List Mgmt. 2020 Draft (December 9) discussion thread

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Our currently owned picks:

24 - Blake Coleman
43 - Harry Sharp
48 - Henry Smith

Our currently owned 2021 picks:

1st (MEL), 1st (BRI), 3rd (WCE), 3rd (BRI), 4th (MEL), 4th (COL), 5th (BRI)
 
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pulpdriver said:
Has Robbo expressed what he intends to do post footy? Obviously has his own options but wonder if he would consider doing something with media or welfare with the club?
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Mitch has said player agent in one of his podcasts

I reckon he’d be brilliant with helping manage wayward behaviour. No problem demonstrating that he too has made mistakes, and he knows exactly how to help player brand rehabilitation.
 
On young Harry. I’m super excited. I’ve coached runners for 23 years and only ever have one crack the ten minute 3k. He was awesome but not in harry’s league.

The two ‘adrenaline junkie’ running events are cross country (1st) then steeple.

Steeple requires a big leap, balance and pace control and acceleration out of the obstacles. I’d be scratching my head if we ever drafted a pure runner, but this is going to be interesting. Teach him how to catch, bounce and how to hold off to create a gap, then get our contested ball champions to feed it to him. Lol He’ll end up in front of the goals not knowing what to do.

I watched loads of swans games when Lewis Jetta was at his peak running, and I’ll be going to reserves games next year just to watch Harry. Going to be fun.
 
Gadzorks said:
On young Harry. I’m super excited. I’ve coached runners for 23 years and only ever have one crack the ten minute 3k. He was awesome but not in harry’s league.

The two ‘adrenaline junkie’ running events are cross country (1st) then steeple.

Steeple requires a big leap, balance and pace control and acceleration out of the obstacles. I’d be scratching my head if we ever drafted a pure runner, but this is going to be interesting. Teach him how to catch, bounce and how to hold off to create a gap, then get our contested ball champions to feed it to him. Lol He’ll end up in front of the goals not knowing what to do.

I watched loads of swans games when Lewis Jetta was at his peak running, and I’ll be going to reserves games next year just to watch Harry. Going to be fun.
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Additionally with both Irish guys being lightning off the mark the dynamic of that team will be very interesting and fun to watch. It should be fast break football.
 

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Also, on our list management style.

Our game plan is a low risk style. We play a reasonable rigid structure with clearly defined roles. Players do take risks, but as many players have said, when you take the risk you better nail it or you’ll have a chat with the coach during your next rotation.

We put our risk into our list management. We go for players that have a massive upswing if we get it right, and we back ourselves to develop/repair the player to their upmost potential.

In this period, our top 22 have been protected and retained so low risk and our trades and draft all have been high risk in one way or another.

I think you have to take risks to get to the very top, and I’m comfortable with the way we manage ours. I shudder at the memory of trades like the Fev one, where the risk dominated everything.
 
briztoon said:
What am I wrong about?

I haven’t read one person slate the kids we drafted?

I haven’t read anyone say we could have drafted better.

There were rumours for more than two weeks that the Pies were going to bid on Coleman.

Twomey wrote about it in one of his articles, and we started discussing it here.


If you have genuine intelligence that a rival club is potentially going to bid on your player, you have options. Try and get ahead of the bid (at a price we were not willing to pay) or move picks back and in to the future.

My criticism is we didn’t get any future value on pick 25. Didn’t have to be a future second round pick. There were always going to be multiple late picks available, that were going to move up the draft order after other bids were matched in this draft.
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One of first posts I read after draft finished was how it added to a already bad off season.
As for the future pick we had to do it to get back into the early 40s as this draft was different to others with only 54 picks in the end used, so had to have some versatility.
One final point those picks we have now for 2021 won't be the exact one's we use, we can always trade / swap picks and improve even further. Still plenty of water to go under the bridge. I think we're are in a good position moving forward.
 
Gadzorks said:
Mitch has said player agent in one of his podcasts

I reckon he’d be brilliant with helping manage wayward behaviour. No problem demonstrating that he too has made mistakes, and he knows exactly how to help player brand rehabilitation.
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Can imagine him making a very good agent but think he could absolutely excel in a club welfare role.
 
I think the Club did the best they could with the picks they ended up having on the night.
You can debate the merits of what eventuated to what they could have done to get a better result.
This is probably why trades take so long. Some thing fall into place others don't during some frantic phone calls

Imagine the draft haul for the Lions in 2020 if we had to give up 18 & 19 + for Joe Daniher during the trade period.

Getting Daniher for nothing but salary cap space was a big win but one that still comes with some risk.
It was a blessing that Essendon did not match his contract as the Giants did with Jeremy Cameron to Geelong. (13,15,20 less 2 future 2nd bask to GWS)
 
Was it an optimal draft? No. But we'd already quit on this draft when we traded our firsts to Melbourne, which tells me the scouts weren't too impressed with the pool anyway. So I'm not really fussed if it was suboptimal. We still got Blake Coleman who is supposed to be even better than Keidean was at the same age, a couple of project players that can take their time to develop, a pick in next year's draft which is supposed to be much better, and the big one, Joe Daniher. I'm excited and happy with our offseason overall.
 
Section 5 said:
I think the Club did the best they could with the picks they ended up having on the night.
You can debate the merits of what eventuated to what they could have done to get a better result.
This is probably why trades take so long. Some thing fall into place others don't during some frantic phone calls

Imagine the draft haul for the Lions in 2020 if we had to give up 18 & 19 + for Joe Daniher during the trade period.

Getting Daniher for nothing but salary cap space was a big win but one that still comes with some risk.
It was a blessing that Essendon did not match his contract as the Giants did with Jeremy Cameron to Geelong. (13,15,20 less 2 future 2nd bask to GWS)
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The only thing that I can safely assume would have been a different outcome if we had to trade for Daniher would have been that we wouldn’t have had Melbournes first rounder next year.
We would have still got later picks in, we would have still traded Withoand got later picks in return.
So we would have well and truly had enough points to match a bid for Coleman and there is a small possibility we may have also ended up with Sharp and Smith with later picks.

The fact that we were able to get Melbournes first next year makes it an overall win for us IMO.

There were 2 things that I think we missed out on Draft night.

1 the early bid on Coleman was unfortunate and the trade up into the early 40’s in my opinion was for Jack Carroll and we missed out on him too because Carlton snagged him 2 picks earlier.

Other than that, I think the whole Trade and Draft period was a success because I think our best 22 next year will be better than this year.
 
spotthedog1 said:
I'm not sure I can see how you've arrived at that. I've tried to look a the entire offseason (FA, trade and draft) and think we got Daniher, which is boom or bust, and then other than that, we went backwards a bit, but in a way that won't really affect our current list. I certainly don't see any way of suggesting that we've refreshed our list.

Can you provide your rationale for this? Mine is here:

List Mgmt. - 2020 Draft (December 9) discussion thread

Our currently owned picks: 24 - Blake Coleman 43 - Harry Sharp 48 - Henry Smith Our currently owned 2021 picks: 1st (MEL), 1st (BRI), 3rd (WCE), 3rd (BRI), 4th (MEL), 4th (COL), 5th (BRI)
www.bigfooty.com www.bigfooty.com
Click to expand...

Easy for us, "If your glass is half full, just fill the other half and find a driving buddy" type people.


In a Covid year we had to reduce numbers more than normal - we could have done that is such a way like Collingwood telling their players they other players didn't like them. We didn't, we treated our guys with dignity and helped some on their way to new clubs. They still like us as a club. We didn't loose anyone we didn't want to, well no top 22 although you might argue Steph be again we helped him. Thats a win, again look at Collingwood and the Bombers and GWS. Its a major win, we maintained brand, our ethos, our integrity and acted with professionalism

Then for the reasons I put, we traded well to fix some issues immediately given our 'premiership window' is open a flapping in the breeze. No kid in the draft with the picks we had and traded away was going to plug those holes.

given what we had we drafted with a strategic view of a couple of year ahead when some retirements will be happening.

I know some supporters want to run around like chicken Little and scream the sky is falling, the sky is falling - Not me, I went early with the "Lid Off Or On" debate and we rose to finished 2nd. This year I'm bullish again, I think we can win the dam thing and that the way I'll be walking into the Gabba for every match.
 
Dlions said:
the trade up into the early 40’s in my opinion was for Jack Carroll and we missed out on him too because Carlton snagged him 2 picks earlier.
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The obvious reason for the trade was to jump a few spots at the cost of an irrelevant pick, given Essendon were looking to trade down - we gave up 49 and 50, but our later pick ended up coming in to 48 anyway.

I'm curious as to why you think we were targeting Carroll specifically, beyond Carroll having a higher rating than that spot? I wasn't aware of anything linking us to him prior to the draft. If that was the intent we could've also talked to Richmond and offered them a second deal to take the Samson Ryan pick, given the delay inherent with picking, trading, matching, and picking again - remember we paid substantial overs last year to get the Dev Robertson pick in the same scenario.
 
We a
Dylan12 said:
I don't agree with either of these points. I am assuming you are referring to Nakia Cockatoo for the first point. He's played 2-3 games in 3 years. I wouldn't be so generous as to say we addressed our wing as "best we can" given it is a highly speculative trade that there is a fair chance it will result similarly to another Xavier Clarke type trade. If it works, brilliant, but if we wanted certainty, we would've looked elsewhere.

As for your 10 out of 10 as a club, again assuming you are referring to just the on-field side of things, I doubt a lot of players would've been too happy with Alex's treatment given he had 2 years on his contract. I'd say that would impact the culture as it would reiterate to any player on the list that the club doesn't value their contract and irrespective would be happy to move them on at anytime. If that's the case, don't be surprised when players up and leave mid contract citing similar reasons. Lastly, and I'm not suggesting they are like for like replacements, but you've pushed out one of the nicest and most professional guys at the club and league in Stef Martin for a pretty average one and by his own admission, unprofessional at times, in Joe Daniher.

That's not even close to a 10 out of 10 even on the on-field side. Then factor in the off-field side, losing Noble and Griffith and its even worse.
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ll know Dylan your favourite attention grabbing thing is to sit in the corner crying "poor bugger me" while slowly trying to slash your wrested with a blunt bread and butter knife.

There is not a single shred of evidence the Witho was treated poorly. The whole time it was going on he was away with the boys and their girlfriends and is continuing to joke and comment of all their posts and them on his. He was not looking at regular senior games next year but he is now - thats called a win win.

Yes be depressive on Cockatoo, but I'm looking at McArthy from the same club with similar injury history and backing our medical team in a warmer climate. No one can solve this until we see him on the park. I just a positive person, your something else.

Steph wasn't pushed not was he badly treated. To me he got his superannuation pay out. He is an intelligent man, I'd say Steph knew through his manager the bulldogs were interested. Steph knowing Oscar had taken over would have had a chat with **** and said, hey look, I got a chance to make some extra cash and get back to Melbourne with my missus. Lets play the media game and open the door for me?. Fagan, like with Hinge, in a Covid year would have, like the father figure he is, said sure, lets see what comes up you have been great for us and if you get an extra year we will help.

Just bloody great player and list management.
 
Brizzys Squizzy said:
One of first posts I read after draft finished was how it added to a already bad off season.
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But that’s not criticising the kids we drafted, but rather someone’s opinion of our off season as a whole.

As for the future pick we had to do it to get back into the early 40s as this draft was different to others with only 54 picks in the end used, so had to have some versatility.
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We didn’t need to get back in to the 40’s. That’s half my point. We could have had the last 6 picks in the draft, picks 50 to 55, and it would have only taken the first 3 of those picks to match the bid on Coleman.

Even if at the time they were later picks, we still would have had enough points to cover the bid.

Some of us discussed this before the draft. Just trade out all our early picks into the future, and take 6 late picks to match the Coleman bid, and pick up any sliders we rated.

And we still could have drafted a young ruck, as only two were taken in the draft.

And then there was every possibility that Harry Sharp was still on board with the last pick of the draft.

One final point those picks we have now for 2021 won't be the exact one's we use, we can always trade / swap picks and improve even further. Still plenty of water to go under the bridge. I think we're are in a good position moving forward.
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I’ve not criticised our future pick holdings, and I’m pretty well aware of most possibilities for our future picks.
 
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dlanod said:
The obvious reason for the trade was to jump a few spots at the cost of an irrelevant pick, given Essendon were looking to trade down - we gave up 49 and 50, but our later pick ended up coming in to 48 anyway.

I'm curious as to why you think we were targeting Carroll specifically, beyond Carroll having a higher rating than that spot? I wasn't aware of anything linking us to him prior to the draft. If that was the intent we could've also talked to Richmond and offered them a second deal to take the Samson Ryan pick, given the delay inherent with picking, trading, matching, and picking again - remember we paid substantial overs last year to get the Dev Robertson pick in the same scenario.
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The Deven Robertson Scenario last year is completely unrelated but similarly we had them both much much higher on our board than where they were taken.
 
Section 5 said:
I think the Club did the best they could with the picks they ended up having on the night.
You can debate the merits of what eventuated to what they could have done to get a better result.
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As briztoon said yesterday, the club knew Coleman would be bid on, so instead of losing that second round pick, it should've really traded it out for a pick next year as there were clubs willing to strike such deals. In no way would we have not been able to draft Coleman with later picks or possibly Sharp and Smith, so it was disappointing to lose that leverage of trading out that second round pick for a corresponding pick next year.
 
Dlions said:
The Deven Robertson Scenario last year is completely unrelated but similarly we had them both much much higher on our board than where they were taken.
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I know a few Lions fans rated Carrol, but I’m not sure anyone knows where our recruiters rated him.
 
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dlanod said:
I'm curious as to why you think we were targeting Carroll specifically, beyond Carroll having a higher rating than that spot? I wasn't aware of anything linking us to him prior to the draft.
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Cal Twomey said we were interested in his phantom draft, but he also said St Kilda were interested and they made no attempt to get him. So who knows if that was correct.
 
Dylan12 said:
I don't agree with either of these points. I am assuming you are referring to Nakia Cockatoo for the first point. He's played 2-3 games in 3 years. I wouldn't be so generous as to say we addressed our wing as "best we can" given it is a highly speculative trade that there is a fair chance it will result similarly to another Xavier Clarke type trade. If it works, brilliant, but if we wanted certainty, we would've looked elsewhere.

As for your 10 out of 10 as a club, again assuming you are referring to just the on-field side of things, I doubt a lot of players would've been too happy with Alex's treatment given he had 2 years on his contract. I'd say that would impact the culture as it would reiterate to any player on the list that the club doesn't value their contract and irrespective would be happy to move them on at anytime. If that's the case, don't be surprised when players up and leave mid contract citing similar reasons. Lastly, and I'm not suggesting they are like for like replacements, but you've pushed out one of the nicest and most professional guys at the club and league in Stef Martin for a pretty average one and by his own admission, unprofessional at times, in Joe Daniher.

That's not even close to a 10 out of 10 even on the on-field side. Then factor in the off-field side, losing Noble and Griffith and its even worse.
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Do agree, with some of the above, that the bar has been set with Witho and slightly different aspect with Noble, who sought an opportunity. Whilst it would appear Witho was on reasonably good money, the club obtaining Daniher, Andrews contract and pending contract upgrades for a few players, probably resulted in the club, being keen to move on Witho. I agree that it does now allow players such as Ely, Payne and Answerth (particularly the two backs) if still waiting behind Birchall and Lester and or Adams, to seek opportunities at the end of next season. Very confident the three named would find AFL opportunities at other clubs, and two of them are not Qld'ers.
Going to be an interesting 2021,I feel if Daniher does not fire in the first half of the season, we probably finish around 4th, 5th or 6th, (will be interstate travel next year), that means we lose a few games, and we should then be exposing the likes of Ely, and further developing, Coleman, Fullerton, Payne etc, etc. Most of our young players in 2020, only got games because of suspensions or injuries. If young guys given a chance in 2021, who is likely to be the better player in 2022 McStay or Fullerton?, Adams/Lester or Payne?
 
Clarkythelion said:
Easy for us, "If your glass is half full, just fill the other half and find a driving buddy" type people.


In a Covid year we had to reduce numbers more than normal - we could have done that is such a way like Collingwood telling their players they other players didn't like them. We didn't, we treated our guys with dignity and helped some on their way to new clubs. They still like us as a club. We didn't loose anyone we didn't want to, well no top 22 although you might argue Steph be again we helped him. Thats a win, again look at Collingwood and the Bombers and GWS. Its a major win, we maintained brand, our ethos, our integrity and acted with professionalism

Then for the reasons I put, we traded well to fix some issues immediately given our 'premiership window' is open a flapping in the breeze. No kid in the draft with the picks we had and traded away was going to plug those holes.

given what we had we drafted with a strategic view of a couple of year ahead when some retirements will be happening.

I know some supporters want to run around like chicken Little and scream the sky is falling, the sky is falling - Not me, I went early with the "Lid Off Or On" debate and we rose to finished 2nd. This year I'm bullish again, I think we can win the dam thing and that the way I'll be walking into the Gabba for every match.
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I like most, if not virtually all of your post 'Clarkythelion' I understand your optimism, but I think a lot depends on Daniher, and our midfield improving slightly. I say that, as it would appear our players will have to travel (like any other normal H&A comp:) and poster more qualified than me, might have an explanation, but our midfield was outclassed in the Prelim:
If Daniher fires, Starc, Rayner, Bailey, Big O, Clug continue to improve, and the team is picked on merit each week (so Coleman, Payne, maybe Fullerton, possibly Ely, Robertson are given an opportunity), then I am also bullish. Otherwise I can see somewhere around 4th,5th or 6th at the end of the H&A season.
 
Johnny Bananas said:
Cal Twomey said we were interested in his phantom draft, but he also said St Kilda were interested and they made no attempt to get him. So who knows if that was correct.
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Yeah, Twomey said we had interest in him in two or three of his articles in the last month. I assumed we were chasing Carroll as well.
 
Ralphy2017 said:
I like most, if not virtually all of your post 'Clarkythelion' I understand your optimism, but I think a lot depends on Daniher, and our midfield improving slightly. I say that, as it would appear our players will have to travel (like any other normal H&A comp:) and poster more qualified than me, might have an explanation, but our midfield was outclassed in the Prelim:
If Daniher fires, Starc, Rayner, Bailey, Big O, Clug continue to improve, and the team is picked on merit each week (so Coleman, Payne, maybe Fullerton, possibly Ely, Robertson are given an opportunity), then I am also bullish. Otherwise I can see somewhere around 4th,5th or 6th at the end of the H&A season.
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Are you saying that the team isn’t picked on merit each week? Your continuous push to gift players a game is pretty funny.

if the 5 players you named above had shown enough they’d be getting games.
 
Brett C said:
Are you saying that the team isn’t picked on merit each week? Your continuous push to gift players a game is pretty funny.

if the 5 players you named above had shown enough they’d be getting games.
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There are many examples in sport (and life) where for a plethora of reasons, a person is overlooked. Only my humble opinion, however I do believe one minor criticism of Fages and co is the cautious approach to team selection, I understand when pushing for a top 4 spot it is safer to go with the senior player, and we finished 2nd the past two years, so your premise has merit. It is however fact that most if not all the young guys who played in 2020, got selected because of suspensions or injuries to the regular 22-24.
I believe, if Fullerton is given chances in 2021, who will be the better player in 2022/2023. If Payne can gain some further AFL exposure in 2021, who will be the better player in 2022/2023? If Coleman can get games in 2021, who will be the better player in 2022/2023. Don't gift games that would be stupid, however considering the ressies apparently play the same style as the first, we should be a strong enough team to select the odd young guy, this would no doubt assist in determining if they have it or not. To keep developing the list and also to remain extremely competitive, when young players are training the house down, and playing well in the match sims, then depending on the opposition, I would go with youth. Otherwise we might end up in a couple of years like 2005, 2006 etc. Admittedly the newly proposed VFL comp will be extremely beneficial for youth development, much better than the 2019 NEAFL comp, so I might not be as funny next year.
 
2020 Daniher and Cockatoo into a side that played a prelim.
2019 CEY, Ah Chee and Birchall all played in Prelim
2018 Neale, Lyons, Adams and McCarthy. Only Adams not played the Prelim and you assume he would if not injured.
2017 Charlie and Hodge (retired)
That be 10 players traded into 22. since 2017 draft

2017 Draft players in the prelim 4 out of 5 drafted.
Rayner, Bailey, Starc, Payne.. Only Wooler misses out
So 14 of the players where not on the list 2016.
yes Adams, Cockatoo and Daniher need to get on the park

The interesting thing is the kids from 2018 and 2019 drafts.
No one seen NEAFL games as they replaced with scratch matches. So where are they at.
Same as kids in Vic etc COVID stuffed up a year of playing.. So we pushed late firsts into next year took Coleman and some development players
As the kids in 2018 and 2019 drafts I assume we know are almost ready
2018/2019 Draftees who got games.
Answerth, (9), Coleman (5) , Berry(6), Fullarton (2) and Dev 1 game.
So where are E Smith, B Smith, Joyce, Prior, Madden and McFayden(Knee) at?
Fullarton got games then injured.What happened to Dev after his game?
We do not know the coaches do
 
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briztoon said:
Anyone read the Collingwood draft article yet?

Want to know if there bid on Coleman is mentioned, and what trade was kyboshed by the AFL.
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The Coleman is mentioned to have happened, nothing else.

The "blocked" trade by the AFL was because Collingwood needed a future fourth from GWS to finalise their future first trade, which they got.

What I found interesting was that the recruiters rely heavily on player managers to work out whether another club will take a player they're interested in, and how to work their strategy around that.
 

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List Mgmt. 2020 Draft (December 9) discussion thread

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