What do you want out of season 24?

[McIvor]

A great positive that would come out of not making finals is we would get a full pre season in, IIRC we trained for 2 weeks pre Christmas for this season, starting 5 weeks earlier would make a hell of a difference.

Plus while we are at it make the whole of pre Christmas about endurance training, get out the runners boys. Also while minimal improvement is possible with speed we need to work on that as well.

IMO we will definitely be still in the window for a top 4 spot in 2025, possible side, predicting Zorks retires.

Brandon Starcevich, Jack Payne, Conor McKenna.
Darcy Wilmot, Harris Andrews(C), Tom Doedee.

Henry Smith, Lachie Neale, Josh Dunkley.
Will Ashcroft, Hugh McCluggage, Jarrod Berry.

Charlie Cameron, Joe Daniher, Linc McCarthy.
Cam Rayner, Eric Hipwood, Kai Lohmann.

Keidean Coleman, Levi Ashcroft, Jaspa Fletcher, Zac Bailey.


Sub options- Noah Answerth, Bruce Reville, Shadeau Brain, James Tunstill, Harry Sharp, Reece Torrent, Logan Morris.

I feel bad leaving out Froggy as he has been great but IMO Doedee is an upgrade, maybe Froggy for Starcevich or a bench spot for Fletcher??
____________________________
Unfortunately this does hardly anything for our lack of leg speed, please take a speedy player in the mid season draft recruiters... I just watched this guys highlights package again WOW! .... come on down Frank Szekely,

Malice; on Dodee I think your expectations are way too high. Not many have come back from three ACL’s and really done much thereafter.

We’ve obviously had our fair share of multiple ACL players from Garner and Bartlett who never played a game to Sam Skinner who played less than a handful. As I’ve said before on here, I genuinely think we’ll lucky to get 20-30 games out of Tom for his entire career and even then I think that is even unlikely.

If we then go with the fact that say guys off one like Rich, Hippy and Cam, who only did one, all were extremely and understandably quiet that following year.

There’s also countless examples of other players that have done two plus ACLs and again none have sadly amounted to much. I personally think Doedee is a bust now.

On top of that with Kiddy and Will also coming back from them, having three players coming back from ACLs at the same time who all will be super cautious isn’t going to be great and any expectation they get back to 23 levels immediately is a fallacy.

 

[martinson]

Malice; on Dodee I think your expectations are way too high. Not many have come back from three ACL’s and really done much thereafter.

We’ve obviously had our fair share of multiple ACL players from Garner and Bartlett who never played a game to Sam Skinner who played less than a handful. As I’ve said before on here, I genuinely think we’ll lucky to get 20-30 games out of Tom for his entire career and even then I think that is even unlikely.

If we then go with the fact that say guys off one like Rich, Hippy and Cam, who only did one, all were extremely and understandably quiet that following year.

There’s also countless examples of other players that have done two plus ACLs and again none have sadly amounted to much. I personally think Doedee is a bust now.

On top of that with Kiddy and Will also coming back from them, having three players coming back from ACLs at the same time who all will be super cautious isn’t going to be great and any expectation they get back to 23 levels immediately is a fallacy.

Been saying the same thing McIvor.

Anyone hanging their hat on our ACL guys being what they were at least for a while is deluded.

As for Doedee I really feel for him ,it must be devastating but I'd be surprised if we ever got anything significant out of him.

I saw people saying our outs were just as significant as the Giants . So they had out the best player in the game ,the best defender and one of the best mids and we had a second year player with an acl , Kiddy who to be fair is a significant out but not playing anytime soon and someone else who's never played for us on his third acl. Whatever.

 

[briztoon]

Can we get some mid with speed to slot in from the Mid Season draft.
Need some list pruning end of the year. Teams going for speed and overlap.

Very, very unlikely.

 

[KissKiss]

Malice; on Dodee I think your expectations are way too high. Not many have come back from three ACL’s and really done much thereafter.

We’ve obviously had our fair share of multiple ACL players from Garner and Bartlett who never played a game to Sam Skinner who played less than a handful. As I’ve said before on here, I genuinely think we’ll lucky to get 20-30 games out of Tom for his entire career and even then I think that is even unlikely.

If we then go with the fact that say guys off one like Rich, Hippy and Cam, who only did one, all were extremely and understandably quiet that following year.

There’s also countless examples of other players that have done two plus ACLs and again none have sadly amounted to much. I personally think Doedee is a bust now.

On top of that with Kiddy and Will also coming back from them, having three players coming back from ACLs at the same time who all will be super cautious isn’t going to be great and any expectation they get back to 23 levels immediately is a fallacy.

Will should hopefully be ok by 25. He'll have had a few games this year and then a full pre-season to make sure he is feeling fine. Kiddy I expect will take till mid-year at best to start playing at that top level again. It will be interesting as I've always been concerned about his fitness and ability to run out games. Will he be able to come back fitter than he was

Doedee I have no expectations on especially after so many ACLs. I suspect he will be a big trade blunder for us. Anything beyond that is a bonus to me at this stage.

As for the rest of this year, I think I am around to this year needing to be a mini-reset. It might not be a full tank, but we need to have a full re-look at the game plan and change things up to see if some of the fringe players can actually step up in key roles

Its also more appropriate in the Fagan thread but I think a full review of the coaching setup needs to happen. Need to look hard over the year at what we have and if we can bring in some fresh thinking. Really there should be some aspiring coaches who look at where Fagan and the team are at, and see an opportunity at a future senior gig.

 

[M Malice]

I saw people saying our outs were just as significant as the Giants . So they had out the best player in the game ,the best defender and one of the best mids and we had a second year player with an acl , Kiddy who to be fair is a significant out but not playing anytime soon and someone else who's never played for us on his third acl. Whatever.

I am one of those "people" and to be fair to me we also had Oscar McInerney and Zac Bailey out.

 

[martinson]

I am one of those "people" and to be fair to me we also had Oscar McInerney and Zac Bailey out.

I forgot about them.

 

[jumbojet]

I’d like to see them balance out the squad. Cut the slackers look at the upcoming talent and give some of the VFL kids a go. Not as emergencies but a real go to see if they can exist with the big boys if not keep them as VFL fill and move on.You don’t need to try them all in the one game but you do need to give them a go to show their skills at this higher level. Stop trying to make forwards into midfielders backs into forwards wings into half forwards etc it’s not working. I know we are banking on draft pics next year but is it possible our number one choice may choose footy squad and another team over family ties. Finally we need new ideas let’s start to refresh the footy department in all areas. New blood new ideas new enthusiasm. Having attended the thrashing in prelim against Geelong at The MCG in 2022 (I Think ) our woes have been exposed for some time. Let’s keep the faith and the forum strong to push for a refresh.

 

[On the quiet]

Malice; on Dodee I think your expectations are way too high. Not many have come back from three ACL’s and really done much thereafter.

We’ve obviously had our fair share of multiple ACL players from Garner and Bartlett who never played a game to Sam Skinner who played less than a handful. As I’ve said before on here, I genuinely think we’ll lucky to get 20-30 games out of Tom for his entire career and even then I think that is even unlikely.

If we then go with the fact that say guys off one like Rich, Hippy and Cam, who only did one, all were extremely and understandably quiet that following year.

There’s also countless examples of other players that have done two plus ACLs and again none have sadly amounted to much. I personally think Doedee is a bust now.

On top of that with Kiddy and Will also coming back from them, having three players coming back from ACLs at the same time who all will be super cautious isn’t going to be great and any expectation they get back to 23 levels immediately is a fallacy.

I hope you are wrong not just for Doedee, but for us, as I believe Tom has another 3 years and reportedly on pretty decent coin

 

[Gadzorks]

Cannot abide with people calling our beloved athletes disgusting/lazy ... As seen on X.

So, I have a text book called foundations of sport and exercise psychology which has an entire chapter on burnout and overtraining.

It states that by far the most frequent factor (>50%) of burnout is due to psychological concerns. Such as unfulfilled (Grand final anyone?) or inappropriate expectations. Emphasis on ranking. Lack of enjoyment characterized by coach and external pressure.

I never got an athlete to international level, but I did the courses and was lucky to listen to many of them talk about their experiences.

Athletes typically take three months off after world titles. By off - they stay active and fit but they spend three months away from the sport to prevent burn out. After the Olympics with it's insane pressure they can and do take longer.

Finals shortens that break, and has done for five years.

During the break our guys continue to hang out together, go on holidays together, live together and they don't get that total break. And it's been the same year after year. Except for Joe and those with kids maybe.

They are not refreshing.

They are burnt out.

They are not lazy, they do want to do better, they want to focus for four quarters but they simply can't.

Abusing them won't help.

They need father fagan back to help them find the love and fun in playing and only then we will see performance improve.

And yes, that will help their kicking accuracy.

 

[Timetoroarlike44]

The top four and flag is done. Finals will be tough.

Before last year i would have said we have to do everything we can to make finals. This year i am not so sure.

This group has a lot of experience in finals. We don't 'need' more. We don't need to tank, but season 2024 should now be all about season 2025.

My to-do list would be:

- Reward on form. Players get dropped if they are not performing for players going well in the 2s. This also exposes some of our 2s talent and gets games under the belt. So valuable to even play 5 games and know what it takes next pre-season.

- It has to be on form but we should be targeting debuts for Henry Smith, Logan Morris, Bruce Reville and Reece Torrent as a minimum.

- Don't run our ageing guns ragged. If Neale is struggling on the ankle, give him time off to get right. Manage Zorko by giving him 2-3 games off. Does Daniher need to ruck this year and risk injury? I think Brandon Ryan could chop out Oscar quite well. Linc can be managed for a game or two.

- This also allows us to actually give players a full hit-out in their preferred position. Dev as a ball-hunting mid for a whole game for example. Bailey as a full-time mid perhaps?

- Get tinkering on the gameplan. Actually start trying some different things and use the season to do it, rather than pre season.

- Get tinkering in matches. Fagan is so conservative on gameday. with the pressure to win the flag gone what could we see? Forward line doing nothing, swap harris with hipwood (if he is playing!). Or Put Oscar one out in the goalsquare for a bit quarter. Whatever, do something. We just seem incapable of mixing things up and seem to be the only club with that inability.

And my bonus of missing the finals would be:

- We are the only side not to miss since 2019. Must be taking a toll.

- That would be helped by ending out season 5 weeks earlier compared to last year, and starting pre-season much earlier

- The draw. A mid 6 rather than top 6 draw would look pretty wild to us i think. Although this might be offset by us being sent off broadway again (hello ballarat / launceston / geelong) where we are just no good.

2025 could become a massive year. Last year of peak Neale / Cameron / Daniher / McCarthy you would think. Fagan would need a big improvement to A be offered a new contract but B wanting to sign one. has has always said he wouldn't hang around. that would be 9 years at the helm at the end of 2025 and his contract would be up.

 

[harvester]

Wilmot into the midfield rotation
Drop Hipwood, Rayner forward
Reville onto the interchange

 

[Timetoroarlike44]

Wilmot into the midfield rotation
Drop Hipwood, Rayner forward
Reville onto the interchange

Wilmot mid has not occurred to me. Think he is so good off half back.

But it's a really interesting idea given his absolute speed to burn.

I would just be happy for things like this to be TRIED.

We are so incredibly stale.

Also Melbourne were really poor for long periods v Richmond. That Melbourne win doesn't look as great right now.

 

[greendiesel]

Do something...anything with Hipwood. Put him in the backline, on the wing, in the seconds.......It doesn't have to be permanent.
“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.” Albert Einstein.

 

[Darren Downunder]

Long time Lurker, first time poster. Like everyone, I was gutted last night by our insipid performance, and I also think we have some serious issues that need to be addressed if we are to contend for a flag. But I’m not giving up hope yet. We showed what we are capable of against Melbourne. We did that without Kiddy and McKenna. These guys haven’t fallen off a cliff in three weeks. The talent is still there.

 

[McIvor]

I hope you are wrong not just for Doedee, but for us, as I believe Tom has another 3 years and reportedly on pretty decent coin

I hope I’m wrong too but just being realistic with how I think this plays out.

 

[McIvor]

Cannot abide with people calling our beloved athletes disgusting/lazy ... As seen on X.

So, I have a text book called foundations of support and exercise psychology which has an entire chapter on burnout and overtraining.

It states that by far the most frequent factor (>50%) of burnout is due to psychological concerns. Such as unfulfilled (Grand final anyone?) or inappropriate expectations. Emphasis on ranking. Lack of enjoyment characterized by coach and external pressure.

I never got an athlete to international level, but I did the courses and was lucky to listen to many of them talk about their experiences.

Athletes typically take three months off after world titles. By off - they stay active and fit but they spend three months away from the sport to prevent burn out. After the Olympics with it's insane pressure they can and do take longer.

Finals shortens that break, and has done for five years.

During the break our guys continue to hang out together, go on holidays together, live together and they don't get that total break. And it's been the same year after year. Except for Joe and those with kids maybe.

They are not refreshing.

They are burnt out.

They are not lazy, they do want to do better, they want to focus for four quarters but they simply can't.

Abusing them won't help.

They need father fagan back to help them find the love and fun in playing and only then we will see performance improve.

And yes, that will help their kicking accuracy.

I personally think the circuit breaker for some, not all, will be leaving the club and looking for a fresh challenge in a new environment, which many millennial sports people do these days. Being a one club player doesn’t seem to have the appeal like it used to and I suspect some may think there best shot at winning a flag isn’t at the Lions given we’ve failed five years running.

 

[Paul Mac]

We were at the Melbourne game and what i viewed from Rayner that night was hopefully what we could see more of moving forward. I'm not that silly to expect him to get 25 disposals each week but pretty sure he averages 13-14 disposals a game. We need to boost that up to 17-18 disposals a game. Did not see any of the game last night as was at the rugby but after the game first thing i checked was his disposals and he had 9 for the game. Does he see time in the reserves to get a couple of weeks of amasing heaps of the footy ( hopefully). Just lost at the moment how teams can constantly kick bags of goals in a row against us without us unable to stop the bleeding.

 

[On the quiet]

I'm starting to think Cam has been mismanaged. No doubt in the first two seasons of 2028,2019 there were times when he deserved a stint in the 2's but likely the club did not want to deal with the media scrutiny of dropping a #1 draft pick.

The ACL did not help, but for all the talent Cam has, and as fit and strong as he looks each preseason, at this stage he is not a fulltime inside mid. We might want to convert him to an inside mid because we feel that is the justified position of a #1 draft pick but Cam is at this stage a dangerous, tackle busting third tall forward.

 

[martinson]

I cheer up when I look at our draw for the next 4 games. We should be winning those.

Sit the guys down and get a plan going starting this week. They all must know last night was a pathetic effort. Fages analyses each portion of the game in his pressers. It's not a matter of being competitive for parts of the game. You should be for the large majority. It's the periods where you don't put in the effort that count. Doesn't matter that you were competitive for a half . In fact the fact that you were is all the more damning for the rest of the effort.

Give them the facts of life ,get a plan of attack going, put it behind us and whoever our leaders might be demand a 4 quarter effort this week and enforce it as far as possible.

 

[MSB ROYS]

Long time Lurker, first time poster. Like everyone, I was gutted last night by our insipid performance, and I also think we have some serious issues that need to be addressed if we are to contend for a flag. But I’m not giving up hope yet. We showed what we are capable of against Melbourne. We did that without Kiddy and McKenna. These guys haven’t fallen off a cliff in three weeks. The talent is still there.

Welcome Darren. Keep on posting!

 

[Gadzorks]

Thinking about overtraining - I wonder how many players response to the Grand final was to get stuck in on their own instead of resting and recuperating.

We know players lost weight, which isn't always great for athletes.

Maybe we are the opposite of unfit, just knackered. The deep, exhaustion that is so hard to recover from.

 

[Scubaveg]

[*]Brain, Reville Morris to be blooded.
[*]Sharp to get an extended run of games.
[*]Levi to nominate us.
[*]Marshall to continue to improve and come to us.
[*]Will to come back after the bye find his feet and finish the season strongly.
[*]Perfect recovery for Kiddy having him ready for 1st day of preseason.
[*]Perfect recovery for Tom having him ready for 1st day of preseason.
[/LIST]



On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Scubaveg]

I cheer up when I look at our draw for the next 4 games. We should be winning those.

Sit the guys down and get a plan going starting this week. They all must know last night was a pathetic effort. Fages analyses each portion of the game in his pressers. It's not a matter of being competitive for parts of the game. You should be for the large majority. It's the periods where you don't put in the effort that count. Doesn't matter that you were competitive for a half . In fact the fact that you were is all the more damning for the rest of the effort.

Give them the facts of life ,get a plan of attack going, put it behind us and whoever our leaders might be demand a 4 quarter effort this week and enforce it as far as possible.

We won't beat the Suns.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[martinson]

We won't beat the Suns.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Not convinced of that.

I'm tipping a really hot effort by us this week.

If we lose this we're getting out of touch with the 8.

I'll be very surprised if we don't win but I've already said that 4 times this year and we've won 2 of them.

 

[Schache_off]

As much as I want to see some new players in the team to get a look at our depth. Our forward line is and our midfield aren't playing to the level that they are capable of. The team needs to get back to playing how they know they can and with confidence and then bring in whoever we want to expose at AFL level.