations when people seem to suggest that 5 gamers like Perez are imminently about to solve our rebound issues. I'm of the opinion they won't for a while yet but I'm cool with playing them for that experience.

Having said that, you can expect negativity when there is apparent regression in a rebuilding side (I know you and a few others don't think it is regression - agree to disagree there) and when we are, to put it plainly, as putrid a football side as I have ever seen. Negativity comes when people don't have many positives to cling to. Negativity is what brought the change with Brad Scott (which most view as a positive, including myself). Negativity caused Richmond's internal review. Negativity caused Melbourne's internal review.

Sometimes negativity is warranted mate. It sucks because we all want this side to perform to the best of its abilities. We're all North supporters and the vast majority of us want our team to do well. People have different appetites for bottoming out, sure, but you only need look at the attitude and sentiment here in the last half of last year, where we still lost a lot but played some good footy compared to now, to see that it might not be an appetite for bottoming out that's fomenting negativity here but the way in which we are losing at the moment which is sucking hope out of supporters.

I hope you can respect my position. I get the feeling you see me as a hysterical doomsayer but please rest assured that I just want the best for this club.

I do respect your opinion. And thanks for responding. You're someone who is worth engaging with on this topic.

Between 2019 and 2020 seasons Melbourne picked up Ed Langdon as well as Jackson, Pickett and Rivers in the draft. That was a huge list upgrade right there. Petracca got fit as well. Honestly, who saw that coming? I genuinely thought he was another Paul Ahern type. Cotent to get a kick and get fat on an AFL wage. That's enough of a change in their list that all of those players were crucial in winning them that flag that year even if they weren't that great on GF day itself.

Its like us in 2018. Who saw Jed Anderson becoming a gun, JZ a 40 goal forward and Maj a dominant intercepting backman after we drafted LDU ( outside of a few supporters and maybe a few people in the club itself?) We were expected to be bottom four again.

I get what you are saying about identifying future trends and what's needed for success but those changes are huge and most of them were dependent on stuff that happened after the pick swap so they aren't necessarily something anyone could foresee at the time. Maybe at the end of 2020 if you'd been following them closely you'd have picked it. Langdon, Rivers, a fit Petracca and Jackson were all crucial to how Melbourne played and so was Pickett, tho more just cos he's an electric small forward rather than for structural and ball movement reasons.

And honestly from our POV that isn't necessarily a consideration. Or shouldn't be. Because we used that trade as part of a process that has given us a very good position in terms of this rebuild. And even more honestly if all three of those 2019 draftees reach their ceilings and Powell does for us as well then that whole thing will be a resounding success. IMO anyway.

Having said that, you can expect negativity when there is apparent regression in a rebuilding side (I know you and a few others don't think it is regression - agree to disagree there) and when we are, to put it plainly, as putrid a football side as I have ever seen...
Sometimes negativity is warranted mate. It sucks because we all want this side to perform to the best of its abilities. We're all North supporters and the vast majority of us want our team to do well.

I do get it okay. But I reckon we were worse in 2020 and most of 2021.

WE have some issues I agree. For me its skills. STILL!!!! After ****en years.

And softness. Not being switched on at the start of games or fighting it out.

Both those things are very frustrating. One cos its an obvious thing we need to fix and the other cos its just not who we are.

But last year i thought we turned it over in their forward line alot more than we are this year. So even that is a small improvement.

 

[archereleven]

yeah well the TT one pisses me off and the McDonald pick, both we really got zero advantage out of.

McDonald was the highest father/son ever taken at the time immsmc

flipping Simmo.

On SM-G991B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[giantroo]

 

[Shinboner1]

Lets be honest. He'd be mad to leave brisbane now unless its for the Swans, Freo or Melbourne. Even then ... If I was him I'd do what my name tells me and McStay.

If a side like essendon or Collingwood offer him a decent contract I think he'd go. Will be on peanuts right now at Brisbane.
I'm talking 600k+ here.

 

[King Corey]

Posted this in the McGuinness thread but it's probably more appropriate here. It's re: the first round pick swap with Melbourne.

My main concern with the trade is we obviously didn't rate Melbourne. They finished higher than we expected the following year, and were a mere 12 months away from dominating the comp and winning the flag (and us receiving pick 18 in exchange).

While the prospect of us cutting it so close we nearly traded pick 8 for pick 18 is bad, what worries me more is that the club hadn't just not identified Melbourne were about to explode on the comp, but thought they were stagnant or on the way down. Rebuilding sides need to be able to know when success is imminent.

That is an excellent point.

I've already said - Melbourne came to us with the trade. We had always been frustrated nobody wanted to trade with the collateral we had each draft period and seemed excited at the deal. I wondered if we were thrilled to just be able to do a deal.

That's not speculation.

 

[ferball]

If a side like essendon or Collingwood offer him a decent contract I think he'd go. Will be on peanuts right now at Brisbane.
I'm talking 600k+ here.

Personally I'd rather stay for a shot a flag. Or at least winning a final.

 

[Makeshift Park]

Personally I'd rather stay for a shot a flag. Or at least winning a final.

I’d go with the one which will fund me a nice big seafaring yacht that allows me to spend the rest of my days sailing from port to port looking for adventure

 

[My Left Foote]

Shouldn't have matched the LMac bid. Not sure what we would have done with the pick though, not the greatest draft.

Agree shouldn't have matched the bid. We were right in to Cripps, whether we would have actually picked him is another thing, but I know we were keen on him.

 

[Le Grille]

Agree shouldn't have matched the bid. We were right in to Cripps, whether we would have actually picked him is another thing, but I know we were keen on him.

I love your handle

But, LMac was an ok pick, I wonder if Simmo obviously knowing the club had a bit on intel on lmac coming up and probably how locked in we were to him

 

[King Corey]

If that's what you think then let's not drag this on any further. IMO it's highly relevant for a rebuilding side to be able to identify the markers of imminent success, and I don't think I'm alone in thinking we got out of jail from a bad decision, but let's leave it there.

Your premise was crystal clear to me mate. It wasn't the moving parts of the trade you were focusing on, it was our misreading of where the football clubs were moving relative to each other.

We almost shorted a stock as it started to boom.

 

[Themanbun]

Your premise was crystal clear to me mate. It wasn't the moving parts of the trade you were focusing on, it was our misreading of where the football clubs were moving relative to each other.

We almost shorted a stock as it started to boom.

Great analogy.

 

[King Corey]

Agree shouldn't have matched the bid. We were right in to Cripps, whether we would have actually picked him is another thing, but I know we were keen on him.

There was a comprehensive article a while back that we'd got roped into a deal with Luke's manager in his underage (or maybe underage underage) year to sign him.

It's hardly like that would've been a secret in the industry.

We showed our hand so other clubs knew that had us over a barrel with a bid.

Hawthorn come to mind as a club who tend to give off a very disinterested vibe towards their father-sons and NGA prospects to keep bluff bidders wary.

 

[Harris 10]

In our 90+ year history we’ve had maybe 5 players play 300 games.
Come year end Goldy is going to finish on around 295 games that’s if he doesn’t get injured or we miss finals

I really want him to play 300, I think he deserves it.

Tough decisions coming up in the off season.

 

[Le Grille]

In our 90+ year history we’ve had maybe 5 players play 300 games.
Come year end Goldy is going to finish on around 295 games that’s if he doesn’t get injured or we miss finals

I really want him to play 300, I think he deserves it.

Tough decisions coming up in the off season.

Goldy will deserve it if form warrants.

Sure he’s been a great servant of the club but I wouldn’t want the club nursing him to 300 just out of some perceived obligation.

He’s afl standard now, and with x injured he can revert to his natural position but if he could find a way to modify his game to deal with x or ccj being main ruck then yeah he will piss 300 in.