Which club do you think will be pushing for a flag first - Adelaide, Hawthorn or Sydney?

[Mr Meow]

I am not saying the academies have not been helpful, they have, but I am objecting to the notion that these academy players are "free" which is heavily implied a lot on bigfooty.

What happens is say Sydney have an academy player we really want who is expected to go lets say pick 3, and we have pick 10. What Sydney would do is trade pick 10 for picks 16 and 19.

Then trade pick 16 for picks 26 and 30

Trade 19 for 29 and 38

So now Sydney have picks 26, 29, 30 and 38 when the bid happens, and people on this board jump up and down and talk about all the "junk" picks we used for such a great player, ignoring the fact we used pick 10 to get those junk picks.

But that wasn't my point. It wasn't me saying academies are unfair or provide free players. That was another poster. It was me saying a side disputing the notion that "how many flags have clubs with academies won?" was the way to reply to that.

Sydney have been a strong club for a while now - so any aspect - drafting/development/game plan/coaching, that gets them contending could be deemed as a win. They have been good enough to win it in 2014, 2016 and 2022 but had poor grand final days, that's all.

 

[Mr Meow]

To be fair, when I created this thread back in 2020 all three clubs were at a similar level. It would be a dumb question to ask now, but at the time it made a lot of sense.

Correct. And Sydney have quite obviously been pushing for a flag first. They don't have to actually take home the cup for that to be true. It would be different if their best finish was 8th or something.

 

[bloodsbigot]

McDonald, McLean, Amartey, McCartin too.

McDonald was by far the swans best academy graduate. The advantages we get are pretty unfair.

 

[RUNVS]

But that wasn't my point. It wasn't me saying academies are unfair or provide free players. That was another poster. It was me saying a side disputing the notion that "how many flags have clubs with academies won?" was the way to reply to that.

Sydney have been a strong club for a while now - so any aspect - drafting/development/game plan/coaching, that gets them contending could be deemed as a win. They have been good enough to win it in 2014, 2016 and 2022 but had poor grand final days, that's all.

Yes, but ultimately we play for flags. I get no satisfaction out of Sydney deserving to win the flag in 2016. I can't take a moral win even if the umpires definitely had an effect on the game. As for 2014 and 2022, we deserved to lose those and I am taking no satisfaction from making the Grand Final when we clearly were not good enough to be there.

 

[JackOutback]

I am not saying the academies have not been helpful, they have, but I am objecting to the notion that these academy players are "free" which is heavily implied a lot on bigfooty.

What happens is say Sydney have an academy player we really want who is expected to go lets say pick 3, and we have pick 10. What Sydney would do is trade pick 10 for picks 16 and 19.

Then trade pick 16 for picks 26 and 30

Trade 19 for 29 and 38

So now Sydney have picks 26, 29, 30 and 38 when the bid happens, and people on this board jump up and down and talk about all the "junk" picks we used for such a great player, ignoring the fact we used pick 10 to get those junk picks.

But that's not how it works, is it? You don't trade pick 10 for junk picks and then use all of them on the player as if you're using pick 10, otherwise why even bother. You trade down to get behind the bid, have enough junk picks to pay and snare an extra pick or a player in trade. You're getting something for free by gaming the system.

I don't blame you, the AFL let it happen, but there needs to be a way to ensure clubs pay closer to fair value than they are now.

 

[RUNVS]

But that's not how it works, is it? You don't trade pick 10 for junk picks and then use all of them on the player as if you're using pick 10, otherwise why even bother. You trade down to get behind the bid, have enough junk picks to pay and snare an extra pick or a player in trade. You're getting something for free by gaming the system.

I don't blame you, the AFL let it happen, but there needs to be a way to ensure clubs pay closer to fair value than they are now.

It still is not free though as we are using real draft picks to pick up these players.

I am not saying it is completely fair value, but it is far from free.

I just hate the suggestion that they were free, or Swans got them for nothing and do not deserve having them there. We drafted them at the expense of other players because we used real draft picks on these academy players.

 

[Mr Meow]

Yes, but ultimately we play for flags. I get no satisfaction out of Sydney deserving to win the flag in 2016. I can't take a moral win even if the umpires definitely had an effect on the game. As for 2014 and 2022, we deserved to lose those and I am taking no satisfaction from making the Grand Final when we clearly were not good enough to be there.

Yeah but again my point wasn't whether you are happy or not. I wasn't saying that grand final losers should jump up and down for joy. Simply that their strategy has very much had them in contention and if they played better in the last game they could have won it.

Much like you can argue Geelong's home ground advantage gets them enough wins to be contending. That didn't just become true in 2022 because they won the flag. They were knocking on the door for near enough a decade before that.

And Sydney were favourites in 2014. They just bottled it on the day. This didn't invalidate their list build to that point. They came up against a much stronger team, on their home ground, compared to let's say 2005. It doesn't make that 2005 list stronger.

You seem to be arguing that, as per thread title, a side is only pushing for a flag when they win one. This would mean there is only one contender each season and we find out who they are at the end of grand final day.

 

[bloodsbigot]

Yeah but again my point wasn't whether you are happy or not. I wasn't saying that grand final losers should jump up and down for joy. Simply that their strategy has very much had them in contention and if they played better in the last game they could have won it.

Much like you can argue Geelong's home ground advantage gets them enough wins to be contending. That didn't just become true in 2022 because they won the flag. They were knocking on the door for near enough a decade before that.

And Sydney were favourites in 2014. They just bottled it on the day. This didn't invalidate their list build to that point. They came up against a much stronger team, on their home ground, compared to let's say 2005. It doesn't make that 2005 list stronger.

Geelong should have a lower salary cap.

 

[Mr Meow]

Geelong should have a lower salary cap.

If you capped how many times players could go to the bench (like the interchange cap) you would also reduce the amount of free agents that it pulls in.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

You're taking the piss yeah?

No, I’m not taking the piss.

7 of your best 22, Academy picks.

 

[RUNVS]

No, I’m not taking the piss.

7 of your best 22, Academy picks.

How many of those are first rounders though?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

How many of those are first rounders though?

I don’t know, maybe five?

 

[RUNVS]

I don’t know, maybe five?

Heeney, Mills, Blakey and Campbell.

Heeney was drafted under a different system but we paid pretty good draft capital for the other three.

4 out of 23 isn't that much, especially since like I said we did not get them for free no matter what some on bigfooty would like everyone to believe.

 

[Taper]

Geelong has Cotton on, Carlton has pokey sub leases, nmfc pay SEN to hire Sheezel as a commentator.

It is not the role of the Northern Clubs to hothouse Vic talent for lazy Vic Clubs.

Get over it.

Imagine if we had exclusive access to the Geelong Falcons as our academy.
That's the equivalent of NSW and QLD clubs having academies they have exclusive access to.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Imagine if we had exclusive access to the Geelong Falcons as our academy.
That's the equivalent of NSW and QLD clubs having academies they have exclusive access to.

You effectively do.

 

[Taper]

You effectively do.

If that were true then Charlie Curnow would be playing for us, as we would have got him in 2015 via the academy.
Falcons players are available for all clubs to draft, not our fault other clubs overlook them eg. Gryan Miers was pick 57 and overlooked by 17 other clubs.

 

[RUNVS]

Imagine if we had exclusive access to the Geelong Falcons as our academy.
That's the equivalent of NSW and QLD clubs having academies they have exclusive access to.

Yes, because NSW has historically produced as many quality players year on year as the Geelong Falcons

 

[Freomaniac]

NSW and QLD clubs have academies they have exclusive access to under the guise of 'growing the game' which has led to the draft becoming compromised every year.

Well... here is the thing my humble cats fan....

tell me how many players have been picked up in the last 8-10 years in the QAFL.

Then compare that to how many blokes picked up in the Geelong Falcons.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Heeney, Mills, Blakey and Campbell.

Heeney was drafted under a different system but we paid pretty good draft capital for the other three.

4 out of 23 isn't that much, especially since like I said we did not get them for free no matter what some on bigfooty would like everyone to believe.

Gulden came almost free too.

 

[.Shotties.]

7 of your best 22, Academy picks.

Blakey, Gulden (2nd Round), Heeney, Mills, Wicks (Literally not selected in 2 National Drafts and a Rookie draft), Campbell.

6 / 22 from NSW and the academy. Four from the pointy end of the draft. Not amazing when you compare to traditional footy states, but you do the best with what you have access to.

 

[.Shotties.]

Imagine if we had exclusive access to the Geelong Falcons as our academy.
That's the equivalent of NSW and QLD clubs having academies they have exclusive access to.

No it isn't. Imagine you having access to the country area outside Newcastle, NSW's Mid-North Coast and the Shoalhaven with almost no elite football pathways in place. That's what Sydney's academies are equivalent to, not the Victorian surf coast where football is the top sport and there are decades-old talent pathways .

Imagine trying to claim that Cardiff is equivalent to the Falcons in terms of football production and talent.

 

[RUNVS]

Gulden came almost free too.

Gulden was taken at pick 32 or something like that. Sydney had very few points left, if Hawthorn bid on him with their first pick that year he would be in Brown and Gold right now.