Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[rbartlett]

After 4 years, we are nearing the end of documenting where possible every Richmond Reserves player.
This project couldn't have been anywhere as complete without the help of 35Daicos and former player Peter Foot.

There are however about 10% of first names/initials missing, so I thought I would post some here in the hope that in your travels you may stumble across a name. The ? means the first initial is unknown. The year in brackets is there Reserve year at Richmond.

Firstly, here is the 1970s-1990s players
1970s

B Avery (1971)

T Ashton/Aston (1976)

? Baker (1976) its Peter.

I Beasy (1971 from Woorinen)

? Begg/Pegg (1978)

Russell Davies (1979)

? Harris (1972)

J Houghton (1973)

? Keighran (1972, possible first name Rod)

J Lamb (1976, not Robert)

G Maloney (1975) its Gerard

? Morrison (1975) we believe initial is P.

G Roberts (1974)

R Sawyer (1972)

L Smith (1972)


1981

? Byrne (1981)

? Hudson (1981, is it A Hudson from Sandy Bay who was under consideration back in 1976)

F Scarce (1982)



1990

? Grundell (1992, perhaps first name is Duncan)
? Corcoran (1998)
? Fortnam (1998)
? McHardy (1998)
? Miles (1998)
S Milne (1998) (its not StKilda's Stephen Milne

Stephen Milne

Age

44

Ht

176cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.9

3star

K

9.1

4star

HB

2.8

2star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.7

4star

G

2.1

5star

No current season stats available

D

12.4

4star

K

10.6

4star

HB

1.8

2star

M

3.6

4star

T

0.8

3star

G

1.4

5star

is it)
? Morrison (1998)
B Moyle (1998)
D Robbins (1998)
? Silver (1998)
? Van Dem Ham (1998)

 

[the croucher]

A general comment about the recent run of "number change" posts..

Wonderful to see and have confirmed the value of Trove newspapers, especially as a few of "new finds" have come from the recently digitised issues of The Sun News-Pictorial (1922-54, 1956).

 

[Bandit55]

After 4 years, we are nearing the end of documenting where possible every Richmond Reserves player.
This project couldn't have been anywhere as complete without the help of 35Daicos and former player Peter Foot.

There are however about 10% of first names/initials missing, so I thought I would post some here in the hope that in your travels you may stumble across a name. The ? means the first initial is unknown. The year in brackets is there Reserve year at Richmond.

Firstly, here is the 1970s-1990s players
1970s

B Avery (1971)

T Ashton/Aston (1976)

? Baker (1976)

I Beasy (1971 from Woorinen)

? Begg/Pegg (1978)

? Davies (1979)

? Harris (1972)

J Houghton (1973)

? Keighran (1972, possible first name Rod)

J Lamb (1976, not Robert)

G Maloney (1975)

? Morrison (1975)

G Roberts (1974)

R Sawyer (1972)

L Smith (1972)


1981

? Byrne (1981)

? Hudson (1981, is it A Hudson from Sandy Bay who was under consideration back in 1976)

F Scarce (1982)



1990

? Grundell (1992, perhaps first name is Duncan)

? Begg/Pegg (1978)

My guess would be Stephen Begg from Red Cliffs.

 

[rbartlett]

Summary:
According to this article, Bob Syme (Ess) wore Number 30 in the 1951 Grand Final
(AFLTables has him as No. 26, so too the footy record of the day)

*Paul* Oliver G rodgers

 

[rbartlett]

Summary:
Jim Stewart (Nth) wore No.2 in Rd 18 1939 v Geelong
Eric Clark (Nth) wore No. 14 in Rd 189 1939 v Geelong (however our records may already show that)



*Paul* Oliver G , Rodgers

 

[35Daicos]

I've had a look going through Newspapers.com and have come across four jumper change incidents...

Summary
R13 1940 - Albert Pannam (Collingwood) wore #22 instead of #20 due to a thermos of tea being spilled over his #20 jumper. Pannam borrowed Harold Powell's second jumper and thus both players wore #22.
AF has been updated. *Paul* and Stephen Rodgers will need to amend all four, while rbartlett will need to amend just the Rex Hunt one.

Sources are posted below...

View attachment 1919349

The AFL chaps have known about this one for quite a long time and we have it shown correctly on Collingwood Forever:

It was discussed on here a few years ago: Resource - List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

Here's two more Collingwood ones (that may not have been mentioned on here): 1938 Rd. 3 vs. Richmond:-

1945 Preliminary Final vs. Carlton:

The AFL folks will be aware of these ones.

Unfortunately, if you're going to worry about changing player numbers for just the odd game like these ones, it really is only the 'tip of the iceberg'! For example, with Collingwood players, in 1938 Alby Pannam's number is meant to have been 18 for the entire season, and Pat Fricker's was (normally) 11. Jack Regan was #20, Des Fothergill 9. Old records won't have that, though the AFL's records now will. I suspect if you asked the AFL chaps they'd reveal they've made lots of changes regarding jumper numbers for all/many of the old clubs in fairly recent times, and getting them all updated correctly would be a massive job!

Oliver G
*Paul*

 

[rbartlett]

After 4 years, we are nearing the end of documenting where possible every Richmond Reserves player.
This project couldn't have been anywhere as complete without the help of 35Daicos and former player Peter Foot.

There are however about 10% of first names/initials missing, so I thought I would post some here in the hope that in your travels you may stumble across a name. The ? means the first initial is unknown. The year in brackets is there Reserve year at Richmond.

Firstly, here is the 1970s-1990s players
1970s

B Avery (1971)

T Ashton/Aston (1976)

? Baker (1976) its Peter.

I Beasy (1971 from Woorinen)

? Begg/Pegg (1978)

Russell Davies (1979)

? Harris (1972)

J Houghton (1973)

? Keighran (1972, possible first name Rod)

J Lamb (1976, not Robert)

G Maloney (1975) its Gerard

? Morrison (1975) we believe initial is P.

G Roberts (1974)

R Sawyer (1972)

L Smith (1972)


1981

? Byrne (1981)

? Hudson (1981, is it A Hudson from Sandy Bay who was under consideration back in 1976)

F Scarce (1982)



1990

? Grundell (1992, perhaps first name is Duncan)
? Corcoran (1998)
? Fortnam (1998)
? McHardy (1998)
? Miles (1998)
S Milne (1998) (its not StKilda's Stephen Milne is it)
? Morrison (1998)
B Moyle (1998)
D Robbins (1998)
? Silver (1998)
? Van Dem Ham (1998)

A few first names have been found so thank you all. They have been crossed off the above list.
There's a bunch of 1998 Reserve players whose first names we don't know. They were most likely top up players. They are below
? Grundell (1992, perhaps first name is Duncan, or is it Simon the Leopold goalkicking champion)
? Corcoran (1998)
? Fortnam (1998) I'm guessing its Chris Fortnam from Dandenong Stingrays at the time
? McHardy (1998) It's Luke McHardy as per Blueseum
? Miles (1998)
S Milne (1998) (its StKilda's Stephen Milne)
? Morrison (1998)
B Moyle (1998) is Brett Moyle from Oakleigh Charges, and StK
D Robbins (1998) is it David Robbins from Springvale Scorpions later Melbourne FC
? Silver (1998)
? Van Dem Ham (1998) I'm guessing its Daniel Van Dem Ham from Gippsland Power at the time

 

[RedmanWasHere]

A few first names have been found so thank you all. They have been crossed off the above list.
There's a bunch of 1998 Reserve players whose first names we don't know. They were most likely top up players. They are below
? Grundell (1992, perhaps first name is Duncan)
? Corcoran (1998)
? Fortnam (1998) I'm guessing its Chris Fortnam from Dandenong Stingrays at the time
? McHardy (1998) It's Luke McHardy as per Blueseum
? Miles (1998)
S Milne (1998) (its not StKilda's Stephen Milne is it)
? Morrison (1998)
B Moyle (1998) is Brett Moyle from Oakleigh Charges, and StK
D Robbins (1998)
? Silver (1998)
? Van Dem Ham (1998) I'm guessing its Daniel Van Dem Ham from Gippsland Power at the time

Just wondering if Patrick Steinfort or any other Tigers who were on Richmond's list in 1998 with 0 senior games would know.

Also, could the D Robbins be David Robbins?

Not sure how old David would've been when on Melbourne's rookie list a few years later.

 

[Gibbsy]

A few first names have been found so thank you all. They have been crossed off the above list.
There's a bunch of 1998 Reserve players whose first names we don't know. They were most likely top up players. They are below
? Grundell (1992, perhaps first name is Duncan, or is it Simon the Leopold goalkicking champion)
? Corcoran (1998)
? Fortnam (1998) I'm guessing its Chris Fortnam from Dandenong Stingrays at the time
? McHardy (1998) It's Luke McHardy as per Blueseum
? Miles (1998)
S Milne (1998) (its StKilda's Stephen Milne)
? Morrison (1998)
B Moyle (1998) is Brett Moyle from Oakleigh Charges, and StK
D Robbins (1998) is it David Robbins from Springvale Scorpions later Melbourne FC
? Silver (1998)
? Van Dem Ham (1998) I'm guessing its Daniel Van Dem Ham from Gippsland Power at the time

Corcoran – I'm fairly confident it's Leigh Corcoran who played with the Murray Bushrangers in 1998



He was a solid player – two best and fairests at Wodonga Raiders, and a VFL Reserves premiership with Williamstown in 2002.
Would make sense if he was in the area where the Tigers reserves were playing for one week.

EDIT: Maybe not...? I doubt he was named to play in Melbourne on a Friday night and then Wangaratta on a Saturday morning. But stranger things have happened. This was from the 15 May 1998 edition of The Age.

---

I now think it's much more likely to be Andrew Corcoran of Old Ivanhoe.





Another quality player, named on the half-forward flank in the Old Ivanhoe team of the decade in both the 1990s and the 2000s (which gives an indication that he wouldn't have been 'too old' in 1998 to be our man).

Perhaps most interesting is that it appears that both a Corcoran and a Miles (another 'missing' man) also turned out for North Melbourne reserves that same year on at least one occasion.



However, that Miles appears to be Dion Miles who played two senior games for North that year, so he wasn't going to be running out in the ressies for an oppo club.

 

[rbartlett]

Corcoran – I'm fairly confident it's Leigh Corcoran who played with the Murray Bushrangers in 1998

View attachment 1922814

He was a solid player – two best and fairests at Wodonga Raiders, and a VFL Reserves premiership with Williamstown in 2002.
Would make sense if he was in the area where the Tigers reserves were playing for one week.

EDIT: Maybe not...? I doubt he was named to play in Melbourne on a Friday night and then Wangaratta on a Saturday morning. But stranger things have happened. This was from the 15 May 1998 edition of The Age.

View attachment 1922831

View attachment 1922832

View attachment 1922835

---

I now think it's much more likely to be Andrew Corcoran of Old Ivanhoe.

View attachment 1922848

View attachment 1922851

Another quality player, named on the half-forward flank in the Old Ivanhoe team of the decade in both the 1990s and the 2000s (which gives an indication that he wouldn't have been 'too old' in 1998 to be our man).

Perhaps most interesting is that it appears that both a Corcoran and a Miles (another 'missing' man) also turned out for North Melbourne reserves that same year on at least one occasion.

View attachment 1922857

However, that Miles appears to be Dion Miles who played two senior games for North that year, so he wasn't going to be running out in the ressies for an oppo club.

View attachment 1922881

Cheers mate.

The AFL has contacted me and they hgave some files on their database that may fill in the games (and maybe prove your theories) so I'm gonna check with them on Tuesday. Cheers

 

[RedmanWasHere]

David Robbins from Springvale was recruited to Melbourne in the 2001 Rookie Draft.

He was 21 years old when taken.

 

[Gibbsy]

Cheers mate.

The AFL has contacted me and they hgave some files on their database that may fill in the games (and maybe prove your theories) so I'm gonna check with them on Tuesday. Cheers

Sorry I wasn't much help. A bit of research on the fly.

Yes, I saw Patrick Keane's tweet to you later on. Begs the question, what else is in that database!! I'd love to know. Keep us posted

 

[stemline]

Some more Hawthorn incorrect behinds...

For 1983 R08 (Haw v Ess), all references currently have Dermott Brereton and Rodney Eade kicking no behinds, Russell Shields kicking one and 3 Rushed for Hawthorn.

In the below vid, Eade and Brereton kick points. In the rest of the match Russell Shields does not kick a point, and there are only two discernible Rushed behinds for Hawthorn, with all other player records aligning.



Summary -

1983 R08 (Haw v Ess) - Dermott Brereton plus 1 behind, Rodney Eade plus 1 behind, Russell Shields minus 1 behind, 'Rushed' minus 1 behind.

 

[stemline]

1983 R13 Syd v Haw -

For Sydney - All references have Max Kruse kicking 2 behinds and Anthony Daniher 1. In the below video Kruse kicks behinds at 0:05, 1:00 & 1:20. Daniher doesn't kick a behind in this game.

For Hawthorn - All references have Russell Greene kicking 0 behinds, John Kennedy kicking 1, Chris Langford kicking 2 and Michael Tuck kicking 1. In the below video, Greene kicks a behind at 0:40; and Kennedy kicks a behind at 0:25 & 1:45. Langford only kicks one behind in this game, and Tuck none. For clarity, there is only one Rushed behind recorded for Hawthorn, included at 1:35.



Summary -

1983 R13 (Syd v Haw) -
SYD - Max Kruse plus 1 behind, Anthony Daniher minus 1 behind.
HAW - Russell Greene plus 1 behind, John Kennedy plus 1 behind, Chris Langford minus 1 behind, Michael Tuck minus 1 behind.

 

[stemline]

Behinds - 1984 R04 Haw v StK

For St Kilda - All references have Max Crow kicking 3 behinds and Danny Frawley none.

In the below video Frawley kicks a behind at 0:05. Crow only kicks 2 behinds in this game, St Kilda's 8th and 10th. Saints aren't credited with any rushed behinds.

For Hawthorn - All references have Michael Byrne kicking 3 behinds, Peter Curran 3, Michael Tuck 3, Robert DiPierdomenico 1 and Michael McCarthy none.

In the video below Michael Tuck kicks 4 behinds (at 0:20, 0:55, 13:30 & 17:30); Robert DiPierdomenico kicks 2 behinds (at 0:30 and 1:05); Michael McCarthy kicks 1 behind (at 1:20). Michael Byrne only kicks 2 behinds for the game, Hawthorn's 11th and 21st, and Peter Curran only kicks 1 behind for the game, Hawthorn's 6th. For clarity, the one rushed behind allocated to Hawthorn is at 0:45.



Summary -

1984 R40 (Haw v StK) -
STK - Danny Frawley plus 1 behind, Max Crow minus 1 behind.
HAW - Robert DiPierdomenico plus 1 behind, Michael McCarthy plus 1 behind, Michael Tuck plus 1 behind, Peter Curran minus 2 behinds, Michael Byrne minus 1 behind.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Jack Dalton (Fitz) has death date 12 March 1923 on wikipedia/australianfootball.com
However death notice in The Argus shows actual death date was 8 March 1923

Summary: Death date for Jack Dalton to be 8 March 1923 rather than 12 March 1923
Oliver G

 

[stemline]

Here's a goal inaccuracy...

...and I feel a bit like shooting Bambi cos we gotta take a goal off Michael Tuck



1984 R05 - Footscray v Hawthorn

All internet references inexplicably have Michael Tuck kicking 3 goals and Michael McCarthy kicking 2. However McCarthy kicked 3 (Hawthorn's 1st, 13th and 21st) and Tuck 2 (Hawthorn's 10th and 11th).

The papers the next day have it correct with McCarthy kicking 3 (at least The Age did) as does the Footy Record the following week.



Summary -

1984 R05 (Foot v Haw) - Michael McCarthy plus 1 goal, Michael Tuck minus 1 goal.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

DAMN!

From 320 goals down to 319.

At least it's not as heavy as Cliff Rankin going from 400 to 399 goals.

 

[stemline]

Behinds 1983 Round 20 Haw v Carl -

All references have Hawthorn's Chris Mew kicking 3 behinds, Chris Langford none and Hawthorn's score including 4 Rushed behinds.

The below video shows that Mew kicked 4 behinds, and Langford 1. There are only 2 Rushed behinds in Hawthorn's score, and all other credited behinds align.



Summary -

1983 R20 (Haw v Carl) - Chris Langford plus 1 behind, Chris Mew plus 1 behind, 'Rushed' (by Carlton for Hawthorn) minus 2 behinds.

 

[stemline]

Behinds 1984 R09 Haw v NM

All references have Hawthorn's John Kennedy kicking 3 behinds and Peter Russo kicking 1.

Video below shows Kennedy kicking 4 behinds. Viewing the rest of the match, Peter Russo doesn't kick any, and all others align.



Summary -

1984 R09 Haw v NM - John Kennedy (Haw) plus 1 behind, Peter Russo (Haw) minus 1 behind.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Unrelated to the chatter but condolences go out to Rhett and his family following the death of Rhett's mum (and KB's wife) Denise.

 

[rbartlett]

Unrelated to the chatter but condolences go out to Rhett and his family following the death of Rhett's mum (and KB's wife) Denise.

Thanks for the kind thoughts.

 

[rbartlett]

Summary:
Rd 10 1940, Jack Scott (Richmond) who normally wears Number 6, wore no number at all for this game.

Oliver G

 

[stemline]

Behinds correction for 1984 R12 Haw v Ess PART 1

All references for this game have Hawthorn's Russell Greene kicking 2 behinds, Dermott Brereton kicking 1 behind, Michael McCarthy kicking none, with 1 Rushed behind (for Hawthorn by Essendon).

The below video shows Brereton kicking 2 behinds (Hawthorn's 2nd and 10th) and McCarthy kicking 1 (Hawthorn's 16th). Russell Greene only kicks 1 behind in this game (Hawthorn's 14th) and there are no Rushed behinds for Hawthorn. All other behinds align.



Summary -

1984 Rnd 12 Haw v Ess - Dermott Brereton plus 1 behind, Michael McCarthy plus 1 behind, Russell GReene minus 1 behind, 'Rushed' (for Haw by Ess) minus 1 behind.

 

[Gibbsy]

Behinds correction for 1984 R12 Haw v Ess PART 1

All references for this game have Hawthorn's Russell Greene kicking 2 behinds, Dermott Brereton kicking 1 behind, Michael McCarthy kicking none, with 1 Rushed behind (for Hawthorn by Essendon).

The below video shows Brereton kicking 2 behinds (Hawthorn's 2nd and 10th) and McCarthy kicking 1 (Hawthorn's 16th). Russell Greene only kicks 1 behind in this game (Hawthorn's 14th) and there are no Rushed behinds for Hawthorn. All other behinds align.



Summary -

1984 Rnd 12 Haw v Ess - Dermott Brereton plus 1 behind, Michael McCarthy plus 1 behind, Russell GReene minus 1 behind, 'Rushed' (for Haw by Ess) minus 1 behind.

At least tell me you're having fun re-watching all this 'glory days' football so closely