So How Dangerous is COVID Really?

[faible]

I've drawn no conclusions but pointed out facts.

Untrue; this is a conclusion;

What worked in India in 2020 was still working in India in 2021

Meanwhile, the conclusions of this report appear to disagree with you;

https://cgdev.org/sites/default/files/three-new-estimates-indias-all-cause-excess-mortality-during-covid-19-pandemic.pdf

wave 2 when mortality is likely to have increased as domestic health systems were overwhelmed.

The time pattern of the excess death estimates is also different across these three estimates.

the first wave seems to have been more lethal than is popularly believed. Because it was spread out in time and space, unlike the sudden and concentrated surge of the second wave, mortality in the first wave appeared moderate. But even the CRS data suggest that up to 2 million might have died in that period. In fact, not grasping the scale of the tragedy in real time in the first wave may have bred the collective complacency that led to the horrors of the second wave.

Even the report you linked, and appear to have used to draw your conclusions wouldn't necessarily support the conclusion you've drawn from itl;

Preliminary Analysis of Excess Mortality in India During the COVID-19 Pandemic

We studied all-cause mortality during the COVID-19 pandemic in 19 Indian states (population 1.27 billion). Excess mortality was calculated by comparison with years 2015 to 2019. The known COVID-19 deaths reported for a state were assumed to be accurate, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Our analysis has limitations. The data are incomplete for some regions and times, which might lead to underestimation of mortality. Death registrations may be delayed. Data from regional government websites, central government compilations, and RTI requests are not in complete agreement (Supplemental Table 2). Early data may contain errors. Mortality can be underestimated because of incomplete registration, health system underreporting, and data management errors. Health system overload, delays in patients seeking unrelated healthcare, and social changes such as lockdowns may produce excess mortality.

So, once again, we see BlueE simply ignore or misrepresent things he finds inconvenient to his argument.

The idea that you're 'just pointing out facts' is patently false, when you cherry pick only those things that would cause alarmism and refuse to acknowledge any further commentary or context to explain them.

This, yet again, is why not a single thing you post should be trusted or taken at false value. You're beyond help, but ensuring that other people who stumble across this thread don't read your posts unquestioningly and assuming you're posting in good faith is the important part.

 

[faible]

Now you just inventing stuff!

You know they are very different products don't you?

Every covid vaccine product on the US market has now had authorisation for use removed, except for the bivalent product.

It's only been available in Australia for general use since April and would be like Australia removing almost all of available their available covid - 19 jabs.

"Superceded" LOL. Or were there too many safety issues to keep ignoring with the other products?

It's only been tested on 8 mice and a few hundred people, investigational bivalent Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine in individuals greater than 55 years of age, a retrospective cohort study conducted at the Cleveland Clinic Health System which found "an overall modest protective effect of the bivalent vaccine booster against COVID-19, among working-aged adults."

Made some interesting comments that in that study that for their working age cohort they've been reporting on since 16 December 2020, the effects of the Omicron variant was so mild "There were too few severe illnesses for the study to be able to determine if the vaccine decreased severity of illness."

They also found the "that the greater the number of vaccine doses previously received the higher the risk of COVID-19. This is not the only study to find a possible association with more prior vaccine doses and higher risk of COVID-19."

Effectiveness of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) Bivalent Vaccine

Background The purpose of this study was to evaluate whether a bivalent COVID-19 vaccine protects against COVID-19. Methods Employees of Cleveland Clinic in employment on the day the bivalent COVID-19 vaccine first became available to employees, were included. The cumulative incidence of...

www.medrxiv.org

Have you read the actual press release for a start?

I do enjoy that you continue to waste everyone's time on this after taking a few months off BigFooty because you got tired of people not believing your nonsense. Now you're posting with a renewed excitement and vigor.

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Update: FDA Authorizes Changes to Simplify Use of Bivalent mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines

The FDA amended the EUAs of the Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 bivalent mRNA vaccines to simplify the vaccination schedule for most individuals.

www.fda.gov

 

[BlueE]

ATAGI who don't indicate Australia will follow the US in withdrawing approval for the original Pfizer or Moderna jabs, have given advice on the mRNA bivalent products.

"The provisional registration for the bivalent vaccines only supports their use as a booster dose at this time,"

"There are no data yet on the immunogenicity or safety of the Pfizer bivalent vaccine in people under 55 years of age."

"The Pfizer bivalent trial and the Pfizer monovalent BA.1 trial suggest that the safety profile of these vaccines is similar to the Pfizer original vaccine."

"The very small risk of myocarditis (inflammation of the heart) or pericarditis (inflammation of the membrane around the heart) following Moderna bivalent BA.4/5 vaccine does not appear to be greater than the risk after a first booster dose of Moderna original vaccine or a booster dose of Pfizer bivalent BA.4/5 vaccine in individuals aged 12 years and above at this time," the ATAGI said in a statement.

So all good. Same as the risks for myocarditis and pericarditis in 12 to 17 year olds and young adults. Now we know that is around one in 1800 for anyone aged 25 to 29 years for pericarditis, this information will be given to the relevant age groups people won't it?

https://www.health.gov.au/news/atagi-recommendations-on-use-of-the-pfizer-bivalent-originalomicron-ba1-covid-19-vaccine

https://www.health.gov.au/news/atagi-recommendations-on-use-of-the-moderna-bivalent-originalomicron-ba45-covid-19-vaccine

 

[BlueE]

Have you read the actual press release for a start?

I do enjoy that you continue to waste everyone's time on this after taking a few months off BigFooty because you got tired of people not believing your nonsense. Now you're posting with a renewed excitement and vigor.

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Update: FDA Authorizes Changes to Simplify Use of Bivalent mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines

The FDA amended the EUAs of the Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 bivalent mRNA vaccines to simplify the vaccination schedule for most individuals.

www.fda.gov

Do you not get sick of the gaslighing and slurs? Of course not and such big words!

I read the press release but makes no difference to anything I posted.

But maybe you should read the FDA twitter announcement comments and see what people that don't exist in a protected, propped environment thinks.

"Due to humanity having 100,000 generations of successful immunity, this is no longer required… and technically never was required."

"I'm old enough to remember when they told everyone that the bivalent wouldn't work if you didn't get the monovalent sequence first, so this makes total sense! Also - commenters/healthcare providers - has anyone actually seen a vial of Comirnaty, ever?"

"So 200 million people were tricked into getting a phizer shot - you got tons of money and now its no longer safe, because the same reasons it wasn't safe in the first place."

You forgot to add “In preparation for more damaging data to come in the future”.

If public health officials get their way, a healthy 5-year-old boy will get 72 COVID vaccine shots over the course of his lifetime, if he has an average lifespan, with a risk of myocarditis after each one.

So the “FDA APPROVED” mono valent is taken off market but the EUA untested product is what is required for everyone. What a joke!

How can the EUAs still exist when the Covid emergency has been declared over?

A vaccine so "Safe & Effective", it was only tested in 8 mice.

 

[BlueE]

Untrue; this is a conclusion;

Meanwhile, the conclusions of this report appear to disagree with you;

https://cgdev.org/sites/default/files/three-new-estimates-indias-all-cause-excess-mortality-during-covid-19-pandemic.pdf

Even the report you linked, and appear to have used to draw your conclusions wouldn't necessarily support the conclusion you've drawn from itl;

Preliminary Analysis of Excess Mortality in India During the COVID-19 Pandemic

We studied all-cause mortality during the COVID-19 pandemic in 19 Indian states (population 1.27 billion). Excess mortality was calculated by comparison with years 2015 to 2019. The known COVID-19 deaths reported for a state were assumed to be accurate, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So, once again, we see BlueE simply ignore or misrepresent things he finds inconvenient to his argument.

The idea that you're 'just pointing out facts' is patently false, when you cherry pick only those things that would cause alarmism and refuse to acknowledge any further commentary or context to explain them.

This, yet again, is why not a single thing you post should be trusted or taken at false value. You're beyond help, but ensuring that other people who stumble across this thread don't read your posts unquestioningly and assuming you're posting in good faith is the important part.

Once again I didn't draw conclusions and replying to an observation from profop with my own observations that you've jumped into, when you've repeatedly cherry picked, misread or misunderstood data from the clearly set out explained WAVSS report.

It's your narrative you are desperate to prove.

The published data on excess deaths in India in 2020 and 2021 is quite clear on the limitations in data especially in 2021, have a peer reviewed published article that looks at 994,637,028 to 1,268,126,792 of India's population without UP, rather than an unpublished, non peer reviewed report looking at 460,900 without UP.

 

[BlueE]

Also this is quite ironic, Telegram is a known source for the anti-covid and conspiracy community, which would mean your kind of people, not mine.

Yes, ironic isn't it.

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

The hilarity in banning Novak Djokovic from entering the country because he hasnt taken a product you no longer allow to be consumed isnt lost on me.

 

[BlueE]

The hilarity in banning Novak Djokovic from entering the country because he hasnt taken a product you no longer allow to be consumed isnt lost on me.

 

[faible]

Spamming this thread with overly long posts full of cherry picked, misrepresented or outright false information is a pet project of BlueE.

I'm sure you'll get another BigFooty holiday soon enough for your efforts.

I particularly enjoy the indignation that you get called out for doing exactly what you're doing, and trying to feign offence at others doing it back to you.

I get it, you backed the 'covid isn't a big deal' horse, and lost. You backed the 'vaccines will kill everyone' horse, and lost. People were saying from pretty early on that between vaccines and mutations it was likely to end up managed exactly the way we manage influenza (itself a source of some of the worst pandemics humanity has experienced) and now you're trying to pretend it's a win.

 

[GoEaglesGoSGIO]

Spamming this thread with overly long posts full of cherry picked, misrepresented or outright false information is a pet project of BlueE.

I'm sure you'll get another BigFooty holiday soon enough for your efforts.

I particularly enjoy the indignation that you get called out for doing exactly what you're doing, and trying to feign offence at others doing it back to you.

I get it, you backed the 'covid isn't a big deal' horse, and lost. You backed the 'vaccines will kill everyone' horse, and lost. People were saying from pretty early on that between vaccines and mutations it was likely to end up managed exactly the way we manage influenza (itself a source of some of the worst pandemics humanity has experienced) and now you're trying to pretend it's a win.

Would have been easier if you just posted

 

[Chief]

India with huge numbers of people and overcrowding didn't isolate and didn't have excess deaths in 2020,

Goodbye to our resident ChatBot.

 

[Chief]

Would have been easier if you just posted

Farewell.

 

[Chief]

After post upon post of half-arsed attempts to remove stories and stats from their context to try and paint the picture of vaccine failure, Blue and GoEagles have been exited from this thread.

We are vaccinating ourselves against misinformation.

 

[Chief]

If you want to know how FOS BlueE is on this topic:

India with huge numbers of people and overcrowding didn't isolate and didn't have excess deaths in 2020, as published in the BMJ.

What worked in India in 2020 was still working in India in 2021 in the States that were using it, again as shown in the published BMJ data.

It was your link that I've already replied to in detail, but published in the Journal of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene, 2022 May; 106(5): 1507–1510.

Preliminary Analysis of Excess Mortality in India During the COVID-19 Pandemic​

Perhaps you should have read it first, along with a local news paper report I posted.

ABSTRACT.​

We studied all-cause mortality during the COVID-19 pandemic in 19 Indian states (population 1.27 billion). Excess mortality was calculated by comparison with years 2015 to 2019. The known COVID-19 deaths reported for a state were assumed to be accurate, unless excess mortality data suggested a higher toll. Data from one state were excluded due to anomalies. In several regions, fewer deaths were reported in 2020 than expected. Areas in Andhra Pradesh, Delhi, Haryana, Karnataka, Madhya Pradesh, Tamil Nadu, and West Bengal saw spikes in mortality in Spring 2021. The pandemic-related mortality through August 31, 2021, in 18 Indian states was estimated to be 198.7 per 100,000 population (range 146.1–263.8 per 100,000). If these rates apply nationally, then 2.69 million people (range 1.98 to 3.57 million) may have perished in India as a result of the pandemic by August 31, 2021.

 

[faible]

Would have been easier if you just posted

I know because you find yourself siding with BlueE you think his standard tactic of wasting everyone's time such that they stop bothering to reply to the deluge of posts and goalpost shifted arguments, where you reply to one and suddenly the next response from him has shifted everything is somehow an actual intellectual discussion, but you'd be incorrect.

 

[faible]

I'm sure you'll get another BigFooty holiday soon enough for your efforts.

After post upon post of half-arsed attempts to remove stories and stats from their context to try and paint the picture of vaccine failure, Blue and GoEagles have been exited from this thread.

We are vaccinating ourselves against misinformation.

Well that didn't take long

 

[burge13]

Imagine having so much energy for covid in 2023 when its over. 140 replies lol. Posting alot more than the naughty people

 

[PurpleEyes]

If you want to know how FOS BlueE is on this topic:

ABSTRACT.​

We studied all-cause mortality during the COVID-19 pandemic in 19 Indian states (population 1.27 billion). Excess mortality was calculated by comparison with years 2015 to 2019. The known COVID-19 deaths reported for a state were assumed to be accurate, unless excess mortality data suggested a higher toll. Data from one state were excluded due to anomalies. In several regions, fewer deaths were reported in 2020 than expected. Areas in Andhra Pradesh, Delhi, Haryana, Karnataka, Madhya Pradesh, Tamil Nadu, and West Bengal saw spikes in mortality in Spring 2021. The pandemic-related mortality through August 31, 2021, in 18 Indian states was estimated to be 198.7 per 100,000 population (range 146.1–263.8 per 100,000). If these rates apply nationally, then 2.69 million people (range 1.98 to 3.57 million) may have perished in India as a result of the pandemic by August 31, 2021.

I find it very troubling that you see it fit to once again censor a poster and then dictate your opinion about that poster and their content when they no longer have any ability to respond.

And this is certainly not a one off.
This thread has recently seen an increase in discussion simply because for a brief moment in BF time, it was allowed.
But like so many threads and discussions before, as soon as the content trends down a non-official narrative which becomes difficult to control and debate, the BF administration steps in with their strongest debating tool ... censorship.

It appears that the threat is not misinformation, but any information contrary to your desired narrative.

Even in the posting of this Abstract as an attempt to paint BlueE in a bad light, I believe you have missed the point he was clearly trying to make ... that being India had a wave of Covid-19 during a period around April-August '21 (give or take a month either side) which did impact some locations of India badly, but overall, in general, that does not represent India's proper picture of their Covid-19 pandemic experience.
Yet you highlight part of the Abstract which is just an "If ..." hypothetical as evidence.

I could easily produce further evidence supporting what BlueE was trying to present in regards to India but it would apparently only increase my chances of also being banned from this thread (just add it to the list of the many I no longer have permission to contribute to).

If BlueE and others are producing so called misinformation about this topic, then letting them do so in sunlight should be the best way to disinfect such discussions. But you make your position clear when we see comments such as "vaccinating ourselves against misinformation" ... I think it's timely to remind many that it's not the vaccinating we fear is dangerous, but the mandating of it.

 

[Chief]

I find it very troubling that you see it fit to once again censor a poster and then dictate your opinion about that poster and their content when they no longer have any ability to respond.

But I'm not wrong.

And he has had a very loose rein these last few pages. Came up with nothing but cherry picking and misrepresentation of data and interpretation.

 

[Chief]

letting them do so in sunlight should be the best way to disinfect such discussions.

It would if they ever listened. Instead they shift the goal posts. They elide. They fabricate (or copy from Telegram channels) new and weird interpretations that are simply not borne out by evidence. Each post is another pile of rubbish that people have to sift through to find... nothing of any value whatsoever.

 

[MrKK]

It would if they ever listened. Instead they shift the goal posts. They elide. They fabricate (or copy from Telegram channels) new and weird interpretations that are simply not borne out by evidence. Each post is another pile of rubbish that people have to sift through to find... nothing of any value whatsoever.

Being a bit harsh on yourself there.

 

[Chief]

 

[CD Xbow]

The Baker Institute has just completed a study on sudden cardiac death in Victoria, looking at 3 periods, before the pandemic, during the pandemic but pre-vaccine and post vaccine. There was NO significant change in the rate of sudden cardiac death after vaccination compared to before. None. Zero. Zilch.

No truth to anti-vaxxers’ claims linking COVID vaccine and sudden cardiac arrest: study

Persistent and unsubstantiated claims that linked the coronavirus vaccine to the sudden deaths of young people have been dispelled by new research.

www.smh.com.au

For their efforts the folks at the Baker have received abuse, death threats and even been accused by a GOP senator of a cover up. God help us from these antivax idiots, I'm starting to believe the human race really is too stupid to survive.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

The Baker Institute has just completed a study on sudden cardiac death in Victoria, looking at 3 periods, before the pandemic, during the pandemic but pre-vaccine and post vaccine. There was NO significant change in the rate of sudden cardiac death after vaccination compared to before. None. Zero. Zilch.

No truth to anti-vaxxers’ claims linking COVID vaccine and sudden cardiac arrest: study

Persistent and unsubstantiated claims that linked the coronavirus vaccine to the sudden deaths of young people have been dispelled by new research.

www.smh.com.au

For their efforts the folks at the Baker have received abuse, death threats and even been accused by a GOP senator of a cover up. God help us from these antivax idiots, I'm starting to believe the human race really is too stupid to survive.

*in young people

Out of interest what at the private and corporate sources for the baker institutes funding?

 

[Consolaçao]

I find it very troubling that you see it fit to once again censor a poster and then dictate your opinion about that poster and their content when they no longer have any ability to respond.

And this is certainly not a one off.
This thread has recently seen an increase in discussion simply because for a brief moment in BF time, it was allowed.
But like so many threads and discussions before, as soon as the content trends down a non-official narrative which becomes difficult to control and debate, the BF administration steps in with their strongest debating tool ... censorship.

It appears that the threat is not misinformation, but any information contrary to your desired narrative.

Even in the posting of this Abstract as an attempt to paint BlueE in a bad light, I believe you have missed the point he was clearly trying to make ... that being India had a wave of Covid-19 during a period around April-August '21 (give or take a month either side) which did impact some locations of India badly, but overall, in general, that does not represent India's proper picture of their Covid-19 pandemic experience.
Yet you highlight part of the Abstract which is just an "If ..." hypothetical as evidence.

I could easily produce further evidence supporting what BlueE was trying to present in regards to India but it would apparently only increase my chances of also being banned from this thread (just add it to the list of the many I no longer have permission to contribute to).

If BlueE and others are producing so called misinformation about this topic, then letting them do so in sunlight should be the best way to disinfect such discussions. But you make your position clear when we see comments such as "vaccinating ourselves against misinformation" ... I think it's timely to remind many that it's not the vaccinating we fear is dangerous, but the mandating of it.

Yep, great points.

Imagine if we all approached conversations on topics like this with the idea in the back of our minds that we might be wrong. Or maybe even just a little bit misguided. I think we'd get better conversation and maybe open up opportunities to learn.

With COVID, if you genuinely consider yourself a thinking person, ask yourself the question: in light of all the information we now have, is it be possible that the strong views I hastily established in a climate of ignorance and fear in early 2020 are in need of revision?