Autopsy Cats lose to Port by 6 points after being down by 10 goals

[Kobe Gryant]

Not really. We were never slaughtered like that in the midfield in 2022 during any game.

Bit of revisionist history there. It was absolutely this bad until the winning streak.

Danger was accumulating 17 touches a game with the calf (and then eventually missed 2 months) and I remember writing that if Joel Selwood at 34 is our leading mid, we're in real strife.

Much like what appears to be happening this year, we had to move Atkins & Blitz into the full time midfield rotation to change that.

There's a move like that coming, we'd be negligent if not...but the question is who is it?

 

[feelinfeline]

No he wasn’t dominated at all against Gawn.

We played Carlton two weeks ago. And, yes, he was dominated by Pittonet.

 

[fpm84]

There's a move like that coming, we'd be negligent if not...but the question is who is it?

 

[Kobe Gryant]

We don't want to fall into the trap of Hawthorn or even North Melbourne over the last decade, though.

"We must always be competitive" so they topped up with older guys, didn't bring the kids on as well as they should, tried for One Last Flag, papered over the cracks for years and years......And then the rebuild was so much more brutal when it finally came.

I'd rather drop back just a little for a couple of years while pumping games into the kids, instead of going down the Hawthorn route.

Hawthorn literally took two first round picks in a 12 year period. That's why they ended up where they did.

We've taken 6 in the last 5 years, while still plucking some gems late in the draft.

It's a completely different situation. Their problem was their entire list was 27+, it's closer to what Collingwood are doing right now, and they never addressed it while actually doubling down with the JOM & TOM trades.

Our problem is the majority of our sides best players right now are under 23, or over 30, with Stengle & Miers providing an outlier as stars in the middle.

We're much closer to peaking in 2-4 years than we are needing to rebuild.

 

[The_Koulouriotis_Fan]

I think you are a bit delusional here.

We don't play high possession midfield as we don't have any midfielders capable of racking up possessions. This is the simplest explanation. When Danger was in his prime he would get possessions. Tim Kelly got possessions. Cam Guthrie was getting possessions while fit.

The reason why our midfield can't get possessions as we have no ball winners in the midfield outside of literal teenagers or 250+ gamers. Tom Atkins and Parfitt are our our only midfielders in their prime and they are 15-20 possession players. Our list just doesn't make sense.

No, I actually watch the game and the trends and also listen to what the coaches say.

We rotate a squad through the midfield with less game time each. In the past we had an incredible midfield that spent large amounts of time on the ground and racked up large numbers, Parfitt and Atkins have had high possession games in the past.

That’s not the way we play now and it’s not the way we played in our premiership year. It’s probably necessity because as you say we don’t have players at the A Grade level and when that changes the game plan will change. At the moment we are not reliant on two or three midfielders like we were from 2016-2021. Danger doesn’t get huge numbers anymore either.

Last night the midfield, got dominated for a period but then evened out, if we were just destroyed all day, we would’ve lost by 10 goals, but we didn’t. We lost by 6points and could’ve won. The coaches are playing the hand they have and the players are playing a role.

 

[The_Koulouriotis_Fan]

Hawthorn literally took two first round picks in a 12 year period. That's why they ended up where they did.

We've taken 6 in the last 5 years, while still plucking some gems late in the draft.

It's a completely different situation. Their problem was their entire list was 27+, it's closer to what Collingwood are doing right now, and they never addressed it while actually doubling down with the JOM & TOM trades.

Our problem is the majority of our sides best players right now are under 23, or over 30, with Stengle & Miers providing an outlier as stars in the middle.

We're much closer to peaking in 2-4 years than we are needing to rebuild.

Spot on, our future looks really exciting and the young guys coming through are starting to take the reins. When the game is there to be won, it’s the younger guys taking charge. I feel happier with Stengle, close, Miers, Bruhn, Henry, Dempsey, Holmes, Zuthrie etc with ball in hand than I do the older guys, which to be honest is great, because they’ve carried this team for a decade, they just have to hang on a little while longer and we’ll be flying!

 

[ToreadorMarch]

Resting Bowes and playing Stanley cost us the 4 pts.

Stanley is done. Duncan is effectively the same and Hawkins is too. You can tell when a player is cooked - they fail to bend down to pick up ground ball, are no longer clean, their disposal deteriorates, and they generally fail to impact the game. Their opponent takes advantage of their physical deterioration. This is happening to all 3.
Unfortunately I think hard decisions need to be made.

We have a number that could come in to play Duncan’s role and now surely it’s time for Neale to be anointed as Hawkins once was when Mooney was done.

I take it you are suggesting Kent Kingsley was done from his first game. Had an inability to bend for his entire career

 

[Footy Smarts]

Furphy is ok purely because hes a cat b not taking up a spot.
But he doesnt feature in 2024 plans.

Edwards i need 12 months to see him before i can give you an answer.

Yes stanley should have been punted and we should have brought in a ruck off another club. I dont think grundy was gettable (but i would have tried harder) but i can think of a number of other rucks that were that we should have gone for. Soldo is a classic example of this but not the only one.

Soldo was contracted and it took Freo's future 2nd rounder plus other pick swaps to get him. He's an upgrade on the cooked version of Stanley but not a huge one and has an awful injury history. He's injured again.

We probably would've had to give all our Esava compensation plus some more and a 3 year deal for a guy we hope to be a 1 year stop gap until Conway comes good and then depth from there. It's a heck of a lot to pay for that.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Hawthorn literally took two first round picks in a 12 year period. That's why they ended up where they did.

We've taken 6 in the last 5 years, while still plucking some gems late in the draft.

It's a completely different situation. Their problem was their entire list was 27+, it's closer to what Collingwood are doing right now, and they never addressed it while actually doubling down with the JOM & TOM trades.

Our problem is the majority of our sides best players right now are under 23, or over 30, with Stengle & Miers providing an outlier as stars in the middle.

We're much closer to peaking in 2-4 years than we are needing to rebuild.

I think that with the exceptions of Cameron and Stewart, all our best players are 26 and under

 

[Max Rooke]

We did go after Goldy, and we probably went after Grundy and Soldo too. You can go after whoever you want, doesn’t mean you’ll get them.

One of the most inexplicable decisions in the last decade is Goldy staying at NM when Geelong came hard at the end of 2019.
Geelong had just finished top of the ladder, lost a prelim, and had Selwood, Danger, Ablett and Hawkins on the list.
Offered Goldy 4 years, which would have been the 2020 and 2022 seasons. Could have had 1-2 premiership medals.
Instead, he took 3 years from NM for more money to remain a “one club player”.
NM proceeded to finish 17th, 18th, 18th, 17th before he left for Essendon in free agency and won’t finish as a one club player.
Absolutely insane sacrifice to avoid the 2hr drive down the highway.

 

[Wish Wellingtons]

No, I actually watch the game and the trends and also listen to what the coaches say.

We rotate a squad through the midfield with less game time each. In the past we had an incredible midfield that spent large amounts of time on the ground and racked up large numbers, Parfitt and Atkins have had high possession games in the past.

That’s not the way we play now and it’s not the way we played in our premiership year. It’s probably necessity because as you say we don’t have players at the A Grade level and when that changes the game plan will change. At the moment we are not reliant on two or three midfielders like we were from 2016-2021. Danger doesn’t get huge numbers anymore either.

Last night the midfield, got dominated for a period but then evened out, if we were just destroyed all day, we would’ve lost by 10 goals, but we didn’t. We lost by 6points and could’ve won. The coaches are playing the hand they have and the players are playing a role.

That's what I have been telling myself too. Just not sure if I believe after watching our midfield get minced three weeks in a row.

 

[Jumping Jack]

On radio Bruhn confirmed the same issue last year kept him out for multiple weeks. He’s unlikely to play next week.

They’re playing games.

He was telling family / friends he was cleared to play and he looked fine on Cameron’s Youtube post early in the week with Dempsey. Even said he was playing golf that afternoon.

I’m not buying it.

They rested him - he wasn’t out “injured”


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Footy Smarts]

They’re playing games.

He was telling family / friends he was cleared to play and he looked fine on Cameron’s Youtube post early in the week with Dempsey. Even said he was playing golf that afternoon.

I’m not buying it.

They rested him - he wasn’t out “injured”


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

That video was recorded before the Melbourne game.

 

[Kobe Gryant]

I think that with the exceptions of Cameron and Stewart, all our best players are 26 and under

Agree with this.

It's why the Hawkins, Duncan, Touhy, & Stanley conundrum is reaching a point of being academic.

If Conway isn't fit enough, and Knevitt, Humphries, & Neale aren't ready...does it really matter?

Their performance is so poor right now that the kids couldn't offer much worse, and they at least will improve with time and experience.

We're not being dickheads here...that would be asking for Foster, Furphy, & Stevens to play just because they're 'young'.

What we're asking for is if the performance return is going to be line-ball, you pick the younger guy, particularly when they're showing form in the seconds.

That's been a tenant of sport for as long as I can remember. It's not a new idea.

 

[Hinkley29]

I still don't know why we didn't just bring a mature age ruck onto the list with a very late pick or rookie selection.

It would be almost impossible to ruck worse than Stanley and they'd be on minimum wage.

We have tried that before and everyone lost their minds when Orren Stephensen was playing ruck in meaningful games.

Most mature age rucks are out of the afl system for a reason. If you are suggesting that we should have recruited a decent ruck, then be prepared to pay. And then don’t complain about all the holes on the list that creates.

Edit: forgot about ceglar also. Bargain basement ruckmen are utterly forgettable.

 

[The_Koulouriotis_Fan]

I'm talking about right now, not the past or future.

Hence the Squad mentality, coaches are using what they have. There were no gun mids available at the trade table.
We've lost two games by 8 and 6 points to teams that have absolute elite midfields and managed to be fairly even in the clearance stats, which is a big improvement on last year. We won a flag in 2022 and are currently sitting in the top 4 now.
Not sure what else the match committee can do, or what you expect?

 

[Hello Kitty]

And I think the other point for the club is that we need to see whether Neale is the replacement. if he isn’t we need to focus our trade efforts. Can’t tell without giving him a string of games in the AFL - this year.

But to do that we can’t drop O Henry nor it seems Rohan I dont think. So the only spot we have for Neale is Hawkins.

But I don’t see them dropping Hawkins permanently nor for an extended period. I don’t know how they manage this

During Hawkins’ interview (355 equal with Selwood), he said he viewed his poor form as a speed bump
Added, he was told he’d be rested/managed this year + accepted it.

Considering we have a strong forward line, when Hawkins is rested, could Neale play forward + perhaps as backup ruck? He could easily play Hawkins’ rucking role in our forward line, too.

Conway, R3 Hawthorn, was discussed in glowing terms by King + Chief (can’t believe I’m including them), who pondered if Toby should be played as second ruck.
“He looks good, doesn’t he? He took a big grab. Kicked a goal. He is doing all sorts of things,” Dunstall said.
Scott stated:
“We're thinking about it," Scott said of naming both Conway and Stanley.
"We're not in a position in our preparation this week to roll out our plans just yet, but it's a live option for us.”
“The priority for Toby is making sure we don't cut any corners in making sure he's a really consistent decade-long player for us."

 

[BORIS332]

During Hawkins’ interview (355 equal with Selwood), he said he viewed his poor form as a speed bump
Added, he was told he’d be rested/managed this year + accepted it.

Considering we have a strong forward line, when Hawkins is rested, could Neale play forward + perhaps as backup ruck? He could easily play Hawkins’ rucking role in our forward line, too.

Conway, R3 Hawthorn, was discussed in glowing terms by King + Chief (can’t believe I’m including them), who pondered if Toby should be played as second ruck.
“He looks good, doesn’t he? He took a big grab. Kicked a goal. He is doing all sorts of things,” Dunstall said.
Scott stated:
“We're thinking about it," Scott said of naming both Conway and Stanley.
"We're not in a position in our preparation this week to roll out our plans just yet, but it's a live option for us.”
“The priority for Toby is making sure we don't cut any corners in making sure he's a really consistent decade-long player for us."

I don’t think Hawkins needs to be replaced with a tall. We have enough marking power with Cameron, Rohan and OHenry. Neale has been good in the VFL but I’d personally bring in Mannagh for the scoreboard impact and ability to have midfield stints.

 

[Hello Kitty]

Because we have Hawkins, Rohan and O Henry as forward marking targets they would prefer Cameron in a more mobile role.

In this week’s interview, Cameron said Scott told him to play wherever he likes

 

[Hinkley29]

Darcy Fort would be looking pretty good right now. Just saying.

Darcy Fort is less competitive than Stanley.

His saving grace is that he can play forward and help out in the ruck. But as lead ruck he would just be shuffling deck chairs on the titanic.

 

[Hello Kitty]

I don’t think Hawkins needs to be replaced with a tall. We have enough marking power with Cameron, Rohan and OHenry. Neale has been good in the VFL but I’d personally bring in Mannagh for the scoreboard impact and ability to have midfield stints.

I was more addressing our ruck issue. Suggesting rotation of Conway or Neale to get games into them. Cameron is playing around the ground, with Scotty’s blessing.

Hawkins is a tall + rucks in our forward line. Neale is only resting forward, sharing ruck with Blitz.

Someone could explain Conway. . .running with Blitz or Neale.

I’m simply saying there are options, which need to be addressed to stabilise our MF.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Agree with this.

It's why the Hawkins, Duncan, Touhy, & Stanley conundrum is reaching a point of being academic.

If Conway isn't fit enough, and Knevitt, Humphries, & Neale aren't ready...does it really matter?

Their performance is so poor right now that the kids couldn't offer much worse, and they at least will improve with time and experience.

We're not being dickheads here...that would be asking for Foster, Furphy, & Stevens to play just because they're 'young'.

What we're asking for is if the performance return is going to be line-ball, you pick the younger guy, particularly when they're showing form in the seconds.

That's been a tenant of sport for as long as I can remember. It's not a new idea.

Credit where it's due most of our aging stars have some form of understudy too.

Neale really needs games

 

[Jimmy Yamazaki]

Hence the Squad mentality, coaches are using what they have. There were no gun mids available at the trade table.
We've lost two games by 8 and 6 points to teams that have absolute elite midfields and managed to be fairly even in the clearance stats, which is a big improvement on last year. We won a flag in 2022 and are currently sitting in the top 4 now.
Not sure what else the match committee can do, or what you expect?

I'm not expecting anything and I don't know what gave you the impression that I am.

My comment was that I don't think we have the midfield talent to win the flag as we currently sit and I think other teams have better talent there than us. And that's not me saying Bruhn/Clark/Holmes are no good, it's that they aren't ready yet and have not reached their peak.

Now of course I could be wrong, but we won't know until about 4 months if we make finals (which we should) I just don't think it'll be good enough when the heat is on in September. (Rucks in that catergory too)

 

[D BRIDGE]

Neale really needs games

It's at the stage where If we were still wanting to play Hawkins (assume we will) that we play Neale as the #1 ruck before Stanley.

Yeah I know Neale isn't a good ruck... but you can't offer less than Stanley does atm and getting games into Neale, even as a ruck would be better than him playing VFL.

 

[Kobe Gryant]

Credit where it's due most of our aging stars have some form of understudy too.

Neale really needs games

I actually reckon Neale will perform if we pick him as an athletic key forward suits our structure and gameplan to a tee.

But even if he did offer the same return as Hawkins has goal wise, which I doubt....he offers so much more once the ball is in dispute.

Hawk has never been a pressure player, and he's always offered a token chase at most.

That's fine if you're kicking goals, and even if you're offering something around the ground in terms of pressure and contested marking like a Rohan or Jez for instance.

If you're not troubling the scorers, and need the ball virtually speared onto your chest to have any impact...then what are we doing here?

We owe it to our side after the start they've had to bite the bullet on a few senior players who aren't carrying their weight, both for this year, and the future.