Banter Geelong V Richmond - GO!
- Thread starter Wosh
- Start date
- Tagged users None
It's foolish to prefer goals over total goal and score involvements. It's like having one topping on your pizza. You are only having cheese on your pizza. I'm throwing a couple of other interesting and relevant ones on.Why would you use the votes for the awards but not the awards themselves. Wtf logic is that
And like I said as soon as somebody introduces an ex player as a x time assister. I’ll consider changing my mind.
The votes for the awards? For Brownlow and Coaches votes for forwards it absolutely makes sense as it is incredibly difficult for them to win those awards. Which would be like not using disposal counts over a career, instead only using "times they finished with the most disposals in a season".
- May 5, 2016
- 44,462
- 49,468
- AFL Club
- Geelong
As opposed to the Coleman medal which is literally the same thing. It’s not an award for actual excellence it’s an award for someone kicking goals mate.
Ok, let’s take your little mate Dustin Martin back when he gave a toss about his team and was trying. What was it that made those games and the awards he won them in so great? Did he get them for just getting some numbers? They were awards based on excellence.
The Coleman Medal isn’t an award it is a medal.
It isn’t voted on by anyone, it isn’t decided on by anyone, it doesn’t reward excellence, though there is no doubt it takes some to achieve it.
It’s a tally. It’s not a quality, it’s based purely on someone achieving a metric. It doesn’t measure impact on a game, when he did anything, what nett effect it had on his team, how many more he could have kicked if he hadn’t given some off or tried to give them off, how many times he attracted two defenders so someone else was free. It’s a number. And it takes skill to achieve it.
I’d guess higher. Closer to 95%.
Now do goal averages and goal awards and even B&Fs since you value that so much. It’s a landslide in Jacks favour.
Just give it up, Jacks got a better Resume. He’s been the best forward in the league 3 times against 1.
Hawkins is a great runner up, it’s the Geelong way. It’s sort of poetic that his greatest strength is assisting
Coleman medal doesn’t necessarily mean best forward in the league. It means most goals scored by an individual.
Can you really not see the difference?
Cleansweep17
Premiership Player
- Dec 20, 2023
- 3,438
- 1,627
- AFL Club
- Richmond
Great I like how you mentioned Brownlow votes, Dusty is now 8th most consistent player of all time and has the best ever season.
Cleansweep17
Premiership Player
- Dec 20, 2023
- 3,438
- 1,627
- AFL Club
- Richmond
Dude you are literally using total goals and assists as a metric. So wtf are you talking about.
Diversionary tactics are just what the term implies: tactics used to try to derail and silence an argument rather than address it.Great I like how you mentioned Brownlow votes, Dusty is now 8th most consistent player of all time and has the best ever season.
Once again I will reiterate that my gold standard approach of:
-Total goals
-Total goal assists
-Total score involvements
-Total Brownlow votes
-Total Coaches votes
-A sum total of the above 5 categories
Giving 6 categories that 2 players being compared can win/lose on:
Is a reasonable way to assess the output of modern key forwards.
It is important to note that Jack Riewoldt, did very well on these metrics and there is no shame in having a marginal loss on each of them to Hawkins.
Cleansweep17
Premiership Player
- Dec 20, 2023
- 3,438
- 1,627
- AFL Club
- Richmond
So since Dusty got 8th all time career Brownlow votes is he the 8th most consistent player of all time? You’ve stuffed yourself now haven’t you.
Meh your selective stats don’t mean anything, Jack is the one with the better Resume. The end.
- May 5, 2016
- 44,462
- 49,468
- AFL Club
- Geelong
So are you so so if you’re going down that path that’s fine but don’t get the shits and start pulling medals and awards out when they are, in this case, exactly the same thing. If you want to hang onto that as your only defence of little Jack, then fine. But if his medal is based only on his total of something then people will simply say ‘ok, look at his rival’s total of this. And this. And this. And this. And this. And all these other things that he had a higher total of.’
Diversionary tactics are just what the term implies: tactics used to try to derail and silence an argument rather than address it.
I'm not sure why you're trying to bring this back to Martin, like everything. My metric for key forwards involved 6 different categories and scoring metrics are almost always tallied i.e total career goals - seen across all sports.
For midfielders I have a neat system too tailored to what defines how many elite seasons they had. Coaches votes are better than Brownlow votes, by the way. Number of seasons in the top 10 for those, or 2.9+ coaches votes per game very precisely picks out Uber elite midfielder seasons, which can be tallied and cross checked against AA selections and B&F victories to give a similar summed total.
- May 5, 2016
- 44,462
- 49,468
- AFL Club
- Geelong
Seems like it worries you a lot more than it worries anyone else
| Brownlow top 10 | Coaches top 10 | 2.9+ coaches votes average | AA selections | Total | Average | |
| Ablett Jnr | 6 | 8 | 9 | 8 | 31 | 7.75 |
| Dangerfield | 9 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 30 | 7.5 |
| Buckley | 7 | 7 | 14 | 7 | ||
| R.Harvey | 6 | 8 | 14 | 7 | ||
| Carey | 6 | 7 | 13 | 6.5 | ||
| Judd | 7 | 6 | 7 | 6 | 26 | 6.5 |
| Cousins | 7 | 6 | 13 | 6.5 | ||
| Ricciuto | 4 | 8 | 12 | 6 | ||
| West | 7 | 5 | 12 | 6 | ||
| Pendlebury | 4 | 5 | 8 | 6 | 23 | 5.75 |
| J.Selwood | 5 | 4 | 7 | 6 | 22 | 5.5 |
| Bontempelli | 5 | 5 | 6 | 5 | 21 | 5.25 |
| Voss | 5 | 5 | 10 | 5 | ||
| Swan | 5 | 4 | 5 | 5 | 19 | 4.75 |
| Franklin | 4 | 2 | 5 | 8 | 19 | 4.75 |
| S.Mitchell | 5 | 4 | 7 | 3 | 19 | 4.75 |
| Hocking | 5 | 4 | 9 | 4.5 | ||
| Martin | 6 | 3 | 5 | 4 | 18 | 4.5 |
| McLeod | 4 | 5 | 9 | 4.5 | ||
| Hird | 3 | 5 | 8 | 4 | ||
| Matera | 3 | 5 | 8 | 4 | ||
| Crawford | 4 | 4 | 8 | 4 | ||
| B.Harvey | 4 | 4 | 8 | 4 | ||
| Petracca | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 16 | 4 |
| Kennedy SYD | 4 | 4 | 5 | 3 | 16 | 4 |
| Neale | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 16 | 4 |
| Pavlich | 4 | 2 | 3 | 6 | 15 | 3.75 |
| N.Riewoldt | 3 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 15 | 3.75 |
| Fyfe | 3 | 3 | 6 | 3 | 15 | 3.75 |
You wanted a midfielder comparison, these categories I define as being a star midfielder of the competition. Everything will need an arbitrary cut off point, it is inevitable. But everyone is ranked using the same system so it matters little.
Obviously coaches votes are excluded for older players and the averages calculated from the other categories alone.
I threw the best key forwards in there just out of interest but it is only relevant when comparing to each other rather than midfielders.
This fits quite nicely with the consensus of Martin having 4-5 truly elite seasons, placing him just above Peter Matera and Shane Crawford, around even with Garry Hocking and Andrew McLeod, but just below Voss and Sam Mitchell for time played at a very high level (star midfielder of the comp).
Cleansweep17
Premiership Player
- Dec 20, 2023
- 3,438
- 1,627
- AFL Club
- Richmond
Yeah so I’m using your logic here. Like you said Brownlow and coaches votes are the gold standard.
Dusty has:
The record Brownlow votes in a season
The record Coaches votes in a season
8th all time career Brownlow votes
Idk about all time coaches votes, maybe you could provide that
I mentioned Dusty because you keep trying to say his consistency isn’t great which puts him below other players. Using your own logic, he’s top tier in consistency and THE TOP in peak according to said votes. Glad we can agree.
I provided my comprehensive system for ranking midfielders by number of certifiably elite seasons. It is in the table a few posts above. Please let me know if you have trouble locating it and we can provide assistance.
I am happy with both my systems for key forwards and midfielders of the modern era. Top 10 finishes in the Brownlow and Coaches votes are very, very strong indicators of being a star midfielder of the comp. Especially when it is backed up by AA selection (which typically picks out 12-13 of the best midfielders in the comp).
You are just reeling off a few singular season stats and then wedging career Brownlow votes on the end, while not measuring any other players. I.e you are not providing a system at all.
Cleansweep17
Premiership Player
- Dec 20, 2023
- 3,438
- 1,627
- AFL Club
- Richmond
I can but how many times has a forward won the Coleman and not been selected in the team? I’d imagine it’s a very small %
The Coleman medalist couldn’t even get a bench spot. That’s f’ed.
Cleansweep17
Premiership Player
- Dec 20, 2023
- 3,438
- 1,627
- AFL Club
- Richmond
I use all of it.
Medals are a measurement/reference point to compare against your peers.
For example Hawkins won the Coleman in 2020 with a total of 42 goals. On face value 42 goals isn’t great for a FF BUT it was due to shorter qtr/less games in 2020. Thus 42 goals in 2020 was Uber elite. Would you say Hawkins was the best forward in 2020? Yep, so do I.
Cleansweep17 12 midfielders of the modern era (2005 onwards) have featured more frequently than Martin in the top 10 season leaderboard for the Coaches Votes. These midfielders were/are Gary Ablett, Patrick Dangerfield, Chris Judd, Scott Pendlebury, Joel Selwood, Marcus Bontempelli, Dane Swan, Sam Mitchell, Christian Petracca, Josh Kennedy, Lachie Neale and Clayton Oliver.
Another 6 midfielders cracked the top 10 the same amount of times as Martin (3 times). These midfielders were/are Scott Thompson, Daniel Kerr, Matthew Boyd, Dan Hannebery, Nat Fyfe and Patrick Cripps.
Another 6 midfielders cracked the top 10 the same amount of times as Martin (3 times). These midfielders were/are Scott Thompson, Daniel Kerr, Matthew Boyd, Dan Hannebery, Nat Fyfe and Patrick Cripps.
Last edited:
Cleansweep17
Premiership Player
- Dec 20, 2023
- 3,438
- 1,627
- AFL Club
- Richmond
Awards tell a story.
Most people, including you and me think Dusty was elite for 4-5 seasons, is the best finals player (at least in the AFL era) and had one of the best if not the best single season ever.
His awards is as follows:
4x AAs, 3x NS and 3x finals MVP (both records), 2017 record Brownlow/coaches votes and only players ever to win a flag, NS and Brownlow in the same year.
It literally matches exactly to what people think. This is why I use awards.
Do the above to any player and it pretty much describes their careers. Including GAJ.
And bringing back to my point about Jack and Hawkins. I believe Jack had a better peak and Hawkins had better longevity. This is not crazy rationale but you treat it like it is for some reason.
Last edited:
Cleansweep17
Premiership Player
- Dec 20, 2023
- 3,438
- 1,627
- AFL Club
- Richmond
Read my previous comment. I actually agree with you here. I don’t think Dusty is the 8th most consistent player ever in H&A. I follow my own rules 4xAAs isn’t enough. I just think his record peak and record finals awards outweighs that and you don’t. That’s ok, I think it’s a little weird to disregard those things but you do you.
My table tells a story too. Of how to measure truly elite midfielder seasons and then how to rank midfielders by number of elite seasons. It uses a much more comprehensive approach rather than a binary yes/no for did he win it. If you miss the Brownlow by a singular vote after getting 30, it is fair to say you still had just as elite of a season as if an umpire was more generous with one of your 23 games.
My approach backs up what the average neutral supporter thinks about Martin. That he had 5 elite seasons with 3 brilliant finals series and was a good player otherwise, but lacked elite longevity (both in finals and home and away) that other modern midfielders had. He was still a modern champ and a mediocre run through his 30s doesn't change that. He just burned brightly and quickly as far as his time as a genuine superstar of the comp. Quantifiably analysing things using a number of metrics backs that up.
- May 5, 2016
- 44,462
- 49,468
- AFL Club
- Geelong
Yes I would. You know why? Because in 2020 he head and shoulders above almost every other key forward in the competition for setting up goals.
Not only did he win the Coleman medal so fair play he kicked more goals than everyone else, because he also averaged .33 more goals per game more than everyone else, and he was first in the comp among forwards for goal assists with 1.1 per game. The next best key forward was Jack Darling with 0.83.
No other key forward could average 0.53.
That’s why he was the best key forward, and forward, in the league that year. He was kicking them, and creating them, at a rate that no one else was getting anywhere near, and his team’s game plan was centred around how effective it was.
So combined he was contributing a goal more than Kennedy, and a goal more than Darling. In a truncated match that extrapolates to 1.25 goals more per game. That’s a significant difference over the next best forward per game, and if your team’s game plan is based around that dominance and at very worst you are halving virtually every contest and your smaller blokes are feeding into the space around you then I’d say that’s what’s making you the premier forward in the competition at that time
Cleansweep17
Premiership Player
- Dec 20, 2023
- 3,438
- 1,627
- AFL Club
- Richmond
You use coaches awards which are only awarded for the H&A season. This is the problem. It completely disregards finals.
You also are just using total votes instead of looking at a breakdown per season. This disregards a players peak.
So you’ve disregarded two things using a metric that’s actually valid because you don’t like what it shows. I’m literally fair all round and follow my own rules, you sometimes don’t.
He had 3 superb finals series when his side was the dominant finals force and 5 finals series where he was a non-factor (when Richmond weren't dominant). It still definitely adds to his legacy greatly, but more as a "best 4 years finals run of any modern player" thing rather than a "this makes him the GOAT thing".
Don't take my word for it. Every other neutral supporter agrees. A small sub section of the most one eyed Tigers supporters argue otherwise.
Cleansweep17
Premiership Player
- Dec 20, 2023
- 3,438
- 1,627
- AFL Club
- Richmond
So why didn’t Gryan make at least the AA squad in 2023? I believe he broke/almost broke the record for assists.
Uh uh, for the coaches votes averages I included finals. Otherwise his number of 2.9+ coaches votes average seasons would go down by 2, from memory.
Of course you can't have a top 10 leaderboard done after finals because not every player played 3 finals every season. So the data would be all over the place. Cripps would get overtaken in 2019 by virtue of not playing a final. While Martin in a shorter season in 2020 gets 4 games added, while Bontempelli plays no finals. It would be disastrous way to analyse things.
Similar threads
