Autopsy The not even The Bont, Libbas and Jones' heroics can drag us over the line against the cats thread

[Prince Imperial]

A final we led until deep into the last quarter. Until then we'd played Geelong in 2 finals:

• we lost the 1953 prelim to them (after winning our first ever final the week before)
• beat them in the 1954 semi after they finished top and us second (they went out in straight sets)

Since then, from 1976 onwards, it's been a trail of misery in finals against them.

92 QF and PF
94 QF
95 QF
08 PF
09 PF

We also beat them in the 56 semi final despite kicking 5.13.

 

[Munnez]

That's the issue for me. Why review and why overturn the umpires call?

Cats were getting a very good run from the umpires early in the match. The decision against Treloar for insufficient intent was horrendous poor bloke in the middle of a pack under pressure kicks it around corner in straight line from where he was that then dribbles to the the line.
It wasn't like him had time to line up a kick what the hell was he supposed to do differently??

 

[Sharpiesadog]

Cats were getting a very good run from the umpires early in the match. The decision against Treloar for insufficient intent was horrendous poor bloke in the middle of a pack under pressure kicks it around corner in straight line from where he was that then dribbles to the the line.
It wasn't like him had time to line up a kick what the hell was he supposed to do differently??

That was a harsh one.

I don’t think I’ve ever watched a single dogs game where I didn’t think we were getting bent over by the umps. Maybe the odd 1 or 2, but I have come to accept that I am utterly, utterly biased when watching us play.

When I calm down I can usually accept that the umps didn’t cost us the game. I don’t think they did on Saturday. I still think the Stengle call was bs, but then Willy’s blatant push for our last goal was missed, and Westy’s free for high contact was pretty much garbage too.

I am frustrated by our start. I feel like we’ve improved from last year, we’re not far off the top teams. I still feel like we should be doing better though, and the coaching is probably letting us down.

 

[Claudonious]

I'm not going to get that deep into the semantics of exactly what type of ruckman Stanley is. However, relative to English, he is clearly a more physical ruckman, and noticeably imposed himself in the stoppages on Saturday in a way English didn't (or couldn't).



The other poster said this:

Suggesting that Stanley "is a very similar player" to English is simply incorrect.

Ah well...I disagree. Stanley has never been an overly physical player.Some on this board were implying that Stanley was brought in to physically intimidate English. I say they are both not physically imposing players.Stanley is quite mobile,can go forward and kick a goal in much the same way as English can.English is by far the better overall player.

Stanleys advantage over many other ruckman is his mobility - that is by far Tims' greatest strength.

Is Stanley more physical than English? Marginally perhaps. To suggest he was brought into the side to monster English does not make any sense to me.

We won the clearances (both stoppage & centre) and English won most of the stats. I am not questioning that English' lack of physicality has not been an ongoing issue - but it is by far less of an issue when he is up against Stanley.

 

[Golden_6]

Why would the coach put Naughton on Cameron? He’d be carved up by Cameron working up and down the ground.

So not only would Naighton be completely ineffective down back, we’d lose any work he does up forward.

Cameron is very likely the hardest matchup in the league. When you watch him live you realise how difficult he is.

He doesn’t really play as a key forward anymore. He’ll float up to half back and rack up a few easy kicks and then sprint back in the other direction, quite often without an opponent. Teams do usually let him go up the field because he’s not as dangerous racking up kicks in that part of the ground.

The key is making sure you have discipline and structure to pick him up on the way back. Clearly that’s where we struggled and our defenders were caught ball watching and his floated back inside 50. That’s likely an inexperience thing for Buku but at the end of the day there’s a reason why Cameron is a top 5 player in the comp.

 

[Claudonious]

So basically, you don't know what type of player Stanley is either.
The stats show a very clear discrepancy in both marks and uncontested possessions. At the very minimum this shows they are very different types of players and not even remotely similar.

Rhys Stanley has always been a bad mark, useless up forward, useless down back. He does not roam the ground the same way English does, nor does he have an intercept game. Ask any Geelong fan and they will tell you the same thing: he's a solid citizen who plays his role and competes. His playing style is nothing like English's.

Are you looking at 1 match, or career?

Rhys and Tim are almost identical in CP v UP split (the split is more relevant than the total for obvious reasons), similar in goals per game and Tim about a mark per game better.English doesnt play down back.It the difference between useless and good 0.05 of a goal per game over a career? That's all it is.

Stanley and English are similar players - English on his day is the superior player.He is inconsistent however.

 

[geoffjennings79]

We also beat them in the 56 semi final despite kicking 5.13.

Thanks, forgot about 56.

 

[Dogs Rule]

Why would the coach put Naughton on Cameron? He’d be carved up by Cameron working up and down the ground.

So not only would Naighton be completely ineffective down back, we’d lose any work he does up forward.

Why wouldn't he? Who knows, it might create more space in our forward line and it might have kept a leash on Cameron.

 

[Bulldogs85]

both played well in defence

 

[stefoid]

Why wouldn't he? Who knows, it might create more space in our forward line and it might have kept a leash on Cameron.

Id rather Naughton play a similar role to Cameron, TBH. We got a glimpse of what that might be like against west coast. Let the fullback gorrilas compete against English and Darcey in the goal square and set Naughty free,

 

[Bulldogs85]

Coaches Votes

Western Bulldogs v Geelong​

9 Tom Liberatore (WB)
9 Gryan Miers

32

Gryan Miers

Age

25

Ht

179cm

Wt

81kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.4

4star

K

9.1

4star

HB

6.3

4star

M

4.1

4star

T

1.8

4star

G

1.1

4star

D

15.3

4star

K

9.0

4star

HB

6.3

4star

M

4.6

4star

T

1.6

3star

G

0.9

4star

D

14.4

4star

K

8.4

4star

HB

6.0

4star

M

3.8

4star

T

2.2

4star

G

1.2

4star

(GEEL)
5 Marcus Bontempelli

4

Marcus Bontempelli

Age

28

Ht

194cm

Wt

96kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

22.5

5star

K

12.3

5star

HB

10.3

5star

M

3.6

4star

T

4.8

5star

CL

4.4

5star

D

18.4

4star

K

9.7

4star

HB

8.8

4star

M

2.6

3star

T

4.1

5star

CL

4.0

5star

D

12.0

3star

K

5.8

3star

HB

6.2

4star

M

2.0

3star

T

3.8

5star

CL

1.8

4star

(WB)
5 Jeremy Cameron

5

Jeremy Cameron

Age

31

Ht

196cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.5

3star

K

9.0

3star

HB

3.4

3star

M

5.4

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

2.6

5star

D

10.0

3star

K

7.1

3star

HB

2.9

2star

M

4.6

4star

T

2.0

3star

G

1.9

5star

D

8.2

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

3.2

3star

M

4.6

5star

T

2.4

4star

G

2.0

5star

(GEEL)
2 Liam Jones

19

Liam Jones

Age

33

Ht

199cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.4

2star

K

6.5

3star

HB

2.9

3star

M

4.3

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

134.5

2star

D

7.6

2star

K

6.1

3star

HB

1.4

1star

M

4.1

4star

T

1.4

2star

MG

116.3

2star

D

9.4

3star

K

7.4

3star

HB

2.0

2star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.2

4star

(WB)

 

[lachy]

Id rather Naughton play a similar role to Cameron, TBH. We got a glimpse of what that might be like against west coast. Let the fullback gorrilas compete against English and Darcey in the goal square and set Naughty free,

If he is going to become an A grader as a forward, this is the role that would allow the opportunity

 

[Munnez]

That was a harsh one.

I don’t think I’ve ever watched a single dogs game where I didn’t think we were getting bent over by the umps. Maybe the odd 1 or 2, but I have come to accept that I am utterly, utterly biased when watching us play.

When I calm down I can usually accept that the umps didn’t cost us the game. I don’t think they did on Saturday. I still think the Stengle call was bs, but then Willy’s blatant push for our last goal was missed, and Westy’s free for high contact was pretty much garbage too.

I am frustrated by our start. I feel like we’ve improved from last year, we’re not far off the top teams. I still feel like we should be doing better though, and the coaching is probably letting us down.

I agree that it wasn't the umpiring that cost us the match. I just meant early in the match a lot of the 50 / 50 calls were going in favour of the Cats.
Our inability to hold our forward structure in the last quarter let us down badly , often didn't have a forward to kick too so Cats were easily able to defend

 

[Mofra]

Are you looking at 1 match, or career?

Rhys and Tim are almost identical in CP v UP split (the split is more relevant than the total for obvious reasons), similar in goals per game and Tim about a mark per game better.English doesnt play down back.It the difference between useless and good 0.05 of a goal per game over a career? That's all it is.

Stanley and English are similar players - English on his day is the superior player.He is inconsistent however.

Timmy's ability to float back and plug a hole is of massive important to us when we're only really playing 1 KPD and a 'plays above his height' interceptor.
He is also very effective in transition play which is vital to a team pushing a HF up to the stoppage for most of a game.

I think people stuck in the 80s expect a ruck to compete in the centre and do not much else in transition but the majority of clubs don't play that way. Stanley wasn't even a ruck for the first part of his career: St Kilda hoped he'd be a unicorn KPF who was mobile when the ball wasn't in the air. Geelong rolled the dice on his ruckwork and he ended up being a no 1 ruck because they didn't have much else.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Huh?
I'd put Hawkins and Cameron ahead of McKay and Curnow as the best KPF duo in the comp and they have the best defender in the game right now too, and the best HF in the comp.
They're stacked and they're undefeated for a reason.

Yeah, but Bevo!?!?

Yeah Mof. We can't kick back with a refreshing Beveridge. 'S why we're always on edge.


NOTE: Sorry about the board intrusion, Doggies. I just love Bevo's name. 'Scott' is so f*cking boring isn't it? 'Scott no mates'.

Who doesn't like a cool and frothy Beveridge?

 

[Mofra]

Yeah Mof. We can't kick back with a refreshing Beveridge. 'S why we're always on edge.


NOTE: Sorry about the board intrusion, Doggies. I just love Bevo's name. 'Scott' is so f*cking boring isn't it? 'Scott no mates'.

Who doesn't like a cool and frothy Beveridge?

I still remember lining up one game with about 5 or 6 drink-themed players on the team sheet, and we've had some good ones over the journey - Grant, Foster, Toohey, Hahn, Ballantyne etc

To top it all off, Riley Sanders is very Old Fashioned

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I still remember lining up one game with about 5 or 6 drink-themed players on the team sheet, and we've had some good ones over the journey - Grant, Foster, Toohey, Hahn, Ballantyne etc

To top it all off, Riley Sanders is very Old Fashioned

We've got a Tuohy... and two Young Henrys!

 

[Mofra]

We've got a Tuohy... and two Young Henrys!

If you can claim that, Marra's goalkicking gets our fans yelling XXXX!

We also sadly lost one of my 80s favourites (McGuinness) to the Crows first team

 

[stefoid]

well, someone has to mention the tripple Baileys

 

[Doggy Dan]

Because there seems to have been plenty of calls not reviwed and this one seems awfully random to be overturned like it was

Didn’t the exact thing happen with a Witt’s mark on our goal-line 2 weeks ago. I didn’t hear much collective outrage then.

 

[Sentinel]

Didn’t the exact thing happen with a Witt’s mark on our goal-line 2 weeks ago. I didn’t hear much collective outrage then.

Just for some added context, the AFL changed this late last year following the Keays goal/behind fiasco, by bringing in a 2nd ARC 'supervisor' with the ability to tell the umpires to stop and call back play as we saw on Saturday. Prior to that, such an incident would have not been reviewed and overturned.

It's an improvement, just one which didn't go our way this time.

 

[Doggies_13]

The issue with Cameron was not who was on him it was the changeover, we clearly switched who was responsible for him depending on where on the ground he was and the hand over wasn’t cohesive between the players and that’s why he ended up free.

The coaching failure was more so the not shutting down Miers in my opinion, after the first quarter we should have put some time into him.

Our biggest issues are the forward line and defending opposition transition from our forward line, that’s what seemed to hurt us the most against Geelong. We had the chance to win but gave up too many easy goals from transition along with our goals being difficult due to us failing to connect with our forwards and take opportunities

 

[Bulldog in Kiev]

Attended my first game for a while against the cats and I thought the big thing that stood out was forward line efficiency as to why the cats won.
Miers stood out for picking out teammates with precise kicks, whereas we just seemed to kick to contests.
We are not far off the best teams, hopefully we are seeing some early season rust.

 

[Munnez]

Who is replacing Hawkins and Cameron?

Add Stewart to that list he is 31 and father time gets them all in the end

 

[Munnez]

Because there seems to have been plenty of calls not reviwed and this one seems awfully random to be overturned like it was

Absolutely BS no need whatsoever to review what was pretty clear cut and play had already moved on. Evidence was no where near compelling enough to overturn.
Proud of the boys not to give up and keep coming at them. We need to learn to have a bit more composure would make a massive difference