Stats questions

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RedmanWasHere said:
A question for the masses.

With Nick Daicos becoming the first VFL/AFL player born in 2003 to play in a premiership, dating back to 1897, who was the first premiership player per year of birth?
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The complete list (italics for Essendon's last 1897 round robin game):

1865: Charlie Forbes (1897)
1866: Archie Sykes (1897)
1867: nobody
1868: Jim Grace (1898)
1869: Jerry Nolan (1898), Ned Officer, George Vautin, Jim Anderson (1897)
1870: Alec Sloan (1898), Harry Wright, Gus Kearney (1897)
1871: Pat Hickey (1898)
1872: Bill Potter, Stan Reid (1898), Edgar Croft (1897)
1873: Frank Hailwood (1902), Arthur Cleghorn, Pat O'Loughlin (1897)
1874: Mick Grace, Johnny Power, Bill McSpeerin (1898), Joe Groves, Norm Waugh, Ted Kinnear (1897)
1875: Paddy Noonan (1898), George Martin (1897)
1876: Bill Dalton, Jack Dalton, Eddie Drohan, James Robinson, Harry Clarke, Abe McDougall (1898), Maurie Collins, Tod Collins (1897)
1877: Pat Descrimes (1898), Son Barry, George Hastings, George Cochrane (1897)
1878: Fred Fontaine, Chris Kiernan, Bert Sharpe (1898), Hugh Gavin (1897)
1879: Ern Jenkins (1899)
1880: Bill Robinson, Herc Vollugi (1901)
1881: Harold Hay (1900)
1882: Frank Langley (1900)
1883: Bill Walker, Percy Trotter, Percy Sheehan, Joe Johnson (1904)
1884: Jim Addison (1903)
1885: Dick Harris (1907)
1886: Charlie Hammond, Les Beck (1906)
1887: Doug Gillespie (1906)
1888: Ike Little, Alex Lang (1906)
1889: Tom Grimshaw (1909)
1890: Fred Baring, Wally Chambers (1911)
1891: Jack Scobie (1909)
1892: Percy Heron, Charlie Wells (1913)
1893: Artie Harrison (1913)
1894: Athol Sharp (1915)
1895: Gerald Ryan, Harold Robertson, Jack Howell, Ernie Barber (1918)
1896: Tom Lowrie, Teddy Purcell, Bert O'Dee (1916)
1897: Charles Pannam, Tom Drummond (1917)
1898: Harry Saunders (1917)
1899: Bill Twomey (1919)
1900: Ernie Wilson (1919)
1901: Goldie Collins (1922)
1902: Tommy Jenkins (1923)
1903: Tommy Corrigan (1922)
1904: Ken Leahy (1925)
1905: Frank Murphy, Charlie Dibbs (1927)
1906: Reg Hickey (1931)
1907: Herbert White (1926)
1908: Bruce Andrew (1928)
1909: Albert Collier (1927)
1910: Fred Froude (1930)
1911: Les Hardiman (1931)
1912: Doug Strang (1932)
1913: Herbie Matthews (1933)
1914: Marcus Whelan, Albert Pannam (1935)
1915: Phonse Kyne (1935)
1916: Keith Stackpole (1935)
1917: Paul Schmidt, Ken Baxter (1938)
1918: Syd Anderson (1939)
1919: Shane McGrath, Ted Cordner (1941)
1920: Alby Rodda, Harold Ball (1939)
1921: Fred Fanning (1940)
1922: Don Cordner (1941)
1923: Warren Lewis (1941)
1924: Max Oppy (1943)
1925: Alec Way, Jim Clark (1945)
1926: Ken Hands (1945)
1927: Eddie Craddock (1948)
1928: John Coleman (1949)
1929: Robert McKenzie (1948)
1930: Bill McMaster, John Hyde, Terry Fulton (1951)
1931: Neil Trezise (1951)
1932: Les Reed, Ron Hovey (1951)
1933: Thorold Merrett, Lerrel Sharp, Terry Waites (1953)
1934: Norm Sharp (1952)
1935: Don Williams (1955)
1936: Murray Weideman (1953)
1937: John Lord (1957)
1938: Ron Reeves, John Henderson, Brian Gray (1958)
1939: Kevin Rose, Brian Beers (1958)
1940: Ken Bennett (1958)
1941: Brian Sampson, Russell Blew, Graeme Beissel (1962)
1942: Brian Kenneally (1960)
1943: Brian Leahy (1960)
1944: Charlie Payne (1962)
1945: Geoff Pryor (1965)
1946: Bruce Waite (1965)
1947: Jeff Moran (1966)
1948: Allan Davis, Barry Breen (1966)
1949: Neil Chandler (1968)
1950: Robert Walls, Brent Crosswell (1968)
1951: Phillip Pinnell (1970)
1952: Leigh Matthews, Alan Martello (1971)
1953: Merv Keane (1973)
1954: Bryan Wood (1973)
1955: Noel Carter (1973)
1956: David Polkinghorne (1976)
1957: Cameron Clayton (1974)
1958: Rodney Eade (1976)
1959: Peter Russo, Richard Walter (1978)
1960: Wayne Harmes (1979)
1961: David Glascott (1981)
1962: Kevin Walsh (1984)
1963: Richard Loveridge (1983)
1964: Dermott Brereton (1983)
1965: Mark Harvey (1984)
1966: Scott Maginness, Darrin Pritchard (1988)
1967: Stephen Silvagni (1987)
1968: Graham Wright, Gavin Crosisca (1990)
1969: Damian Monkhorst, Tony Francis (1990)
1970: Greg Madigan (1989)
1971: Ryan Turnbull (1994)
1972: Ashley McIntosh (1992)
1973: Mitchell White, Glen Jakovich (1992)
1974: Joe Misiti, Mark Mercuri (1993)
1975: Dustin Fletcher (1993)
1976: Adam Simpson, Peter Bell (1996)
1977: Byron Pickett, Shannon Grant (1999)
1978: Kane Johnson (1997)
1979: Andrew Eccles (1998)
1980: Adam Ramanaskus, Dean Solomon (2000)
1981: Jonathan Brown, Robert Copeland (2001)
1982: Jamie Charman (2003)
1983: Ashley McGrath, Richard Hadley (2003)
1984: Paul Bevan, Adam Schneider, Sean Dempster (2005)
1985: Nathan Ablett (2007)
1986: Beau Waters, Sam Butler (2006)
1987: Jarryd Roughead (2008)
1988: Joel Selwood (2007)
1989: Cyril Rioli (2008)
1990: Jarryd Blair, Dayne Beams (2010)
1991: Steele Sidebottom (2010)
1992: Luke Parker, Alex Johnson (2012)
1993: Bradley Hill (2013)
1994: Lachie Hunter, Jake Stringer, Jack Macrae (2016)
1995: Marcus Bontempelli, Tom Boyd (2016)
1996: Zaine Cordy, Toby McLean, Caleb Daniel (2016)
1997: Josh Dunkley (2016)
1998: Jack Graham (2017)
1999: Noah Balta (2020)
2000: James Jordon, Tom Sparrow (2021)
2001: Luke Jackson, Trent Rivers, Kysaiah Pickett (2021)
2002: Jake Bowey (2021)
2003: Nick Daicos (2023)
 
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Have two Grand Final coaches in the same year coached against the team they played for?

I.e. A couple of single examples:

McRae coaches Collingwood to a flag against the team he played for.

Malcom Blight coached Adelaide to a premiership in 1998 against the team he played for.

Dennis Pagan played for the Swans and coached against them in the 1996 Grand Final.
 

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Paul Roos with 356 games for Fitzroy (1982-1994) and the Sydney Swans (1995-1998) holds the record for the longest playing career without ever playing in a premiership team or a team that collected the wooden spoon, however he did play in a runner-up grand final team, for Sydney against North Melbourne in 1996.

It got me thinking; which player had the longest career with no premierships or wooden spoons; but unlike Paul Roos no runner up team either?

At the other end of the scale (and discounting 1916 Fitzroy players) which player had the shortest career which included both a premiership and a wooden spoon?
 
emuboy said:
Paul Roos with 356 games for Fitzroy (1982-1994) and the Sydney Swans (1995-1998) holds the record for the longest playing career without ever playing in a premiership team or a team that collected the wooden spoon, however he did play in a runner-up grand final team, for Sydney against North Melbourne in 1996.

It got me thinking; which player had the longest career with no premierships or wooden spoons; but unlike Paul Roos no runner up team either?

At the other end of the scale (and discounting 1916 Fitzroy players) which player had the shortest career which included both a premiership and a wooden spoon?
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Pretty surprising considering who he played for and when that he never played in a wooden spoon team.
 
emuboy said:
Paul Roos with 356 games for Fitzroy (1982-1994) and the Sydney Swans (1995-1998) holds the record for the longest playing career without ever playing in a premiership team or a team that collected the wooden spoon, however he did play in a runner-up grand final team, for Sydney against North Melbourne in 1996.

It got me thinking; which player had the longest career with no premierships or wooden spoons; but unlike Paul Roos no runner up team either?

At the other end of the scale (and discounting 1916 Fitzroy players) which player had the shortest career which included both a premiership and a wooden spoon?
Click to expand...

I'm thinking Drew Petrie (332 games) is the answer. No grand final appearances as a North or West Coast player and no wooden spoons with either team.
 
worbod said:
I'm thinking Drew Petrie (332 games) is the answer. No grand final appearances as a North or West Coast player and no wooden spoons with either team.
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Drew Petrie would probably be correct. He joined the Kangaroos just after their golden era ended and had already retired from his short tenure at the Eagles when they won the 2018 premiership.

North Melbourne for two decades 2000-2009 and 2010-2019 are quite unusual; they added no team awards (premierships, runner up, minor premierships, night premierships) nor any individual awards (Brownlow, Coleman, Rising Star, Norm Smith) to their trophy cabinet, nor did they collect any wooden spoons in either decade.
 
pz5151 said:
Pretty surprising considering who he played for and when that he never played in a wooden spoon team.
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Paul Roos's two escapes from the wooden spoon were quite remarkable. After Round 18 1991 the wooden spoon looked assured to be going to Fitzroy when the Brisbane Bears moved two games plus percentage worth more than another game clear of the Lions on the bottom of the table. But when the Bears lost form after Round 18 and didn't win again, Fitzroy thrashed Richmond in Round 20, upset North Melbourne in Round 22 and then caused one of the biggest boil-overs in history beating minor premiers the West Coast Eagles in a bottom vs. top game, consigning the Bears to last when Brisbane were beaten by the Bulldogs in the last game of the season.

The second time was just as remarkable in 1994. After two very good seasons in 1992 and 1993 in which the Lions finished mid-ladder and challenged for the finals, the loss of players and declining financial position of the club began to show in 1994. After a promising start to the year, the Lions began to lose, dropping close games at first but after mid-year the losses became heavier. When Fitzroy met Sydney at the SCG in Round 20, the Lions were second last and the Swans last, and the match was billed as the wooden spoon grand final. In a dull game Fitzroy prevailed by 4 goals and looked safe, but would suffer four defeats by six goals or more to end the season, while the Swans improved form in the last four rounds gave them an upset over Carlton and in Round 24 another chance to get off the bottom of the ladder at Fitzroy's expense in a game against the enigmatic Melbourne at the MCG, the Swans having become a bit of a bogey side of the Demons. In a high-scoring, accurate game it was Melbourne which won over Sydney, leaving the Swans with the 1994 wooden spoon, and the Lions second last.

At the end of the season, Paul Roos departed Fitzroy for Sydney. The Swans had been last in 1992, 1993 and 1994, but began to climb the ladder in 1995, while Fitzroy would be last in 1995 and 1996 prior to the merger with the Bears. Contrast this with Darren Holmes, who played at the Sydney Swans in 1992, 1993 and 1994 before crossing to Fitzroy for 1995 and 1996, giving him five wooden spoons in a row.
 
emuboy said:
Contrast this with Darren Holmes, who played at the Sydney Swans in 1992, 1993 and 1994 before crossing to Fitzroy for 1995 and 1996, giving him five wooden spoons in a row.
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Tackled a Pig though.
 
If Jack Gunston is successful in his bid to be traded back to Hawthorn after one season at the Brisbane Lions, will this be the first case of a returning player only being away at a rival team for one season since Justin Murphy in 2001? To recap, Murphy transferred from Carlton to Geelong after the 2000 season, but his one season tenure at the Cats in 2001 didn't really work out and he returned to the Blues for 2002. Or have there been other cases like this between then and now?

While there have been plenty of other players who switched clubs but only lasted one season at their new club before transferring away again (Barry Mitchell, who transferred from Sydney to Collingwood for 1993 then transferred to Carlton for 1994, 1995 & 1996 after one unsuccessful season as a Magpie is one example) - has there ever been a transferring player who departed their new club for a third team after less than a year?

There was a case like this in the WAFL in the very early 1990s. Mal Williams played for West Perth in 1988, 1989 and 1990 (winning the Falcons B & F in 1989), then left West Perth for East Perth. At East Perth, Williams played senior football for the Royals early in the 1991 season, but then departed his new home mid-year for a third club, the Subiaco Lions, where he ended up being one of the Lions' best players in a disappointing 1991 Grand Final performance, Subiaco thrashed by the Claremont Tigers. Williams remained at Subiaco in 1992, but transferred to Perth for 1993, 1994 and 1995 before retiring, and as a piece of side trivia is the only WAFL player post WW2 to represent all three 'Perth' teams - West Perth, East Perth and Perth.

I don't recall off-hand any cases of an AFL/VFL player leaving Club A for Club B, then leaving Club B to join Club C after less than a year like the above WAFL case, but its possible there are some forgotten examples from years back. Do you know of any?
 
emuboy said:
If Jack Gunston is successful in his bid to be traded back to Hawthorn after one season at the Brisbane Lions, will this be the first case of a returning player only being away at a rival team for one season since Justin Murphy in 2001? To recap, Murphy transferred from Carlton to Geelong after the 2000 season, but his one season tenure at the Cats in 2001 didn't really work out and he returned to the Blues for 2002. Or have there been other cases like this between then and now?

While there have been plenty of other players who switched clubs but only lasted one season at their new club before transferring away again (Barry Mitchell, who transferred from Sydney to Collingwood for 1993 then transferred to Carlton for 1994, 1995 & 1996 after one unsuccessful season as a Magpie is one example) - has there ever been a transferring player who departed their new club for a third team after less than a year?

There was a case like this in the WAFL in the very early 1990s. Mal Williams played for West Perth in 1988, 1989 and 1990 (winning the Falcons B & F in 1989), then left West Perth for East Perth. At East Perth, Williams played senior football for the Royals early in the 1991 season, but then departed his new home mid-year for a third club, the Subiaco Lions, where he ended up being one of the Lions' best players in a disappointing 1991 Grand Final performance, Subiaco thrashed by the Claremont Tigers. Williams remained at Subiaco in 1992, but transferred to Perth for 1993, 1994 and 1995 before retiring, and as a piece of side trivia is the only WAFL player post WW2 to represent all three 'Perth' teams - West Perth, East Perth and Perth.

I don't recall off-hand any cases of an AFL/VFL player leaving Club A for Club B, then leaving Club B to join Club C after less than a year like the above WAFL case, but its possible there are some forgotten examples from years back. Do you know of any?
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Charlie Anderson in the mid-1920s comes pretty close - 1924 Carlton, 1925-26 Sth Melb, 1926 Richmond, 1927 Footscray
 

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Gibbsy said:
When's the last time a premiership player has been traded immediately after winning the flag? (e.g. Ginnivan)
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Pretty sure it's Brandon Ellis in 2019.
 
emuboy said:
Paul Roos with 356 games for Fitzroy (1982-1994) and the Sydney Swans (1995-1998) holds the record for the longest playing career without ever playing in a premiership team or a team that collected the wooden spoon, however he did play in a runner-up grand final team, for Sydney against North Melbourne in 1996.

It got me thinking; which player had the longest career with no premierships or wooden spoons; but unlike Paul Roos no runner up team either?

At the other end of the scale (and discounting 1916 Fitzroy players) which player had the shortest career which included both a premiership and a wooden spoon?
Click to expand...
Travis Boak now stands at 349 games without a premiership or a wooden spoon, and is playing in next year so will likely go past Roos’ games tally.
Port unlikely to win a flag or a spoon next year so will take over this stat.
Did play in the 2007 GF v Geelong, however I don’t believe any Port Adelaide players really played that game. Or will admit to it anyway.
 
Falconista said:
Pretty sure it's Brandon Ellis in 2019.
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Brandon Ellis was the last player before Jack Ginnivan to change clubs straight after a premiership win. He was also the fifth player to do so in the decade.

It started with Buddy Franklin who left Hawthorn after the 2013 premiership to go to Sydney.

In 2015, Matt Suckling played in Hawthorn's premiership and then went to Western Bulldogs.

In 2016, Joel Hamling played in the Western Bulldog's premiership and then went to Fremantle.

In 2018, Scott Lycett played in West Coast's premiership and then went to Port Adelaide.

And in 2019, Brandon Ellis played in Richmond's premiership and then went to Gold Coast.

So 5 times in 7 years.
 
emuboy said:
If Jack Gunston is successful in his bid to be traded back to Hawthorn after one season at the Brisbane Lions, will this be the first case of a returning player only being away at a rival team for one season since Justin Murphy in 2001? To recap, Murphy transferred from Carlton to Geelong after the 2000 season, but his one season tenure at the Cats in 2001 didn't really work out and he returned to the Blues for 2002. Or have there been other cases like this between then and now?

While there have been plenty of other players who switched clubs but only lasted one season at their new club before transferring away again (Barry Mitchell, who transferred from Sydney to Collingwood for 1993 then transferred to Carlton for 1994, 1995 & 1996 after one unsuccessful season as a Magpie is one example) - has there ever been a transferring player who departed their new club for a third team after less than a year?

There was a case like this in the WAFL in the very early 1990s. Mal Williams played for West Perth in 1988, 1989 and 1990 (winning the Falcons B & F in 1989), then left West Perth for East Perth. At East Perth, Williams played senior football for the Royals early in the 1991 season, but then departed his new home mid-year for a third club, the Subiaco Lions, where he ended up being one of the Lions' best players in a disappointing 1991 Grand Final performance, Subiaco thrashed by the Claremont Tigers. Williams remained at Subiaco in 1992, but transferred to Perth for 1993, 1994 and 1995 before retiring, and as a piece of side trivia is the only WAFL player post WW2 to represent all three 'Perth' teams - West Perth, East Perth and Perth.

I don't recall off-hand any cases of an AFL/VFL player leaving Club A for Club B, then leaving Club B to join Club C after less than a year like the above WAFL case, but its possible there are some forgotten examples from years back. Do you know of any?
Click to expand...
Ken Newland played 1976 at Footscray, not sure if perhaps because Bill Goggin coached there that season, but after one year he returned to Geelong to finish his career after the 1978 season. Ian Hampshire also joined the Dogs in '76 too, but remained there until finishing his playing days, indeed coaching the Dogs after Hart was sacked mid 1982, before Mick Malthouse commenced his coaching career with the Dogs from 1984 onwards.

Indeed Newland came to mind immediately when i saw Jack Gunstan was returning to the Hawks. Only thing is I was just 7 at the start of the '76 season and i cannot recall the exact circumstances of the pair of Cats joining the Dogs at the end of '75. New direction by new coach Ollson after Polly Farmer's inauspicious coaching career?
 
North park said:
Brandon Ellis was the last player before Jack Ginnivan to change clubs straight after a premiership win. He was also the fifth player to do so in the decade.

It started with Buddy Franklin who left Hawthorn after the 2013 premiership to go to Sydney.

In 2015, Matt Suckling played in Hawthorn's premiership and then went to Western Bulldogs.

In 2016, Joel Hamling played in the Western Bulldog's premiership and then went to Fremantle.

In 2018, Scott Lycett played in West Coast's premiership and then went to Port Adelaide.

And in 2019, Brandon Ellis played in Richmond's premiership and then went to Gold Coast.

So 5 times in 7 years.
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And this may become more common too. Some players would want to look after their finances or seek more opportunities once they've played in a flag as the 18th-22nd player, which most of these seem to be bar Buddy.
 
Gibbsy said:
When's the last time a premiership player has been traded immediately after winning the flag? (e.g. Ginnivan)
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Steven King was traded to St.Kilda after the 2007 flag, for pick 90, which I think was last seen scrunched up on the floor of the trade centre last week, as it never got used by the Cats in the '07 draft.
 
Anyone here got a copy of Ted Hopkins' book The Stats Revolution? Seems to be out of print. I tried to purchase a copy from a website but they sent an email back saying they could no longer source the book. Would love to pick it up if possible; am just finishing reading Moneyball (having watched the movie a while back) and am keen to soak in everything sports stats related. Cheers.
 
Gibbsy said:
Anyone here got a copy of Ted Hopkins' book The Stats Revolution? Seems to be out of print. I tried to purchase a copy from a website but they sent an email back saying they could no longer source the book. Would love to pick it up if possible; am just finishing reading Moneyball (having watched the movie a while back) and am keen to soak in everything sports stats related. Cheers.
Click to expand...
You should get “Scorecasting, the hidden influences behind how games are played and won.”

Think Freakonomics for sports.

Explains home ground advantage (spoiler, it exists), referee biases to star players (spoiler, they do) and game situations (spoiler, they do), momentum and the hot hand (spoiler, it probably doesn’t) and other insights behind the games like NFL, NBA, EPL that defy or confirm our perceived biases.
 
SC_Power said:
Travis Boak now stands at 349 games without a premiership or a wooden spoon, and is playing in next year so will likely go past Roos’ games tally.
Port unlikely to win a flag or a spoon next year so will take over this stat.
Did play in the 2007 GF v Geelong, however I don’t believe any Port Adelaide players really played that game. Or will admit to it anyway.
Click to expand...
It's interesting to note the difference of when Roos and Boak played their one Grand Final.

Roos had to wait until his 15th season and 314th game before playing in the 1996 Grand Final.

By contrast, Boak played in the 2007 Grand Final in his 14th game in his first season. He has since played a further 16 seasons without another Grand Final appearance.
 
Does anyone know of any user who tracks stats or data, similar to Champion Data do with the below?

I am hoping that someone has a sheet running, that can be filtered, as this sort of info only ever flashes up on screen on fox footy or is placed in an article like below.

hawks 2023.jpeg
 
emuboy said:
If Jack Gunston is successful in his bid to be traded back to Hawthorn after one season at the Brisbane Lions, will this be the first case of a returning player only being away at a rival team for one season since Justin Murphy in 2001? To recap, Murphy transferred from Carlton to Geelong after the 2000 season, but his one season tenure at the Cats in 2001 didn't really work out and he returned to the Blues for 2002. Or have there been other cases like this between then and now?
Click to expand...
Bernie Jones.

YearsClubGames (Goals)
1973–1977Hawthorn65 (31)
1978Essendon13 (11)
1979–1980Hawthorn8 (1)
Total86 (43)
 
Strapping Young Lad said:
Does anyone know of any user who tracks stats or data, similar to Champion Data do with the below?

I am hoping that someone has a sheet running, that can be filtered, as this sort of info only ever flashes up on screen on fox footy or is placed in an article like below.

View attachment 1846309
Click to expand...

They are generally kept under lock and key by Champion Data. And then sometimes (poorly) extrapolated into newspaper articles.

It’s lazy work by the journo if there is no context. What does “post-clearance” mean? It’s all well and good to be ranked 8th in the comp for something, but what is the criteria?
 
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