Time to fold the VFL?

[AussieNick1999]

I think the AFL agenda is to re-instate the AFL reserves competition in the next couple of years and do away with a state league tier completely in Victoria (and in time have the WAFL and SANFL operate under similar lines as well).

The AFL strongly advocates the American college system and are trying to implement it slowly by stealth. They don't want people over the age of 21 playing grassroots footy, they want them to be at an AFL game - paying for memberships, ground admission fees, merchandise and food and drink that they all get a share of. Senior grassroots football is an expenditure that they would rather not have. Every dollar spent at a grassroots match is revenue that they would rather you to spend on them.

Of course, they will always want the kids to be playing Auskick and junior footy, with the best players going on the Under 18 system and then onto AFL lists. When the rest of the players don't reach these levels, they want you to go and attend AFL matches instead.

Why would they want to fund a state league in Victoria when their intended model is:
Junior footy -> Under 18 leagues -> AFL reserves -> AFL

Funding a revived VFA would not be their preference as they would not consider that part of their model.

It's a model I honestly despise. What I love about footy compared to American football and other sports is how accessible it is for people who aren't interested or capable of playing at the elite level. Community footy is an important part of the game. Personally I find myself more drawn in and excited for the suburban game than I do the AFL. I love that this is a sport where if you don't make it at the highest level, it doesn't have to mean the end of your footy journey.

The scenario you describe above sounds like a nightmare. I don't want a system where players are faced with the burden of becoming elite athletes from the moment they play junior footy. I want the game to be accessible to as many people as possible, whether they play professionally or not.

 

[eth-dog]

I think the AFL agenda is to re-instate the AFL reserves competition in the next couple of years and do away with a state league tier completely in Victoria (and in time have the WAFL and SANFL operate as colts competitions as well).

The AFL strongly advocates the American college system and are trying to implement it slowly by stealth. They don't want people over the age of 21 playing grassroots footy, they want them to be at an AFL game - paying for memberships, ground admission fees, merchandise and food and drink that they all get a share of. Senior grassroots football is an expenditure that they would rather not have. Every dollar spent at a grassroots match is revenue that they would rather you to spend on them.

Of course, they will always want the kids to be playing Auskick and junior footy, with the best players going on the Under 18 system and then onto AFL lists. When the rest of the players don't reach these levels, they want you to go and attend AFL matches instead.

Why would they want to fund a state league in Victoria when their intended model is:
Junior footy -> Under 18 leagues (which will probably become U21 when the AFL reserves returns) -> AFL reserves -> AFL

Funding a revived VFA would not be their preference as they would not consider that part of their model.

Most of the AFL higher ups are VAFA A Grade royalty (Xavs, SKOB, Scotch etc). They want the top grassroots around at a minimum.

 

[SeaSide]

I think the AFL agenda is to re-instate the AFL reserves competition in the next couple of years and do away with a state league tier completely in Victoria (and in time have the WAFL and SANFL operate as colts competitions as well).

The AFL strongly advocates the American college system and are trying to implement it slowly by stealth. They don't want people over the age of 21 playing grassroots footy, they want them to be at an AFL game - paying for memberships, ground admission fees, merchandise and food and drink that they all get a share of. Senior grassroots football is an expenditure that they would rather not have. Every dollar spent at a grassroots match is revenue that they would rather you to spend on them.

Of course, they will always want the kids to be playing Auskick and junior footy, with the best players going on the Under 18 system and then onto AFL lists. When the rest of the players don't reach these levels, they want you to go and attend AFL matches instead.

Why would they want to fund a state league in Victoria when their intended model is:
Junior footy -> Under 18 leagues (which will probably become U21 when the AFL reserves returns) -> AFL reserves -> AFL

Funding a revived VFA would not be their preference as they would not consider that part of their model.

Let's do it anyway!

 

[random observer]

I don't often look in on this thread, so I am a bit behind the times with this...

I think the AFL agenda is to re-instate the AFL reserves competition in the next couple of years and do away with a state league tier completely in Victoria (and in time have the WAFL and SANFL operate as colts competitions as well).

The AFL strongly advocates the American college system and are trying to implement it slowly by stealth. They don't want people over the age of 21 playing grassroots footy, they want them to be at an AFL game - paying for memberships, ground admission fees, merchandise and food and drink that they all get a share of. Senior grassroots football is an expenditure that they would rather not have. Every dollar spent at a grassroots match is revenue that they would rather you to spend on them.

Of course, they will always want the kids to be playing Auskick and junior footy, with the best players going on the Under 18 system and then onto AFL lists. When the rest of the players don't reach these levels, they want you to go and attend AFL matches instead.

Why would they want to fund a state league in Victoria when their intended model is:
Junior footy -> Under 18 leagues (which will probably become U21 when the AFL reserves returns) -> AFL reserves -> AFL

Funding a revived VFA would not be their preference as they would not consider that part of their model.

Excellent analysis - the only part I would disagree with is the time frame. This is not something the AFL is going to do. They have largely done it already. The vast majority of Victorian AFL players come through the U19 comp; yes, some come from VFL or other leagues, but they are rare enough to be notable. Bringing back AFL reserves will be the final stage.

As for the proposals for a revived VFA / Victorian State FL, I think they are unrealistic.

First off, I'm not having a crack at SeaSide. I would love to see a top level Victorian league and like to see a well thought out proposal. But the practicalities are against it.

In this proposal, standalone clubs can compete in their own league, including a promotion and relegation system for Victorian district and country clubs. The top two finishers of each league (if they choose) can participate in a playoff after the home and away season, which could last for about five or six weeks, starting after the VFLW is over.

They won't choose.

If I was a club administrator, I would see absolutely no attraction to joining a new VFA / VSFL. For people running clubs, the most important things are success and money, with prestige a distant third (success is what you play for, money is survival; prestige is nice, but it is only useful in securing higher success and/or more money). When it comes to success and money, joining the VSFA offers zero or negative benefits. In terms of success, it will be harder to win a flag against quality opposition; many clubs (and players, and supporters) would prefer more assured success in a local comp, rather than struggling against the top sides of the state (several VFL and VFA sides did this). As for money, the crowds are unlikely to be much bigger (and may be somewhat smaller, if long-distance travel is involved), while the wages bill for players will probably go up (players will demand a 'premier' pay packet for playing in a premier comp; also need bigger money to gain / retain recruits). And the 'prestige' of being in the VSFL would not compensate for these (see below).

Also, a five or six week play off round after the end of a long season will not be popular with players (to say the least).

The winner and runner-up, or more can then be promoted to the prestigious Victorian State Football Association/Alliance (VSFA).

Getting back to MortlockWatcher's post above, the disconnection of AFL from lower comps has destroyed any prestige a VSFA might have.

Living in suburban Melbourne, I can tell you that there are many AFL fans whose knowledge of suburban football is minimal or non-existent. Worse, some of them have a negative impression of local footy. Now that AFL players come overwhelmingly from U19 comps and rarely from suburban leagues, many people perceive the suburban leagues / amateurs as being dead ends for blokes who weren't good enough to make the big time (this is not my belief, but it is out there). Forty years ago, a VSFL could have been marketed as 'state level footy' with some discussion as to how it stacked up against AFL reserves. Now a VSFL would probably be regarded as the 'least worst rejects' in Victoria. The prestige has been lost.

This league could be structured like the English Premier League (EPL) where every club in the country has a chance to reach the top level.

Wouldn't that require the whole state to be arranged into a tiered comp, a 'pyramid of leagues'? The travel problems would be horrific.

Promoted clubs will keep their reserves in their local competition and return there if relegated.

This last bit woud be a nightmare. Having a lopsided division (the twos remain, the seniors are in VSFL) would be a pain for any league, and would be a logistical problem for the clubs (your reserves are playing in Bairnsdale, your seniors in Melbourne - or Portland). And if an ex-VFA side finishes last, where do you relegate them to? Can't see SFNL welcoming Sandringham, or WFNL being thrilled to have Werribee or Williamstown come in and devastate their top division.

As I've said, I'd love there to be an equivalent to the VFA of the 1980s, but the day for it has passed.

As for the VFL, my own take is that the AFL will go on making assurances that they are fully committed to it as it is - until one day they announce a wonderful new idea, AFL Reserves (as though there has never been such a thing before). They will make the big annoucement with a single sentence on the end thanking the ex-VFA sides for their services and wishing them well. The ex-VFA sides will either collapse (most likely) or try to find a suburban comp to play in. And that will be that.

 

[AussieNick1999]

I don't often look in on this thread, so I am a bit behind the times with this...

Excellent analysis - the only part I would disagree with is the time frame. This is not something the AFL is going to do. They have largely done it already. The vast majority of Victorian AFL players come through the U19 comp; yes, some come from VFL or other leagues, but they are rare enough to be notable. Bringing back AFL reserves will be the final stage.

As for the proposals for a revived VFA / Victorian State FL, I think they are unrealistic.

First off, I'm not having a crack at SeaSide. I would love to see a top level Victorian league and like to see a well thought out proposal. But the practicalities are against it.

They won't choose.

If I was a club administrator, I would see absolutely no attraction to joining a new VFA / VSFL. For people running clubs, the most important things are success and money, with prestige a distant third (success is what you play for, money is survival; prestige is nice, but it is only useful in securing higher success and/or more money). When it comes to success and money, joining the VSFA offers zero or negative benefits. In terms of success, it will be harder to win a flag against quality opposition; many clubs (and players, and supporters) would prefer more assured success in a local comp, rather than struggling against the top sides of the state (several VFL and VFA sides did this). As for money, the crowds are unlikely to be much bigger (and may be somewhat smaller, if long-distance travel is involved), while the wages bill for players will probably go up (players will demand a 'premier' pay packet for playing in a premier comp; also need bigger money to gain / retain recruits). And the 'prestige' of being in the VSFL would not compensate for these (see below).

Also, a five or six week play off round after the end of a long season will not be popular with players (to say the least).


Getting back to MortlockWatcher's post above, the disconnection of AFL from lower comps has destroyed any prestige a VSFA might have.

Living in suburban Melbourne, I can tell you that there are many AFL fans whose knowledge of suburban football is minimal or non-existent. Worse, some of them have a negative impression of local footy. Now that AFL players come overwhelmingly from U19 comps and rarely from suburban leagues, many people perceive the suburban leagues / amateurs as being dead ends for blokes who weren't good enough to make the big time (this is not my belief, but it is out there). Forty years ago, a VSFL could have been marketed as 'state level footy' with some discussion as to how it stacked up against AFL reserves. Now a VSFL would probably be regarded as the 'least worst rejects' in Victoria. The prestige has been lost.


Wouldn't that require the whole state to be arranged into a tiered comp, a 'pyramid of leagues'? The travel problems would be horrific.

This last bit woud be a nightmare. Having a lopsided division (the twos remain, the seniors are in VSFL) would be a pain for any league, and would be a logistical problem for the clubs (your reserves are playing in Bairnsdale, your seniors in Melbourne - or Portland). And if an ex-VFA side finishes last, where do you relegate them to? Can't see SFNL welcoming Sandringham, or WFNL being thrilled to have Werribee or Williamstown come in and devastate their top division.

As I've said, I'd love there to be an equivalent to the VFA of the 1980s, but the day for it has passed.

As for the VFL, my own take is that the AFL will go on making assurances that they are fully committed to it as it is - until one day they announce a wonderful new idea, AFL Reserves (as though there has never been such a thing before). They will make the big annoucement with a single sentence on the end thanking the ex-VFA sides for their services and wishing them well. The ex-VFA sides will either collapse (most likely) or try to find a suburban comp to play in. And that will be that.

A promotion/relegation system would be a logistical nightmare, and also wouldn't make for a great product when you have so many clubs that vary wildly in terms of resources, facilities, culture, and player quality. You'll see thumpings and blowout results between sides that are completely different in terms of quality, which does nothing to attract supporters. Local leagues will also not be keen on acting as reserves comps for clubs that get promoted - that is a major complaint a lot of VFL fans have about how our league is structured, it wouldn't be fair to ask that of local leagues.

If there is eventually going to be no state-level competition in Victoria, then for my club that most likely spells doom. Frankston sit in a region with a strong local competition and before we were hosting night games, most locals preferred to follow an MPFNL club instead of seeing a Dolphins game. Even if we were somehow accepted by either the MPFNL or the SNFL, both leagues already have Frankston clubs (both being breakaway clubs from us) and I think our membership numbers would stagnate to the point where the club would become unviable. I hope I'm wrong, and I would absolutely follow this club to a local competition or to the VAFA if we could make the jump.

Unfourtunely your prediction paints a very bleak picture for football in this country. If you saw my earlier comment you'll see my reasons for loving lower-tier footy so much; mainly the stronger connection between club, coaches, players, volunteers, and supporters. But also that it provides a place for people who either don't make it at the top level or simply don't aspire to it. I think our game is beautiful because it's accessible to nearly anyone, regardless of whether it's a job or simply a passion. I hope I never see a world where we lose that.

 

[SeaSide]

A promotion/relegation system would be a logistical nightmare, and also wouldn't make for a great product when you have so many clubs that vary wildly in terms of resources, facilities, culture, and player quality. You'll see thumpings and blowout results between sides that are completely different in terms of quality, which does nothing to attract supporters. Local leagues will also not be keen on acting as reserves comps for clubs that get promoted - that is a major complaint a lot of VFL fans have about how our league is structured, it wouldn't be fair to ask that of local leagues.

If there is eventually going to be no state-level competition in Victoria, then for my club that most likely spells doom. Frankston sit in a region with a strong local competition and before we were hosting night games, most locals preferred to follow an MPFNL club instead of seeing a Dolphins game. Even if we were somehow accepted by either the MPFNL or the SNFL, both leagues already have Frankston clubs (both being breakaway clubs from us) and I think our membership numbers would stagnate to the point where the club would become unviable. I hope I'm wrong, and I would absolutely follow this club to a local competition or to the VAFA if we could make the jump.

Unfourtunely your prediction paints a very bleak picture for football in this country. If you saw my earlier comment you'll see my reasons for loving lower-tier footy so much; mainly the stronger connection between club, coaches, players, volunteers, and supporters. But also that it provides a place for people who either don't make it at the top level or simply don't aspire to it. I think our game is beautiful because it's accessible to nearly anyone, regardless of whether it's a job or simply a passion. I hope I never see a world where we lose that.

MortlockWatcher

AuzzieNick

Eth-dog

Random Observer

Thank you, boys (I hope I got that right).

I remain happy with my suggestion, feel that we will eventually need our own State Football League and I do understand objections.

Firstly, not all teams will aspire to play in a Premier VSFAlliance/League. That’s fine; coming from Mildura, Portland, or Orbost is a ridiculous scenario.

Reading between the lines, I did suggest that metropolitan and country clubs wouldn’t be required to play off for vacant positions in the VSFA/L. It’s a choice. Some will aspire, and others, as suggested, will be happy to continue playing in their own pond. That’s accepted and understandable.

RO, I haven’t enough ink in my biro to refute many of your excuses and poor rationale. It was well written, however there are lots of holes. Football supporters in my home suburb would prefer to follow ‘their’ team in a second-tier state-wide competition than have it subsumed into a local competition. Was your reply written for you by AFL scribes?

Many locals also follow local clubs.

The VSFA/L will come to fruition and it will be successful.

 

[AussieNick1999]

MortlockWatcher

AuzzieNick

Eth-dog

Random Observer

Thank you, boys (I hope I got that right).

I remain happy with my suggestion, feel that we will eventually need our own State Football League and I do understand objections.

Firstly, not all teams will aspire to play in a Premier VSFAlliance/League. That’s fine; coming from Mildura, Portland, or Orbost is a ridiculous scenario.

Reading between the lines, I did suggest that metropolitan and country clubs wouldn’t be required to play off for vacant positions in the VSFA/L. It’s a choice. Some will aspire, and others, as suggested, will be happy to continue playing in their own pond. That’s accepted and understandable.

RO, I haven’t enough ink in my biro to refute many of your excuses and poor rationale. It was well written, however there are lots of holes. Football supporters in my home suburb would prefer to follow ‘their’ team in a second-tier state-wide competition than have it subsumed into a local competition. Was your reply written for you by AFL scribes?

Many locals also follow local clubs.

The VSFA/L will come to fruition and it will be successful.

It's not really an objection from me. I think my club's place is absolutely at state level and would love to see us have a genuine state league again. It's more just fear. There's a lot we would need to do to make the competition viable; finding the extra clubs to fill out the competition (we'd need anywhere from 4 to 7 clubs depending on how many existing ex-VFA clubs survive), the money required to bankroll and market the new league, and getting fans back on board after decades of low attendance and a lack of media coverage.

I think that last point is the key. Getting footy fans interested in state football again. If clubs are pulling in strong membership numbers and getting strong attendances, that helps with sponsorship and media coverage.

 

[MortlockWatcher]

You hit the nail on the head.

I would suggest that some of the prime candidates to join may be happier in their smaller pond with a good chance of success year on year, while a couple of clubs might have greater ambitions and want to play in such a league.

The key factor is money. Where will it come from? Not the AFL - why would they bankroll a competition that would compete with the AFL reserves in terms of players, sponsorships and supporters. As we saw with the VFA, the AFL are not going to help or fund a rival competition. The AFL would want you to watch their 2s, which would more than likely be curtain raisers to AFL matches, instead of spending your money outside of their bubble.

The media coverage for a new state league would be minimal. There would be no coverage in the dailies as any coverage would go to the AFL and the reserves - you may be lucky to get the scores in the Monday Herald-Sun. The local rags would be the only ones to cover it but it would be far from comprehensive, maybe just a short report - a far cry from the footy coverage we saw in the Leader newspapers in the 1970s and 1980s for the VFA and local leagues.

Without the money, media coverage and financial support from the AFL, this new league could well end up with the status of being just another suburban comp rather quickly unless it could find a sugar daddy (or daddies) to pump significant amounts of money to make it sustainable. I feel it would never reach the standing of the VFA in this current football landscape. Even the SANFL and WAFL crowds struggle to go too much higher than around 2000 for most games now.

 

[SeaSide]

You hit the nail on the head.

I would suggest that some of the prime candidates to join may be happier in their smaller pond with a good chance of success year on year, while a couple of clubs might have greater ambitions and want to play in such a league.

The key factor is money. Where will it come from? Not the AFL - why would they bankroll a competition that would compete with the AFL reserves in terms of players, sponsorships and supporters. As we saw with the VFA, the AFL are not going to help or fund a rival competition. The AFL would want you to watch their 2s, which would more than likely be curtain raisers to AFL matches, instead of spending your money outside of their bubble.

The media coverage for a new state league would be minimal. There would be no coverage in the dailies as any coverage would go to the AFL and the reserves - you may be lucky to get the scores in the Monday Herald-Sun. The local rags would be the only ones to cover it but it would be far from comprehensive, maybe just a short report - a far cry from the footy coverage we saw in the Leader newspapers in the 1970s and 1980s for the VFA and local leagues.

Without the money, media coverage and financial support from the AFL, this new league could well end up with the status of being just another suburban comp rather quickly unless it could find a sugar daddy (or daddies) to pump significant amounts of money to make it sustainable. I feel it would never reach the standing of the VFA in this current football landscape. Even the SANFL and WAFL crowds struggle to go too much higher than around 2000 for most games now.

Another good write up MW, as have been all responses regarding a proposed VSFA/L. Some very good arguments each way.

Such a competition could either engineer a great amount of local interest with locals wanting their clubs to aspire to greater heights, with lesser clubs happy to wallow in their local leagues welcome to do so.

My feeling is that it would be successful as the proud and financial District clubs would aspire to greater heights.

I’m sure the former VFA clubs would lead the way.

 

[MortlockWatcher]

I understand what you are saying but the issue is attractiveness to stakeholders for making money. The TV networks and the print and radio media in particular. Who will televise it and provide it with the necessary funds to help cover costs?

7 won't as they will concentrate on the AFL instead. Doing the reserves or a VFA mark II would involve significant costs to them just like the ABC did in the 80s and 90s. In WA, 7 forces the WAFL to pay them $1 million per year and in return they screen a match most weeks (not all) at greatly varying start times (and days).

There is no financial value to TV networks in screening say Coburg versus Vermont as they want hundreds of thousands of viewers to be able to attract sponsorship for their coverage. The other channels would think similar. It was why the VFA's fortunes nosedived in the 1980s and it started with no weekly TV in 1982 and the loss of sponsors and promotion that came with it. Each year more clubs hit the wall as the VFA went from 22 clubs to nine inside a decade.

In terms of media promotion, the best a new league could hope for is to have a decent website with access to quality footage of matches.

 

[random observer]

MortlockWatcher: excellent interpretation of finance and media. Respect (as always).

AussieNick1999: what I have predicted is a bleak vision for football, but mainly for the middle / second tier. The third tier should hold up better.

SeaSide: I think you have misinterpreted (or possibly misrepresented) some of the things I posted.

Football supporters in my home suburb would prefer to follow ‘their’ team in a second-tier state-wide competition than have it subsumed into a local competition.

I did not suggest that your club (or any ex-VFA club) should quit the VFL and go to a local comp. While the VFL persists (even in its current, bastardised form), these clubs are better off remaining in it: they can claim to be the highest-level clubs in their area, which should (might?) attract more supporters, more money and better players. What I actually said was: when the VFL collapses (after the AFL Reserves sides leave), the remaining ex-VFA clubs will have a choice between downshifting to third tier football, or dying altogether - because there will not be a second-tier comp.

The VSFA/L will come to fruition and it will be successful.

Yeah, but how will it come to fruition? If starting it is left until the AFL announces it is pulling the AFL Reserves out of the VFL, the VFL (the nucleus of the new VSFL) will be crippled. Joining a comp too small to be viable (8 teams at most), with teams who have been in and out of recess (Frankston) or that are very unwell (Northern) is about as attractive as boarding the Titanic just after it hit the iceberg. If it was to go ahead, the clubs would have to get out front and start organising very soon - sound out other clubs, form a league, issue invitations, etc. (much in the way the VFA breakaway teams did back in 1897 when they set up the VFL). But there will be no enthusiasm for this: for most ex-VFA clubs, quitting the current VFL (where they are clinging on) for a VSFL (which might not get off the ground) would be going from the frying pan into the fire. (Apart from the weaker ones, I can't see Box Hill wanting to divorce Hawthorn).

My feeling is that it would be successful as the proud and financial District clubs would aspire to greater heights.

There will be a range of opinions of this. Personally, I don't think there would be many (if any) at the moment. If there were some massively dominant teams (think North Ballarat in the mid-90s, Deer Park ten years ago, Balwyn and Noble Park at various times) who got bored with racking up serial flags and belting the bejesus out of their local comps, then maybe they would. But at the moment there are no sides like this. If winning a Division 1 flag is tough, are you really going to step up to a VSFL? If there were some compelling financial rewards (bigger turnover, more supporters, mass media coverage), then maybe - but these seem unlikely to me (as above).

Was your reply written for you by AFL scribes?

I can assure you that I am not an AFL stooge.
(1) I loathe and despise the AFL for the damage it has done to football (of all levels) and the arrogant and dictatorial way in which they have done it. They are the last sporting association I would shill for.
(2) When the AFL shafts fans / clubs / leagues / local football / etc. (and they have shafted them all), they just go ahead and do it, blithely saying it is 'for the good of the game' (in reality: 'for the good of the AFL'). They don't waste time getting mugs on bf as apologists.

 

[random observer]

One aspect that has not been covered (and MortlockWatcher will probably do it better than me) is that of getting more supporters to follow the clubs of any proposed second-tier comp.

The great problem of Melbourne suburban football sides is that they no longer represent anything other than themselves. Back in the glory days of the VFA (1940s-50s), the clubs represented the suburb and its community - in much the way that country football teams did (and still do). Now, people no longer really identify with their suburb. Back in the 1950s, many people lived their adult lives in the suburb where they grew up; now, hardly anyone does - they move out (get priced out) and the connection is lost. And the notion of community has weakened to the point where it barely exists. Back in the day, people knew and spoke to their neighbours, had gone to school with them, socialised with them, sometimes worked alongside them; kids called adult neighbours aunty and uncle, etc. Going to the footy together and meeting up with other neighbours was a natural part of this lifestyle. Now, many people barely know what their neighbours look like, let alone their names. Marshalling 'communities' like this to support a local football team will be a big task.

To get a decent number of supporters to a suburban football club in the VSFL, it will have to stand for more than just that suburb (for reasons above). The great problem is that people in Melbourne don't identify with any greater-than-suburban area. True, people in the western suburbs have an identity: you hear about Westies, problems affecting the western suburbs, etc. (Footscray AFL even thought it was worthwhile to rename themselves the Western Bulldogs to tap into this). But you never hear of Southies, Easties, etc. And how many sides can represent the West against the rest? One or two? And the local council areas are artificial constructs created 30 years ago which no-one cares about - I have never once heard of anyone calling themselves a Kingstonian / Stonningtonian / etc. A side from Cranbourne will not be the pride of Casey, or the Southeast - it will just be a side from Cranbourne. The supporter base will not be any better than that of a side in any of the local comps.

I think that last point is the key. Getting footy fans interested in state football again.

Yeah, but people from Victoria don't really identify with their state - certainly nothing like the obsessive degree to which people from SA or WA do. Being a feeder for a 'Victorian representative team' won't mean much. Playing the SANFL or WAFL doesn't seem to excite anyone, if attendances are to be believed.

Being the best team in the VFL/VSFL won't mean much when the best Victorian sides are in the AFL and country sides won't participate due to distance. At best, they will be the best suburban side in Melbourne - and even that may be questionable in the longer term.

 

[AussieNick1999]

Yeah, but people from Victoria don't really identify with their state - certainly nothing like the obsessive degree to which people from SA or WA do. Being a feeder for a 'Victorian representative team' won't mean much. Playing the SANFL or WAFL doesn't seem to excite anyone, if attendances are to be believed.

Being the best team in the VFL/VSFL won't mean much when the best Victorian sides are in the AFL and country sides won't participate due to distance. At best, they will be the best suburban side in Melbourne - and even that may be questionable in the longer term.

I was more talking about the core product of state league footy rather than state vs state. As you said above it's better for standalone clubs to remain in the VFL - as bastardised as it is - since playing at the highest level of footy in their area is one of the only things we have going for us in terms of attracting interest. Unfourtunately the interest in the VFL has been dropping off since the 90s and we've now had generations of fans in Victoria either following a local club instead or just watching the AFL without any interest in suburban footy. That's thirty or so years now of people either not following lower-tier football or having such strong ties to their local club that they'd have very little reason to support a VFL team.

Unfourtunately this means that there's very little chance of a happy ending for most of these standalone clubs and their fans. If Victoria goes without a state league and the ex-VFA clubs have to find third-tier leagues to survive, Frankston will more than likely be left with no future. Even if either the MPFNL or the SFNL accepted as into their comps, both already have teams representing Frankston. Competing against the various local clubs that most fans in this area already support will see membership and attendance figures dry up, possibly to a point where the club cannot be sustained. Unless we somehow found some alternative revenue source that made football revenue a non-issue, we'd be dead. And that's a core part of my weekend and my social life gone, so I'm not enthusiastic about accepting it as the inevitable.

 

[SeaSide]

I was more talking about the core product of state league footy rather than state vs state. As you said above it's better for standalone clubs to remain in the VFL - as bastardised as it is - since playing at the highest level of footy in their area is one of the only things we have going for us in terms of attracting interest. Unfourtunately the interest in the VFL has been dropping off since the 90s and we've now had generations of fans in Victoria either following a local club instead or just watching the AFL without any interest in suburban footy. That's thirty or so years now of people either not following lower-tier football or having such strong ties to their local club that they'd have very little reason to support a VFL team.

Unfourtunately this means that there's very little chance of a happy ending for most of these standalone clubs and their fans. If Victoria goes without a state league and the ex-VFA clubs have to find third-tier leagues to survive, Frankston will more than likely be left with no future. Even if either the MPFNL or the SFNL accepted as into their comps, both already have teams representing Frankston. Competing against the various local clubs that most fans in this area already support will see membership and attendance figures dry up, possibly to a point where the club cannot be sustained. Unless we somehow found some alternative revenue source that made football revenue a non-issue, we'd be dead. And that's a core part of my weekend and my social life gone, so I'm not enthusiastic about accepting it as the inevitable.

​

 

[SeaSide]

​

Thank you AussieNick1999, MortlockWatcher, Random Observer, Eth-dog for your contribution to the VSFA/L proposition. It’s been good reading and well thought out.​

Your thoughts are certainly not arguments against the formation of a VSFA/L, but honest and valid reasons why it ‘most probably’ wouldn’t be viable.

Everything put forward is realism.

Funding, TV coverage, the list is frightening.

My concern is that ‘if’ the AFL pulls the plug on the former VFA clubs, they will either be subsumed into local leagues or just evaporate.

So many of these clubs have such a rich history, viz Port, Willy, Coburg et al, and it would be devastating to have them crumble. Despite many of your very valid reasons as to why a VSFA/L competition, with an invitation for all clubs to aspire, wouldn’t be viable escapes me.

I’m certainly not suggesting starting such a competition before the AFL kicks our standalone clubs out. Hopefully, it won’t happen.

“Be Prepared”
Bayden Powell.

 

[MortlockWatcher]

We will get an indication soon enough of a potential timeframe.

The West Coast Eagles will announce inside the next six weeks its future intentions re: WAFL or VFL for its reserves team in 2025 and beyond. If the Eagles say VFL then expect Port Adelaide to follow suit straight after that, which will in turn see the Crows and Dockers more or less told to join them in an AFL reserves comp.

At a hunch, it all boils down to what the Eagles announce. It has to be all four or none at all. Tasmania is separate from all of this.

 

[eth-dog]

We will get an indication soon enough of a potential timeframe.

The West Coast Eagles will announce inside the next six weeks its future intentions re: WAFL or VFL for its reserves team in 2025 and beyond. If the Eagles say VFL then expect Port Adelaide to follow suit straight after that, which will in turn see the Crows and Dockers more or less told to join them in an AFL reserves comp.

At a hunch, it all boils down to what the Eagles announce. It has to be all four or none at all. Tasmania is separate from all of this.

If West Coast and Port decide to join it's time to let all 8 non Vic sides plus Tassie and Southport have their "AFL reserves" comp and let the VFL go back to normal.

 

[AussieNick1999]

If West Coast and Port decide to join it's time to let all 8 non Vic sides plus Tassie and Southport have their "AFL reserves" comp and let the VFL go back to normal.

If the interstate clubs want it so badly they can organise it themselves, and invite a couple of the Victorian clubs to join them to pad out the competition. Reducing the VFL to a smaller enough size for everyone to play each other is a good thing in my opinion, and opens up the space for new standalone clubs to join on the pff chance they'd ever desire to.

 

[AussieNick1999]

Thank you AussieNick1999, MortlockWatcher, Random Observer, Eth-dog for your contribution to the VSFA/L proposition. It’s been good reading and well thought out.​

Your thoughts are certainly not arguments against the formation of a VSFA/L, but honest and valid reasons why it ‘most probably’ wouldn’t be viable.

Everything put forward is realism.

Funding, TV coverage, the list is frightening.

My concern is that ‘if’ the AFL pulls the plug on the former VFA clubs, they will either be subsumed into local leagues or just evaporate.

So many of these clubs have such a rich history, viz Port, Willy, Coburg et al, and it would be devastating to have them crumble. Despite many of your very valid reasons as to why a VSFA/L competition, with an invitation for all clubs to aspire, wouldn’t be viable escapes me.

I’m certainly not suggesting starting such a competition before the AFL kicks our standalone clubs out. Hopefully, it won’t happen.

“Be Prepared”
Bayden Powell.

I think it's worth it to have a contingency plan in place in the event that the AFL decides to pull the plug. While I have a deep fear that my club would face a death sentence if the VFL was dismantled, I'd like us to at least give ourselves the best chance of survival. I don't know what the situation would be like for the other standalones and what their relationships are with the respective local leagues in their area. But I imagine that if dropping to a local league was desirable and possible for these clubs, they would have done it.

 

[eth-dog]

If the interstate clubs want it so badly they can organise it themselves, and invite a couple of the Victorian clubs to join them to pad out the competition. Reducing the VFL to a smaller enough size for everyone to play each other is a good thing in my opinion, and opens up the space for new standalone clubs to join on the pff chance they'd ever desire to.

Why would any Vic club choose that comp?

It's good for the other 8 because WC and Port don't want to play their state leagues. It's good for the Northern clubs because they get a more competitive league than the NEAFL (I'm including Southport in this). It's a good soft entry for Tassie to build on before getting into the AFL.

10 sides is fine for a reserves league.

 

[AussieNick1999]

Why would any Vic club choose that comp?

It's good for the other 8 because WC and Port don't want to play their state leagues. It's good for the Northern clubs because they get a more competitive league than the NEAFL (I'm including Southport in this). It's a good soft entry for Tassie to build on before getting into the AFL.

10 sides is fine for a reserves league.

Honestly they probably wouldn't. I suggested it only because I think a VFL of 12-14 clubs would be ideal for an 18-game season. I could see some of the interstate AFL clubs being unhappy about having to send their reserves to another state while the senior team plays in Victoria, so having a few Vic sides in the reserves comp might ease those concerns.

 

[eth-dog]

Honestly they probably wouldn't. I suggested it only because I think a VFL of 12-14 clubs would be ideal for an 18-game season. I could see some of the interstate AFL clubs being unhappy about having to send their reserves to another state while the senior team plays in Victoria, so having a few Vic sides in the reserves comp might ease those concerns.

Sorry but that's irrelevant. If West Coast don't want to send their reserves to Sydney whilst playing in Victoria then don't leave the WAFL.

Also is rather a 20 game season. Start same time as the AFL. 2 byes. Play 5 teams twice

Victorian clubs want the VFL back to what it was from 2000 onwards. I have heard multiple clubs saying that. Interstate clubs seemingly want reserves footy away from their state leagues.

And why would a Vic club want to play every other week in a different state when you have 15 clubs down here?

 

[AussieNick1999]

Sorry but that's irrelevant. If West Coast don't want to send their reserves to Sydney whilst playing in Victoria then don't leave the WAFL.

Also is rather a 20 game season. Start same time as the AFL. 2 byes. Play 5 teams twice

Victorian clubs want the VFL back to what it was from 2000 onwards. I have heard multiple clubs saying that. Interstate clubs seemingly want reserves footy away from their state leagues.

And why would a Vic club want to play every other week in a different state when you have 15 clubs down here?

I'd be happy with a 20 game season. VFL returning to its 2000-2019 format is also fine with me.

As for what arrangements the interstate clubs want to make with their reserves, I really don't give a shit. I only mentioned the idea of Vic sides being included in a reserves league because I wondered if the non-Vic clubs wouldn't be happy with a reserves setup where only they travel interstate. Whether they decide to stay in their own state leagues or group together to form a ressies league, I don't care. Neither route really affects the VFL.

 

[Slax]

Anyone thinking that a VSFA would happen is a fool with no idea about local footy, so should stick to watching the match fixing that is AFL.

VAFA clubs will not join, they run their own show as it is.

The stronger metro leagues won't join as fans wont travel.

As for country leagues, try it and clubs would fold as sponsors would walk away. Local footy needs local sponsors who wont pay to be in a state league as no financial benefit from it for them.

For the comment about under 21 is all AFL want. Do that and Aussie Rules dies is 5 years. Soccer is murdering Aussie Rules at all under age levels, to a point that in some parts of Melbourne juniors clubs have lost grounds to soccer as councils must go with demand. If you don't want to believe that explain why now they can't fill the oval at half-time with Auskick kids? 5 years ago they could now they can't.

 

[MortlockWatcher]

VAFA clubs will not join, they run their own show as it is.

The stronger metro leagues won't join as fans wont travel.

As for country leagues, try it and clubs would fold as sponsors would walk away. Local footy needs local sponsors who wont pay to be in a state league as no financial benefit from it for them.

Agreed.

The AFL's funding will either stay with the VFL or be diverted to an AFL reserves competition when it is formed.

They will not fund both. If they go with an AFL reserves, then the money vanishes for a VFL/VFA competition.