Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[WhiteHartLane23]

Tom Fox (Carlton) was later a WA parliamentarian so was a prominent public figure.
However, his date of birth is recorded with three different values in public sources

• Australianfootball.com and AFL tables have 21 September 1876
• Blueseum and wikipedia have 3 October 1876
• WA Parliamentary Member Register has 23 October 1876

Vic BDM confirms an 1876 birth (Vic Birth 1876/25895) in Scarsdale, however I can’t see any birth notice in Trove.
Cemetery records / death notices don’t give an exact birth date either

Ideally we would have a consistent birth date across all sources – and my gut feel is WA Parliament record is most likely to be accurate – but would be great if anyone could find something to confirm which date is correct

 

[stemline]

All references for the 1982 Qualifying Final (Carl v Haw) have Hawthorn's Colin Robertson registering 2 behinds and John Kennedy none. There were no Rushed behinds awarded to Hawthorn in this match. Under the interpretations of the day the behind at the midway point of the below video was given to the player. In this case the wrong player.



Summary -

1982 QF (Carl v Haw), Colin Robertson minus 1 behind, John Kennedy plus 1 behind.

FWIW, I am only going through Hawthorn games, but I am keeping an eye on oppo goals & behinds as well. So far in general they seem to be more accurate than Hawthorn's!

Where the relevant footage doesn't already exist on youtube, I will upload it per above, however the person I am sourcing games from doesn't want me to put them on youtube in full.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Doug Palmer (Geelong) has recorded DOB of 23 June 1929 at AFL Tables and australianfootball.com but someone updated his birth date to 23 Jun 1930 on wikipedia some years ago.

It appears that the 1930 date is correct:
Newspaper articles that list his age support 1930 date: 1, 2
Cemetery record and gravestone both have 1930

Summary: DOB for Doug Palmer to be changed to 23 June 1930 rather than 23 June 1929
Oliver G, *Paul*

 

[rbartlett]

Summary:
Jack O'Keefe (Melb) guernsey number for Rd 16 1939 needs to be changed from No. 29 to No. 12

*Paul* Oliver G Supermercado

 

[Supermercado]

I'm not making a judgement on which source is right, but the Sunday Observer 08/04/1979 stats for Round 1, 1979 have some differences to those shown on AFL Tables.

Just for the Melbourne players...

AFL Tables	Sunday Observer
Steven Smith - 5 kicks, 3 handballs	4 kicks, 4 handballs
Graham Gaunt - 4 handballs, 1 free for	3 handballs, 4 frees for
Robert Flower - 9 handballs, 4 frees for	8 handballs, 1 free for
Shane Grambeau - zero hitouts	2 hitouts
Gerald Healy - 3 frees against	2 frees against
Andrew Moir - 1 free for	2 frees for
Phil Carman - 14 kicks	12 kicks
Shane Fitzsimmons - 9 handballs	3 handballs
Garry Baker - 2 frees for, 11 hitouts	1 free for, 12 hitouts
Ray Biffin - 2 frees for, 1 hitout	4 frees for, zero hitouts
Henry Coles - 5 handballs, 4 frees for, 1 free against	2 handballs, 2 frees for, 2 against
Carl Ditterich - 7 handballs, 2 frees for, 17 hitouts	1 handball, 4 frees for, 16 hitouts
Maurice Wingate - 2 handballs, 4 frees for	6 handballs, 2 frees for
Greg Wells - 20 kicks, 6 handballs, 2 frees for	19 kicks, 3 handballs, 3 frees for
Ken Roberts - 3 handballs, 3 frees for, zero behinds	2 handballs, 1 free for, 1 behind
Tony Martyn - 1 free for, 0 behinds	0 frees for, 1 behind

The biggest discrepancy is handballs - AFL Tables has a total of 87 and Sunday Observer has 70. Two of the three rushed behinds shown on AFL Tables have been assigned to Roberts and Martyn.

I expect there's plenty of other stats from these games that don't match current records, but I'm not going to change anything at my end because I don't know how robust these figures are against the data that was used for AFL Tables.

 

[Oliver G]

I'm not making a judgement on which source is right, but the Sunday Observer 08/04/1979 stats for Round 1, 1979 have some differences to those shown on AFL Tables.

Just for the Melbourne players...

AFL Tables	Sunday Observer
Steven Smith - 5 kicks, 3 handballs	4 kicks, 4 handballs
Graham Gaunt - 4 handballs, 1 free for	3 handballs, 4 frees for
Robert Flower - 9 handballs, 4 frees for	8 handballs, 1 free for
Shane Grambeau - zero hitouts	2 hitouts
Gerald Healy - 3 frees against	2 frees against
Andrew Moir - 1 free for	2 frees for
Phil Carman - 14 kicks	12 kicks
Shane Fitzsimmons - 9 handballs	3 handballs
Garry Baker - 2 frees for, 11 hitouts	1 free for, 12 hitouts
Ray Biffin - 2 frees for, 1 hitout	4 frees for, zero hitouts
Henry Coles - 5 handballs, 4 frees for, 1 free against	2 handballs, 2 frees for, 2 against
Carl Ditterich - 7 handballs, 2 frees for, 17 hitouts	1 handball, 4 frees for, 16 hitouts
Maurice Wingate - 2 handballs, 4 frees for	6 handballs, 2 frees for
Greg Wells - 20 kicks, 6 handballs, 2 frees for	19 kicks, 3 handballs, 3 frees for
Ken Roberts - 3 handballs, 3 frees for, zero behinds	2 handballs, 1 free for, 1 behind
Tony Martyn - 1 free for, 0 behinds	0 frees for, 1 behind

The biggest discrepancy is handballs - AFL Tables has a total of 87 and Sunday Observer has 70. Two of the three rushed behinds shown on AFL Tables have been assigned to Roberts and Martyn.

I expect there's plenty of other stats from these games that don't match current records, but I'm not going to change anything at my end because I don't know how robust these figures are against the data that was used for AFL Tables.

I believe AFL Tables data for matches in the 1970s is primarily sourced from Inside Football, so unless there is a tape available of the entire match we will never truly know how accurate either source is.

This was the big issue with stats before Champion Data got the licence in 1999, as often it would be one person (maybe two) recording the numbers live from the ground, so there will be substantial errors in most matches where there are stats from the 60s to the 90s. CD have actually redone a dozen or so matches (off tape) from the 70s to the 90s and there were differences from the Inside Football stats for pretty much every player.

These days there are at least half a dozen CD staff at each match along with another couple at CD HQ reviewing the match live for errors. No match will ever be 100% accurate but for matches 1999 onwards it's about as close as we'll get.

Goals and behinds are a different story though as they can often be cross-referenced with Footy Records. As I understand it Col H sourced filled-in Footy Records to collate player behinds for matches from the 40s and 50s.

So for the R1 1979 match, you mentioned that there were discrepancies between the Sunday Observer and Inside Football for behinds, if we could locate a filled-in Footy Record for that match that might give us a better idea of the true answer. It could be simply down to the person doing the numbers for the Sunday Observer having a different interpretation of what a rushed behind is than the person at Inside Football.

 

[rbartlett]

Summary:

Dick Reynolds (Ess) wore Number 4 for the Rd 13 1937 match vs Melbourne, as he left his usual Number 3 guernsey home.
*Paul* Oliver G and Stephen Rodgers will need to make that change.

He also kicked a goal that day, meaning he has one less goal assigned to him under Number 3.

 

[rbartlett]

Summary:

Ron Cooper (Carl) wore No. 13 in the Rd 7 1935 drawn match v Footscray instead of his usual No. 19




He also kicked 0.7 in this game as per below.

*Paul* Oliver G and Stephen Rodgers.

 

[rbartlett]

Incomplete research.

10 North Melbourne players had guernsey number changes for Rd 12 1939 v Footscray.
We know which players were affected, however we don't know yet what the new numbers they wore.

 

[rbartlett]

Summary:

Harold Lambert (Ess) , played the first half of Rd 5 1947 v Carlton in No. 29, and the second half in his usual No. 5
*Paul* Oliver G Stephen Rodgers if you have the ability to list 2 numbers in your records, then do so.

 

[rbartlett]

Summary:

3 Carlton players wore different numbers for 1947 Semi Final v Essendon
Ern Henfry wore No 2 ('usually worn by Redmond'),
Jack Howell wore No 4
Fred Davies wore No 34 (usually worn by Carr)

However, I also interpret the article below to say that those changes happened at the interval (ie: half time).
Meaning that Henry (No 6), Howell (No 13), and Davies (No 28) wore their usual guernsey for part of the match.

*Paul* Oliver G Stephen Rodgers , and the Carlton guy whose handle I have forgotten

 

[rbartlett]

Summary:

Don Kemp (Nth) wore No. 30 during Rd 8 1947 v Hawthorn instead of his usual No. 17
Unsure yet if Edwards , the 19th Man who usual wore No.30 made it onto the field, and if so what number.
*Paul* Oliver G and Stephen Rodgers

 

[Gibbsy]

These are great finds rbartlett ! How are you coming across them? Just searching combinations of "guernsey" and "number" on Trove?

 

[Oliver G]

I've had a look going through Newspapers.com and have come across four jumper change incidents...

Summary

R7 1969 - Rex Hunt (Richmond) wore #16 instead of #5 due to Rex leaving his gear at home.

GF 1965 - Kevin Egan (Essendon) wore #42 instead of #43.

R13 1940 - Albert Pannam (Collingwood) wore #22 instead of #20 due to a thermos of tea being spilled over his #20 jumper. Pannam borrowed Harold Powell's second jumper and thus both players wore #22.

R1 1935 - Several Fitzroy jumpers were left behind at Fitzroy and so...
Wally Gray wore #3 instead of #22
Brian Goodhart wore #8 instead of #16
Noel Fisher wore #24 instead of #25
Alf Callick wore #11 instead of #31

AF has been updated. *Paul* and Stephen Rodgers will need to amend all four, while rbartlett will need to amend just the Rex Hunt one.

Sources are posted below...

 

[rbartlett]

These are great finds rbartlett ! How are you coming across them? Just searching combinations of "guernsey" and "number" on Trove?

Yep pretty much thats it.

 

[rbartlett]

Summary;
Ted Bryce (Ess) wore Number 30, not Number 31 (as AFLTables currently says) for Rd 14 1937 v Geelong

It raises other questions.. if 'his own number officially was 9', then it may be possible his Rd 15 -18 1937 matches are wearing No.9, but I am unsure of that.
And Dick Eason's (Ess) number apparently is normally 30 according to that article, though currently AFLTables etc has it as 7 for the 1937, so something to keep an eye out on there. (I wouldn't suggest changing Eason's details yet)

*Paul* Oliver G and Stephen Rodgers

 

[rbartlett]

Summary:
Len Murphy (Coll) wore his brother Frank's No.15 guernsey for Rd 8 1932 vs St Kilda.

*Paul* Oliver G and Stephen Rodgers

 

[rbartlett]

Summary

Ambrose Palmer wore No. 38 instead of his usual No 24 in Rd 16 1938 v Melbourne




*Paul* Oliver G and stephen rodgers

 

[rbartlett]

Summary

Vic Fisher (Ess) wore No. 34 , rather than No. 1 in the 1949 SF v Collingwood as he left his guernsey at home.



*Paul* Oliver G and Rodgers

 

[rbartlett]

Summary

Jack Green (Coll) wore No. 31 instead of his usual No. 9 in Rd 3 1946 v Nth




*Paul* Oliver G and Rodgers

-------

Summary
Wylie Chambers (Sth) wore No 9 for Rd 3 1946 v Footscray

The reference above to 'as at St Kilda many spectators were perplexed by the change in numbers', is referring to Rd 3 1946 South v Footscray.
If the current setup at AFL Tables is correct then ...
"Chambers came on wearing Lugg's guernsey" means Chambers wore No 9 for the match,

Still unknown:
I notice it says there were 3 alterations... though doesnt list the other two guernsey changes for South are. That may appear in another newspaper article somewhere

 

[rbartlett]

Summary:

Roy Moore wore No. 23 in Rd 1 1939 v Carlton





*Paul* Oliver G and Rodgers

 

[rbartlett]

Summary

Gordon Hocking wore No. 7 in Rd 6 1952 v Footscray
There were two Collingwood players who wore No.7 in this game, the other would be George Hams according to AFL Tables.
It looks like he started the game was his usual No.1 as per the below article. So I suggest both No 1. and No. 7 during this match





*Paul* , @OliverG, Rodgers

 

[rbartlett]

Summary:

Pat Twomey (Coll) wore No. 38 in Rd 9 1953 v Melbourne


*Paul* Oliver G and Rodgers

 

[rbartlett]

Summary

Graham Arthur (Haw) wore No. 6 in the second half of the Rd 13 1956 match v Richmond
So he wore No.2 and No.6 in the game


*Paul* Oliver G and Rodgers

 

[rbartlett]

Summary

Brighton Diggins (Carl) wore No.33 instead of his usual No. 17 in Semi Final v Essendon 1936


*Paul* Oliver G and Rodgers