Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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Behinds correction for 1984 R12 Haw v Ess PART 2

All references for this game have Essendon's half time score as 4.5 29.

It should be 4.6 30.

As the below video shows, Essendon's score at quarter time was 2.4 16. In the 2nd qtr, Essendon kick 2.2 14 to end the half at 4.6 30. They begin the 3rd qtr with a score of 4.6 30, and kick 1.2 8 to finish the qtr on the recorded score of 5.8 38. So all other qtr x qtr scores for this game are correct.

The Age on the Monday had the correct half-time score of 4.6. But the Footy Record the following week had 4.5, and perhaps that is where scores have been sourced from since.





The Age 18/6/1984 pg 27 -



Summary -

1984 Rnd 12 Haw v Ess - Alter Essendon's half time score from 4.5 29 to 4.6 30.

 

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At least tell me you're having fun re-watching all this 'glory days' football so closely

Oh you bet. Bloody glorious.

It's such a different sport with the interpretation of so many rules being the polar opposite of now.

 

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Another score correction - from 1984 Rnd 8 Carl v Haw.

All references have 17.8 for Hawthorn's score at 3 qtr time in this game.

I reckon it should be 17.9.

Hawthorn begin the 3rd qtr on 13.6. As seen in the below video they kick 4.3 for the qtr (not 4.2). The video shows the scores for the qtr, as well as the score at the end of the qtr, and the start of the next.

Hawthorn kick 6.4 (behinds to Kennedy, Kennedy, Matthews, Curran) in the final qtr, not 6.5, and finish on 23.13 151.



For whatever reason, the Monday Age and the Footy Record the following this match both have 17.8 as the 3QT score. But it pretty clearly should be 17.9.

Summary -

1984 Rnd 8 Carl v Haw - Alter Hawthorn's 3QT score from 17.8 to 17.9.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Thanks for the kind thoughts.

No problems Rhett.

When I saw on Twitter you hadn't tweeted for a week or so, I thought "something must've been up."

 

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Behinds correction 1984 R18 Haw v Carl

All references for this game have Hawthorn's Ken Judge kicking 1 behind, and Rodney Eade kicking none.

In the below video, Eade kicks a behind (under the interpretations of the day). Ken Judge does not score any behinds in this game at all. All other allocated behinds in this game align. There was one Rushed behind allocated in Hawthorn's score, and that is also shown in the video below.



Summary -

1984 Rnd 18 Haw v Carl - Rodney Eade plus 1 behind, Ken Judge minus 1 behind.

 

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Behinds correction 1984 R20 Syd v Haw

All references for this game have Hawthorn's Russell Greene kicking 1 behind, Chris Langford kicking none, Ken Judge kicking 2, and 2 Rushed for Hawthorn.

Per the below video, Chris Langford kicks a behind, and Ken Judge kicks 3. Russell Greene does not kick a point in this game, and there's only 1 Rushed (Hawthorn's 5th), not 2.



Bear in mind that under the interpretation of the day, any kick touched through was awarded as a behind to the kicking player.

Summary -

1984 Rnd 20 Syd v Haw - Chris Langford plus 1 behind, Ken Judge plus 1 behind, Russell Greene minus 1 behind, 'Rushed by Sydney for Hawthorn' minus 1 behind.

 

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Behinds correction 1984 Rnd 22 Haw v Geel

All references for this game have the following -
Leigh Matthews - 3 behinds (should be 4)
Chris Langford - 2 behinds (should be 1)
Michael McCarthy - 1 behind (should be 0)
Rushed for Hawthorn by Geelong - 1 behind (should be 2)
Richard Loveridge - 1 behind (correct)

In the below video, Leigh Matthews clearly kicks behinds at 0:05, 0:20, 1:30 and 1:50.

In the rest of this game, Chris Langford only kicks one behind (Hawthorn's 6th) and Michael McCarthy kicks none.

Richard Loveridge kicks 1 behind (Hawthorn's 7th), included in the video at 0:50.

Hawthorn's 9th behind, included at 1:10, is Rushed. The behind at 0:40 (Hawthorn's 5th) should also be Rushed (or at worst, given as a second behind to Loveridge... but I think it's Rushed).



All other scores in this game, including Geelong's, align.

Summary -

1984 Rnd 22 Haw v Geel - Leigh Matthews plus 1 behind, 'Rushed by Geelong for Hawthorn' plus 1 behind, Chris Langford minus 1 behind, Michael McCarthy minus 1 behind.

 

[rbartlett]

Oliver G
There's a lot of pre 1965 behinds data that exists that I have (and Col has previously given me data as well ), did you want that info to upload into AustralianFootball

 

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Amazing how bad the person responsible for recording Hawthorn's behinds was back in the 80s! They seemed to manage Hawthorn's opponents without problem most times. Bloody awful at doing the Hawks though.

1984 Qualifying Final Haw v Carl

All references for this game, including the newspapers on the Monday after, have:

Chris Langford kicking 2 behinds (he kicks 3)
Richard Loveridge kicking 1 behind (he kicks 2)
Peter Curran kicking 2 behinds (he kicks none)

All other scores align, including all of Carlton's.



Summary -

1984 QF Haw v Carl - Chris Langford plus 1 behind, Richard Loveridge plus 1 behind, Peter Curran minus 2 behinds.

 

[rbartlett]

Amazing how bad the person responsible for recording Hawthorn's behinds was back in the 80s! They seemed to manage Hawthorn's opponents without problem most times. Bloody awful at doing the Hawks though.

1984 Qualifying Final Haw v Carl

All references for this game, including the newspapers on the Monday after, have:

Chris Langford kicking 2 behinds (he kicks 3)
Richard Loveridge kicking 1 behind (he kicks 2)
Peter Curran kicking 2 behinds (he kicks none)

All other scores align, including all of Carlton's.



Summary -

1984 QF Haw v Carl - Chris Langford plus 1 behind, Richard Loveridge plus 1 behind, Peter Curran minus 2 behinds.

At this rate I suspect I'm going to have to start watching most of the Richmond games of the 80s. Though sadly there weren't many finals matches in that period

 

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1985 Rnd 3 Ess v Haw

All references have Leigh Matthews credited with zero behinds, with 1 Rushed for Hawthorn. Per video below, Matthews kicks 1, all other players' behinds align, there were no Rushed behinds for Hawthorn.

All Essendon scores align.



Summary -

1985 Rnd 3 Ess v Haw - Leigh Matthews plus 1 behind, Rushed for Hawthorn minus 1 behind.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Jack Southern (SM) has recorded DOD 7 Mar 1919 however his gravestone clearly shows death date of 8 Mar 1919
Oliver G - for australianfootball.com

Summary: Death date of Jack Southern is 8 Mar 1919

 

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1985 R14 Haw v Ess

Hawthorn scores all correct for once, but... Essendon Goal Correction!

All references have Roger Merrett kicking 5 goals and Paul Vander Haar 1.

The first goal in the below video (Essendon's 5th) was incorrectly awarded to Merrett. It looks pretty clear to me that it was Vander Haar that cleverly dragged the ball over the line with his boot. Van Der Haar then kicks a 2nd goal a few minutes later (Essendon's 6th).

Merrett kicks Essendon's 2nd, 3rd, 8th & 14th goal. I included his 3rd goal in the video below for the lols.



Summary -

1985 Rnd 14 Haw v Ess - Paul Vander Haar plus 1 goal, Roger Merrett minus 1 goal.

 

[Gibbsy]

1985 R14 Haw v Ess

Hawthorn scores all correct for once, but... Essendon Goal Correction!

All references have Roger Merrett kicking 5 goals and Paul Vander Haar 1.

The first goal in the below video (Essendon's 5th) was incorrectly awarded to Merrett. It looks pretty clear to me that it was Vander Haar that cleverly dragged the ball over the line with his boot. Van Der Haar then kicks a 2nd goal a few minutes later (Essendon's 6th).

Merrett kicks Essendon's 2nd, 3rd, 8th & 14th goal. I included his 3rd goal in the video below for the lols.



Summary -

1985 Rnd 14 Haw v Ess - Paul Vander Haar plus 1 goal, Roger Merrett minus 1 goal.

If you can find one more goal for Vanders then he becomes Essendon's leading goalkicker of that season!

 

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If you can find one more goal for Vanders then he becomes Essendon's leading goalkicker of that season!

I've still got the 2SF to go, so you never know.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

1985 R14 Haw v Ess

Hawthorn scores all correct for once, but... Essendon Goal Correction!

All references have Roger Merrett kicking 5 goals and Paul Vander Haar 1.

The first goal in the below video (Essendon's 5th) was incorrectly awarded to Merrett. It looks pretty clear to me that it was Vander Haar that cleverly dragged the ball over the line with his boot. Van Der Haar then kicks a 2nd goal a few minutes later (Essendon's 6th).

Merrett kicks Essendon's 2nd, 3rd, 8th & 14th goal. I included his 3rd goal in the video below for the lols.



Summary -

1985 Rnd 14 Haw v Ess - Paul Vander Haar plus 1 goal, Roger Merrett minus 1 goal.

For *Paul*.

 

[35Daicos]

Here are some (Collingwood-related) changes to the official records which have been made in recent times (they are now in the records of Collingwood FC and the AFL):


Those first two DOB changes came out a while ago, and it looks like the main sources now have them.

Some of these changes won't yet appear on Collingwood Forever, as the site is currently undergoing a major update. That 1964 change now means Terry Waters has gone from winning the goalkicking outright, to tying it after the 1964 GF discovery 12 months ago, to now finishing second to Ian Graham!

Oliver G
*Paul*

 

[35Daicos]

The Wiki page of Carlton 1904 one-gamer Ernie Ashton includes a photo of a footballer, but it's not the right person!
It's of the Ernie Ashton who played for Collingwood (VFA 1892-1895): https://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/players/ernest-graham-ashton/
and Carlton (VFA 1890-1892?, 1896): https://www.blueseum.org/E.+(Ernie)+Ashton

So could someone please remove that photo! Blueseum doesn't have a photo of the Ernie Ashton who played for Carlton in the VFL: https://www.blueseum.org/Ernie+Ashton

Edit: That's been fixed already, so thank you very much WhiteHartLane23 ! I can fix/change a fair few things on Wikipedia, but I tried doing something with a photo a while back, and stuffed it up badly! So I'm happy to leave that job for the experts!!

 

[Gibbsy]

Here are some (Collingwood-related) changes to the official records which have been made in recent times (they are now in the records of Collingwood FC and the AFL):
View attachment 1948511
View attachment 1948521
Those first two DOB changes came out a while ago, and it looks like the main sources now have them.

Some of these changes won't yet appear on Collingwood Forever, as the site is currently undergoing a major update. That 1964 change now means Terry Waters has gone from winning the goalkicking outright, to tying it after the 1964 GF discovery 12 months ago, to now finishing second to Ian Graham!

Oliver G
*Paul*

I can't think of too many other instances where someone has lost their 'title' decades down the track, and in this case perhaps it's best that it was discovered a few years after Waters' death, but one that came to mind straight away was Jack Dyer and the 1932 phantom B&F award.

rbartlett did anything ever come of that? Was there an official 'appeal' by the Dyer family?

 

[rbartlett]

I can't think of too many other instances where someone has lost their 'title' decades down the track, and in this case perhaps it's best that it was discovered a few years after Waters' death, but one that came to mind straight away was Jack Dyer and the 1932 phantom B&F award.

rbartlett did anything ever come of that? Was there an official 'appeal' by the Dyer family?

No official appeals from any of the families involved (remember it wasn't just Dyer, but Thorp, Herbert and more who were affected). Certainly families were upset, but we've always said to them we are happy to reopen anyone's case if new evidence surfaces.

 

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1985 Rnd 4 Syd v Haw

Swans behind correction -

Sydney's 14th and final behind was credited to Brett Scott, when it should have been credited to Stephen Wright, per video below. Scott does not kick a behind in this game.



Summary -

1985 Rnd 4 Syd v Haw - Stephen Wright plus 1 behind, Brett Scott minus 1 behind.

 

[35Daicos]

I can't think of too many other instances where someone has lost their 'title' decades down the track, and in this case perhaps it's best that it was discovered a few years after Waters' death, but one that came to mind straight away was Jack Dyer and the 1932 phantom B&F award.

rbartlett did anything ever come of that? Was there an official 'appeal' by the Dyer family?

There's another example that's come up in recent times, and that's Collingwood great Dick Lee losing his "half share" of the 1910 Leading Goalkicker Award (Coleman Medal equivalent), after it was noticed/pointed out that a simple error had been made at some stage with the sums not done properly for that year!: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...fficial-records.1089761/page-53#post-53986388


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A relative/descendant of Lee would have been presented with that medal back in 2004. I wonder if they ever asked for it to be returned?! Probably not!

They still have Lee and Martini sharing the award here: https://www.afl.com.au/stats/leaders-awards/coleman-medal
I've just sent an email about that to the website, so I'm hoping someone fixes it soon enough!

They've made a bit of a mess of this in the AFL Season Guide, and after all this time still haven't quite fixed it properly!:

They've taken Lee's name out of the top section (for 1910), which is correct, but needed to add him to the next section. With 58 goals for the season he was the leading goalkicker (at the end of the finals). In 1911 Harry Brereton was the sole winner (leading goalkicker) with 46 goals. Vin Gardiner had 43 goals in the H&A games, and another 3 in a finals game. So he finished on 46 for the season (not 47). His name should be removed from the top section, and the correct figure entered into the next one!

Rather strangely, they have it shown correctly here!:

***
I have sent an email to the new editor of the Season Guide advising him of these issues.

 

[rbartlett]

FYi Peter Corkran's dob is incorrect in a couple of places (ie: AustFootball Oliver G )
It's Jan 8 1948 - wikipedia is correct.

Peter Corkran - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Australian Football - Peter Corkran - Player Bio

australianfootball.com

as per his facebook post today

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

James Chapman (Fitz) has a US/Aus date style error in his date of death.

Ryerson shows a death notice for James Euan Cameron in The Age on 13/12/1993 with death date of 11/12/1993
Wiki/australianfootball.com currently show death date as 12 Nov (although infobox on wiki was edited by someone a couple of years ago)

Summary: Death date for James Chapman is 11 Dec 1993 rather than 12 Nov 1993
Oliver G - for af.com

 

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Behinds correction, 1986 Rnd 2 NM v Haw

Inexplicable mess.

All references have Hawthorn's behinds as follows -
Buckenara 2 (correct)
Byrne 2 (he kicks 1)
DiPierdomenico 1 (correct)
Handley 0 (he kicks 1)
Judge 0 (he kicks 1)
Kennedy 0 (he kicks 1)
Loveridge 1 (he kicks 0)
Robertson 1 (correct)
Rushed 2 (should be 1)

All Hawthorn's behinds are in this video in order -
Buckenara
Kennedy
Robertson
Judge
Byrne (almost goal of the year)
Dipper
Rushed
Buckenara
Handley



All other scores align with records including all of North's.

Summary -

1986 Rnd 2 NM v Haw - Robert Handley plus 1 behind, Ken Judge plus 1 behind, John Kennedy plus 1 behind, Michael Byrne minus 1 behind, Richard Loveridge minus 1 behind, 'Rushed for Haw by NM' minus 1 behind.