NFL NFL Re-Alignment

[drd23]

Re: Divisional/Playoff Race

The division has to mean more than just bragging rights Woodson. They will not make it so that the division winner is not an automatic playoff participant.

This season is an argument for changes to the seeding process, with the 2 division winners with the best W/L records getting a bye, but the other 2 division winners not getting a guaranteed home playoff game

 

[Woodson]

Re: Divisional/Playoff Race

The division has to mean more than just bragging rights Woodson. They will not make it so that the division winner is not an automatic playoff participant.

This season is an argument for changes to the seeding process, with the 2 division winners with the best W/L records getting a bye, but the other 2 division winners not getting a guaranteed home playoff game

Changes have to happen to get it right. Afterall the NFL adjusted the divisions after long debate of re-alignment so the play-off seeding has to change also meaning a home play-off game can't be guaranteed for a sub-par record for Division winner. That's what can & should occur if the system is to work out. I don't agree that the Division winner merits a play-off berth if they have a sub-par W/L record. That's all.

 

[LarryBrown24]

Re: Divisional/Playoff Race

Tend to agree that no division winners shouldn't be kept from the playoffs, and that perhaps swapping home teams in any applicable wildcard games is fairer.

But a team with infereior record to another isn't necessarily a worse team, they just might have been in a tougher division, harder schedule etc. but how often does this happen? (obviously not the case this year with whoever wins NFC West)

 

[aussiedude]

Re: Divisional/Playoff Race

the NFC West and AFC West have been weak for years, now the AFC is starting to win more games, in 08 the chargers won with an 8-8 record, there will always be s**t teams but i do think they should re-seed the playoffs if there is a team thats 8-8 or less.

 

[drd23]

Re: Divisional/Playoff Race

Adam Schefter doesnt expect the rules to change to allow re-seeding of the playoffs anytime soon

Don't expect reseeding soon: Should Seattle defeat St. Louis on Sunday night, the Seahawks will win the NFC West with a 7-9 record. But do not look for the NFL to reseed its playoff teams anytime soon. It hasn't when the proposal has come up twice in the past three years. Three years ago, the Jaguars introduced a proposal in which the No. 1 and No. 2 seeds would be upheld, but seeds Nos. 3-6 then would be reshuffled and sorted by record, not division. The proposal generated conversation and even got 18 votes. But the 18 is six short of the number of votes needed to have the rules rewritten. One competition committee member said last week, "This is one of those proposals that people have talked about, but sometimes it takes time." People around the league believe that the time is not now, despite the fact that a good NFC team will be left home while the NFC West winner is assured of hosting a playoff game.

Its a shame too. I dont think that a team with a losing record should be entitled to a home playoff game (and the revenue that comes with it) because they are lucky(?) enough to play in such a bad division like the NFC-W

 

[aussiedude]

Re: Divisional/Playoff Race

it will come up after the new CBA is worked out, than they will work on reseeding the playoffs, they just want the 18 games and CBA worked out first.

 

[Woodson]

Re: Divisional/Playoff Race

Adam Schefter doesnt expect the rules to change to allow re-seeding of the playoffs anytime soonIts a shame too. I dont think that a team with a losing record should be entitled to a home playoff game (and the revenue that comes with it) because they are lucky(?) enough to play in such a bad division like the NFC-W

If two extra games are to be added, there will be more chance a sub-par record can be avoided. Already the Raiders are near to creating history by being the only non-play-off qualifier with a possible sweep of the division and maybe the Seahawks squeaking out a Division title with an ugly 7-9 record.

Here is a running list of indifferent play-off records that were hit-miss to qualify for the play-offs.

In 2008, the Chargers claimed the AFC West with a sub-par 8-8 while the Pats stayed at home with a 11-5 campaign.

In 2007, the Titans (10-6) & Redskins (9-7) were the third teams from their respective divisions to qualify for the play-offs.

In 2005, the 12-4 Jaguars qualified as a Wildcard team.

In 2004, both wildcard qualifiers in the NFC, Vikings & Rams, qualified with a 8-8 record (both winning their Wildcard play-off games).

In 2003, the 12-4 Titans qualified as a Wildcard team.

in 2002, the 11-5 Raiders were the #1 seed in the AFC.

In 1999, the Seahawks claimed the AFC West with a 9-7 record but were eliminated by the 'Fins (9-7) after being the third team from the AFC East to qualify for the post-season.

In 1989, the Browns claimed the Central with a 9-6-1 record but the Oilers & Steelers also qualified as Wildcards with a 9-7 record.

In 1988, three teams from the AFC Central division had a double digit winning season to qualify for the play-offs while the Seahawks claimed the AFC West with a 9-7 record. NY Giants stayed at home with a 10-6 record in the NFC after the Eagles claimed the East with the same W/L record.

but the ol' nugget Divisional dogma of the NFL

In 1985, the 8-8 Browns claimed the Central while the Broncos stayed at home with a 11-5 record and so did the Seattle & San Diego with an 8-8 record. Seattle defeated Cleveland 31-13 in Week 14 of that season. Although Chargers lost to the Browns.

 

[larkis]

Re: Divisional/Playoff Race

It's the drama of the playoffs, not every team can make it. Each team is given a guarantee path to the playoffs if they are the best team in the division. Sure the Raiders defeated most of the AFC-West but failed to capitilize on their other games (considering they get four games against the NFC-West and an unusal AFC-South). Now you have twelve teams fighting for two spots, ten teams will miss out. The odds of a good team or two that can challenge in the NFL missing out on a wildcard spot are high.

Even with more games, more sub-par teams will make the playoffs with extra oppertunities to get injured. Look at how many teams are now playing their second or third string QB and would just fall out of the playoffs if they played next week. More games is not going to be the answer just to push up the record of underperforming teams.

Back to the point, home playoff games are not a reward for being a good team. They are a reward for being a division winner. Wildcards just get the right to play in the playoffs, not to a home playoff game. As much as I hate to see an uncompetitive team make the playoffs, all we can do is have faith in the system to provide the fans with a full season of competitive games and a competitive playoff series.

 

[Woodson]

Re: Divisional/Playoff Race

Well Larkis, you've toed the NFL party line beautifully with that articulated post.

Thanx for the input and all good for this NFL thread specifically for the uninitiated NFL follower.

Hope you don't choke on the popcorn come Monday morning.

 

[mcgarnacle]

Re: Divisional/Playoff Race

It's not the F/A pts that should be annoying you but the fact of an inferior W/L record qualifies. It's downright embarrassing for the NFL that they do not act on this by getting the Owners aside to make them realise it's damaging to the play-off system. In 2008, the CHARGERS qualified by winning the AFC West with a sub-par 8-8 record while the NE Pats stayed at home with a more convincing 11-5 record. I agree, it's a joke on the NFL.

Sure, keep the divisions and allow the bragging rights for a division title but No guarantees for play-off qualification if the team can't have the better W/L record and same goes with HOME Field. Seahawks/ Rams have the chance to claim a home field first week game vs a Wildcard with a superior record.

Net points (or for-and-against) does not have much relevance which is why it kicks in so low in the tie-breaking procedure list. In competitions which dont utilise a pure-league format (such as the NFL and AFL) the focus needs to be on head-to-head wins rather than points differentials in matches because teams have different schedules or dont play all teams twice. in effect some teams have easier schedules than others.

which also leads to this issue some people have every year with teams qualifying to the post-season with inferior win-loss records to other teams.

the objective in the NFL is to win the division. this is the point of regular season play the achievement guarantees a playoff spot. win the division, then win the conference, then win the superbowl. there are 3 levels to the competition. if anything, wildcards have bastardised the concept.

fact is, the regular season is and should be about winning the division and significant incentives exist to reflect the importance of this task in all american professional sporting competitions. win your division, be the best team amongst others who play the same opponents and the reward is a playoff berth........and rightly so. that's a significant point - a division's unique opponents.

WC's should consider themselves lucky that they get a shot at playoffs, considering that they're the inferior team within they're division with it's unique schedule in regular season play. this is the case with SD. in regards to STL or SEA making the playoffs with an inferior record to others in the conference or league that will miss out, these two teams have had a different schedule to others. this is the point. in this case, the simple W-L record does not tell the full story.

if fans want a league-wide W-L record rank to be the ultimate determining factor for playoff qualification, then divisions and conferences will mean squat and it will basically become the farce which the AFL is when determining the season draw and post-season competitors. then a new range of issues will be created, such as difficulty of opponents, travel, etc. W-L records can only be totally comparative in pure league format competitions.

the NFL regular season is effectively 8 separate competitions, with the best of each group being represented in the playoffs, like regional winners getting the right to compete at state level (conference playoffs), then going on to nationals (superbowl).

and before anyone points out (as many posters seem more concerned with the team someone supports rather than the argument) i believe the Jets dont deserve to be in the playoffs.........not even ahead of the AFC south or NFC west winner. they are not the division's best in regular season play and so dont deserve to go to the next level. but the rules will allow them to progress. this is a joke. at least the NFL rules will ensure that to win the comp, they will have to do it on the road, the hard way.

 

[weagles_fan]

Re: Divisional/Playoff Race

Maybe they should reduce it to 3 divisions which puts more teams in the division and like the NHL, the division winners get the top 3 seeds then the next best get the other 3.

 

[larkis]

Re: Divisional/Playoff Race

Maybe they should reduce it to 3 divisions which puts more teams in the division and like the NHL, the division winners get the top 3 seeds then the next best get the other 3.

Any form of re-allocation is just going to disadvantage a team or two. It will require a team to travel more, travel furtherer and dilute the existing rivalries slowly being established in the recently re-allocated divisions.

You're never going to have a perfect system and unusual circumstances will occur. Look at the AFL for example, once upon a time it looked like the interstate clubs were dominating and being forced to play in Melbourne for the GF. Was that fair to interstate teams? Of course it wasn't but give it time and it will seem right. Occasionally one division will look weaker then the other but teams all want to get into the post-season. Division rivals will compete for the right to play in the post-season and will get stronger. However it doesn't change the fact that you need to beat wildcard teams and stronger division winners in the play-offs to get more games in the play-offs. The spectacles will come, the fairytale stories will come and we will see some folklore get made in the play-offs, infamous or famous memories.

However as we have it the system is as fair as it can be. Sure, some teams can get poor schedules (three games on the road, playing teams after the bye or just getting the stronger teams away and the weaker teams at home) however we will still be guaranteed a good play-off series.

 

[Dirty Bird]

Re: Divisional/Playoff Race

I like the idea of bigger divisions, but I dont like the idea of 2 divisions of 5, and 1 of 6

If they go for 6 larger divisions, I think they should expand to 36 teams

San Antonio, Los Angeles, Las Vegas and Louisville could be the new teams (the first 3 would be almost certainties if there was expansion, Louisville was just to fill in the random spot)

Then after a major re-alignment (based on where they actually are based instead of holding onto established rivalries) we could go

NFC West
San Francisco, Seattle, Arizona, Dallas, Los Angeles, San Antonio
NFC Central
Minnesota, St Louis, New Oreleans, Green Bay, Chicago, Detroit
NFC East
Atlanta, Tampa Bay, Carolina, Washington, Philadelphia, New York (Giants)

AFC West
Oakland, San Diego, Denver, Houston, Kansas City, Las Vegas
AFC Central
Tennessee, Louisville, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Jacksonville
AFC East
Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Miami, Baltimore, New York (Jets), New England

I think the biggest winners with this change are the fans (dont have to have the Cowboys vs Eagles/Giants/Redskin bullshit rammed down our throats all the time)
while the losers are the AFC North (at least Dallas can set up an instate rivalry with San Antonio, while getting a huge media battle with LA - but the Browns vs Ravens, Bengals vs Steelers and Browns vs Steelers rivalries would be alot less frequent )

system
play everyone inside your own division twice (10 games)
over a period of 2 years, you would play a full division from inside and outside your conferance, so 3 games per year against a pre-determined division

eg
2011, San Francisco could have vs Minnesota, @ St Louis, vs New Orleans, @ Oakland, vs San Diego and @ Denver
then in 2012, San Francisco would have vs Green Bay, @ Chicago, vs Detroit, @ Houston, vs Kansas City and @ Las Vegas

that adds 6 games, and creates the 16 game schedule, BUT, with the expansion to 18 games, we need another 2 games

each team in each conferancs who share a (divisional) seed (from the previous season), would play each other
even if they played each other on the rotational thingy. so it could be possible for the Colts and Pats to play each other twice in a year, once due to the rotational thingy, and again due to both finishing 1st in their division

oh, and shrink playoffs to 4 teams max, maybe even 3

1 vs Wildcard (or bye)
2 vs 3

 

[aussiedude]

Re: Divisional/Playoff Race

i doubt they will ever go back to 3 devisions, they have only had the 4 devisions for about 8 years

 

[DB10]

Re: Divisional/Playoff Race

if you're going to expand the divisions the number has to be a division of the total number of teams in the league. you can't divide 6 into 32 evenly.

unless there is some hefty expansion that is. but I like how it currently is, 8-of-4 works brilliantly.

 

[DB10]

Re: Divisional/Playoff Race

that said, using Riggy's model of the current 32 + 4 expansion (Los Angeles, San Antonio, Salt Lake City [Utah], Albuquerque) lets ditch the AFC/NFC conference model and go with something looking like this, using 6-of-6 similar to the NHL and NBA ...

Eastern Conference
Atlantic(?): Baltimore Ravens, Cincinnati Bengals, Cleveland Browns, Indianapolis Colts, Jacksonville Jaguars, Pittsburgh Steelers
Northeast: Buffalo Bills, New England Patriots, New York Giants, New York Jets, Philadelphia Eagles, Washington Redskins
Southeast: Atlanta Falcons, Carolina Panthers, Miami Dolphins, New Orleans Saints, Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Tennessee Titans

Western Conference
Central: Chicago Bears, Detroit Lions, Green Bay Packers, Kansas City Chiefs, Minnesota Vikings, St. Louis Rams
Pacific: Los Angeles Trojan-Lakers, Oakland Raiders, San Francisco 49ers, San Diego Chargers, Seattle Seahawks, Utah Wasps
Southwest: Albuquerque Isotopes, Arizona Cardinals, Dallas Cowboys, Denver Broncos, Houston Texans, San Antonio Gunslingers

A couple of divisions survive in tact, a couple are largely destroyed.

Although doing it that way would sacrifice non-conference games in a sixteen game schedule, unless it's scheduled as: 5x2 divisional games, 3 home/3 away vs. another division. If it went to an eighteen game system, the remaining two games could follow the college system (yeah, I know ) where teams "nominate" rivals they wish to play every year. So Dallas can still play Philadelphia and Washington every year, Denver can play Oakland, and so on.

Purely because i'm bored.

 

[Exe Gesis]

Re: Divisional/Playoff Race

Posts moved to a related thread.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Re: Possible Re-Alignment Discussion

They will never seperate Dallas from the rest of the NFC East. Theres just too much money at stake in having those clashes.

 

[DB10]

Re: Possible Re-Alignment Discussion

yeah, I know that definitely won't happen. if I used that format but kept the NFC East in tact I imagine it could look like:

Jets -> Atlantic
Cowboys -> Northeast
Jags -> Southeast
Saints -> Southwest

or something like that anyway.

a division of Baltimore, NY Jets, Indy and Pittsburgh would be awesome though.

 

[Woodson]

Re: Divisional/Playoff Race

fact is, the regular season is and should be about winning the division and significant incentives exist to reflect the importance of this task in all american professional sporting competitions. win your division, be the best team amongst others who play the same opponents and the reward is a playoff berth........and rightly so. that's a significant point - a division's unique opponents.

WC's should consider themselves lucky that they get a shot at playoffs, considering that they're the inferior team within they're division with it's unique schedule in regular season play. this is the case with SD. in regards to STL or SEA making the playoffs with an inferior record to others in the conference or league that will miss out, these two teams have had a different schedule to others. this is the point. in this case, the simple W-L record does not tell the full story.

if fans want a league-wide W-L record rank to be the ultimate determining factor for playoff qualification, then divisions and conferences will mean squat and it will basically become the farce which the AFL is when determining the season draw and post-season competitors. then a new range of issues will be created, such as difficulty of opponents, travel, etc. W-L records can only be totally comparative in pure league format competitions.

the NFL regular season is effectively 8 separate competitions, with the best of each group being represented in the playoffs, like regional winners getting the right to compete at state level (conference playoffs), then going on to nationals (superbowl).

Great posting mcgarnacle. (along with Larkis).

I suppose we're all getting abit tired of the NFC West dragging the standards down. But your post illustrates TWO things quite articulate that we (I) didn't care to grasp/ embrace initially.... 1. The NFL Play-Offs isn't based on MERIT.

2. It's got it's own mystic ways of qualification that isn't for the faint hearted.

and before anyone points out (as many posters seem more concerned with the team someone supports rather than the argument) i believe the Jets dont deserve to be in the playoffs.........not even ahead of the AFC south or NFC west winner. they are not the division's best in regular season play and so dont deserve to go to the next level. but the rules will allow them to progress. this is a joke. at least the NFL rules will ensure that to win the comp, they will have to do it on the road, the hard way.

Winning on the road isn't as much the challenge as it's made out to be.

Jets have done 'enough' to secure their wildcard and we'll all look forward what Rex Ryan has to offer in his second play-off installment.. amusing what this J-E-T-S fan has to say. Wonder if you, mcgarnacle along with any of the BF Jets faithful feel the same?

[YOUTUBE]8s3OvCnSHx0?fs[/YOUTUBE]

 

[balmainforever]

Re: Possible Re-Alignment Discussion

Lets expand on this.

We would all agree that Tampa Bay have improved this year, but should they still be in playoff contention. They're 4-0 vs the NFC West. Do they sweep the NFC North or NFC East????

Kansas City is another example. They've also swept the NFC West and may get the 3 seed in the playoffs.

You start making exceptions on one scale and then you get imbalances elsewhere.

LEAVE THINGS ALONE!

 

[Woodson]

Re: Possible Re-Alignment Discussion

Lets expand on this.

We would all agree that Tampa Bay have improved this year, but should they still be in playoff contention. They're 4-0 vs the NFC West. Do they sweep the NFC North or NFC East????

Kansas City is another example. They've also swept the NFC West and may get the 3 seed in the playoffs.

You start making exceptions on one scale and then you get imbalances elsewhere.

LEAVE THINGS ALONE!

KC are frauds. You can shake on that!!

 

[greennick]

Re: Possible Re-Alignment Discussion

Divisional winners have to automatically qualify. If they don't, what is the point of winning the division? I would like to see the playoff seedings changed though, to increase the chances of good teams making it to the playoffs against the 1&2 seeds. Otherwise those games can become very one-sided, which you don't like to see for such a week 2 playoff game.

I don't think winning your division should necessarily guarantee a home final, it should go down to winning record, with the first tiebreaker being divisional placement. So, an 11-5 division winner gets a home final over a 11-5 wildcard. An 11-5 wildcard though gets a home final over a 10-6 division winner.

 

[FootyJunkie]

Re: Possible Re-Alignment Discussion

scrap conferences, combine north, south, east and west... four divisions of 8... division champs are 1-4, next best 8 regardless of division are 5-12.

if done this year, only Kansas City with a reasonable 11-5 record would have made it to the playoffs out of all the West clubs.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Re: Possible Re-Alignment Discussion

LEAVE THINGS ALONE!

Hallelujah!!!