Time to fold the VFL?

[Slax]

Agreed.

The AFL's funding will either stay with the VFL or be diverted to an AFL reserves competition when it is formed.

They will not fund both. If they go with an AFL reserves, then the money vanishes for a VFL/VFA competition.

Of the standalone VFL clubs hard to see many surviving. The issue isnt just about funding a new league to take then but at what level would they enter?

AFL might give them a parachute payment but they'll probably need to threaten the league with going to court first. The guaranteed way to get AFL to pay up is threaten to put them on the stand under oath, they know they're dodgy as.

 

[Epictetus]

So if the VFL disbands, what happens to the players? What happens to the comp that provides the vast majority of players to the AFL outside of the Coates league? Just go an play local footy and disappear?

 

[AussieNick1999]

So if the VFL disbands, what happens to the players? What happens to the comp that provides the vast majority of players to the AFL outside of the Coates league? Just go an play local footy and disappear?

Considering that the majority of VFL teams are reserves teams algined to AFL clubs, those teams will likely continue as normal in an AFL reserves competition. I don't think the AFL cares about those who are playing for the few standalones left. They might even view it as a chance to shed some of the fringe players who aren't good enough to get drafted and consolidate the best second-tier players in a streamlined reserves league.

I've seen people on these very forums arguing that the VFL needs a reduction in size and that the weaker standalone clubs should be culled. I highly doubt the AFL has any more respect for us than those people do.

 

[MortlockWatcher]

Media report tonight over here in the west saying that West Coast are set to announce its commitment to the WAFL for the near future.

 

[Epictetus]

Considering that the majority of VFL teams are reserves teams algined to AFL clubs, those teams will likely continue as normal in an AFL reserves competition. I don't think the AFL cares about those who are playing for the few standalones left. They might even view it as a chance to shed some of the fringe players who aren't good enough to get drafted and consolidate the best second-tier players in a streamlined reserves league.

I've seen people on these very forums arguing that the VFL needs a reduction in size and that the weaker standalone clubs should be culled. I highly doubt the AFL has any more respect for us than those people do.

There are 6. That's 240 players with a legit opportunity to play state league on merit, not just because there are injuries at AFL clubs. And these clubs provide most of the draftable players.

And the two worst VFL clubs on performance right now is probably Collingwood and Carlton !!

 

[glengowan]

There was big carry on from Port Adelaide (and Crows silently followed) regarding them playing in the SANFL. They were unhappy with the playing conditions and wanting to join the VFL. In the end, the SANFL didn't want them leaving and neither did the AFL, but have given both Port and the Crows very generous top up player rules for 2025 and beyond. They signed the initial contract for 15 years, so that expires in 2028. Apparently West Coast were also wanting to join an AFL Reserves/VFL league, but Freo were happy with their arrangements with Peel Thunder and staying in the WAFL.

There is clearly concern from the SANFL admin of going alone. I get the feeling most of your average SANFL supporters want a non-AFL Reserves competition, but those in club land and in the SANFL seem to see trouble in both player and corporate retention if the AFL teams aren't involved. The AFL clubs want to compete on a level playing field against other AFL clubs.

So, what if the SANFL came under the AFL umbrella and the AFL used the ANFL as the branding for the 2nd tier competition which was a melding of all the AFL Reserves teams in the country, as well as the SANFL and VFL.

A (Southern)ANFL consisting of 17 teams and an (Eastern)ANFL consisting of 17 teams.

The SANFL to retain the traditions, Magarey Medal etc and the EANFL to retain the traditions of the old VFA/VFL, JJ Liston medal etc. Much like the VFL became the AFL.

22 Rounds, with 2 byes. Double up games against teams in your own state as much as possible. For example, each team would only need to travel to WA once. Vic teams to SA 6 times. SANFL clubs only making 2/3 trips to Vic and 1 trip to WA per season.

Top 8 with the Grand Finals as is now on AFL Preliminary weekend. Potentially, as a curtain raiser to the AFL Grand Final, the winners could play for the ANFL championship, or not.

SANFL
Collingwood
Carlton
Richmond
North Melbourne
Essendon
West Coast
Fremantle/Peel
Adelaide
Port Adelaide
Plus the 8 SANFL clubs

EANFL
Geelong
Western Bulldogs
Box Hill/Hawthorn
Sandringham/St Kilda
Casey/Melbourne
Sydney
GWS
Brisbane
Gold Coast
Plus Tasmania
Plus the 6 VFL standalone clubs
Plus Southport

Potential expansion of a 3rd WA club and NT for the SANFL. Perhaps a Canberra and North QLD team for the EANFL?

Other things to consider would be all players, including the standalone clubs, coming under the AFL TPP.

Would this give a stronger 2nd tier base and better outcomes for the standalone clubs, with AFL marketing? More interesting commercially than just AFL Reserves? Not so messy as the VFL currently is with 21 teams. Better equality for the likes of the SA and WA AFL teams, competing against their AFL opposition on more occasions. Opportunity for expansion via this competition first for places like Canberra, NT, WA3 and NQLD.

Watching the old teams on the old suburban grounds, many of which have been done up and have AFLW as well. It could work with SA due to distance and it would need the Victorian AFL clubs to split down the middle to create equitable leagues in terms of travel.

 

[MortlockWatcher]

Victorian clubs will want to be all together so I cannot see this coming to fruition.

They will want a system whereby the 1s and 2s are either double-headers (like we had until the 1990s) or playing close by so that emergencies can get a game in the 2s and also it allows players to be pulled out of a team and into the AFL team on short notice.

If Essendon's 2s are playing North Adelaide at Prospect while their 1s are playing at Geelong these things can't happen.

 

[SeaSide]

There was big carry on from Port Adelaide (and Crows silently followed) regarding them playing in the SANFL. They were unhappy with the playing conditions and wanting to join the VFL. In the end, the SANFL didn't want them leaving and neither did the AFL, but have given both Port and the Crows very generous top up player rules for 2025 and beyond. They signed the initial contract for 15 years, so that expires in 2028. Apparently West Coast were also wanting to join an AFL Reserves/VFL league, but Freo were happy with their arrangements with Peel Thunder and staying in the WAFL.

There is clearly concern from the SANFL admin of going alone. I get the feeling most of your average SANFL supporters want a non-AFL Reserves competition, but those in club land and in the SANFL seem to see trouble in both player and corporate retention if the AFL teams aren't involved. The AFL clubs want to compete on a level playing field against other AFL clubs.

So, what if the SANFL came under the AFL umbrella and the AFL used the ANFL as the branding for the 2nd tier competition which was a melding of all the AFL Reserves teams in the country, as well as the SANFL and VFL.

A (Southern)ANFL consisting of 17 teams and an (Eastern)ANFL consisting of 17 teams.

The SANFL to retain the traditions, Magarey Medal etc and the EANFL to retain the traditions of the old VFA/VFL, JJ Liston medal etc. Much like the VFL became the AFL.

22 Rounds, with 2 byes. Double up games against teams in your own state as much as possible. For example, each team would only need to travel to WA once. Vic teams to SA 6 times. SANFL clubs only making 2/3 trips to Vic and 1 trip to WA per season.

Top 8 with the Grand Finals as is now on AFL Preliminary weekend. Potentially, as a curtain raiser to the AFL Grand Final, the winners could play for the ANFL championship, or not.

SANFL
Collingwood
Carlton
Richmond
North Melbourne
Essendon
West Coast
Fremantle/Peel
Adelaide
Port Adelaide
Plus the 8 SANFL clubs

EANFL
Geelong
Western Bulldogs
Box Hill/Hawthorn
Sandringham/St Kilda
Casey/Melbourne
Sydney
GWS
Brisbane
Gold Coast
Plus Tasmania
Plus the 6 VFL standalone clubs
Plus Southport

Potential expansion of a 3rd WA club and NT for the SANFL. Perhaps a Canberra and North QLD team for the EANFL?

Other things to consider would be all players, including the standalone clubs, coming under the AFL TPP.

Would this give a stronger 2nd tier base and better outcomes for the standalone clubs, with AFL marketing? More interesting commercially than just AFL Reserves? Not so messy as the VFL currently is with 21 teams. Better equality for the likes of the SA and WA AFL teams, competing against their AFL opposition on more occasions. Opportunity for expansion via this competition first for places like Canberra, NT, WA3 and NQLD.

Watching the old teams on the old suburban grounds, many of which have been done up and have AFLW as well. It could work with SA due to distance and it would need the Victorian AFL clubs to split down the middle to create equitable leagues in terms of travel.

Well thought out.
I like it; the AFL would probably tweak it, but that's to be expected.
Then again, when has the Hierarchy ever accepted good ideas from us plebs?

 

[The Tilt]

There was big carry on from Port Adelaide (and Crows silently followed) regarding them playing in the SANFL. They were unhappy with the playing conditions and wanting to join the VFL. In the end, the SANFL didn't want them leaving and neither did the AFL, but have given both Port and the Crows very generous top up player rules for 2025 and beyond. They signed the initial contract for 15 years, so that expires in 2028. Apparently West Coast were also wanting to join an AFL Reserves/VFL league, but Freo were happy with their arrangements with Peel Thunder and staying in the WAFL.

There is clearly concern from the SANFL admin of going alone. I get the feeling most of your average SANFL supporters want a non-AFL Reserves competition, but those in club land and in the SANFL seem to see trouble in both player and corporate retention if the AFL teams aren't involved. The AFL clubs want to compete on a level playing field against other AFL clubs.

So, what if the SANFL came under the AFL umbrella and the AFL used the ANFL as the branding for the 2nd tier competition which was a melding of all the AFL Reserves teams in the country, as well as the SANFL and VFL.

A (Southern)ANFL consisting of 17 teams and an (Eastern)ANFL consisting of 17 teams.

The SANFL to retain the traditions, Magarey Medal etc and the EANFL to retain the traditions of the old VFA/VFL, JJ Liston medal etc. Much like the VFL became the AFL.

22 Rounds, with 2 byes. Double up games against teams in your own state as much as possible. For example, each team would only need to travel to WA once. Vic teams to SA 6 times. SANFL clubs only making 2/3 trips to Vic and 1 trip to WA per season.

Top 8 with the Grand Finals as is now on AFL Preliminary weekend. Potentially, as a curtain raiser to the AFL Grand Final, the winners could play for the ANFL championship, or not.

SANFL
Collingwood
Carlton
Richmond
North Melbourne
Essendon
West Coast
Fremantle/Peel
Adelaide
Port Adelaide
Plus the 8 SANFL clubs

EANFL
Geelong
Western Bulldogs
Box Hill/Hawthorn
Sandringham/St Kilda
Casey/Melbourne
Sydney
GWS
Brisbane
Gold Coast
Plus Tasmania
Plus the 6 VFL standalone clubs
Plus Southport

Potential expansion of a 3rd WA club and NT for the SANFL. Perhaps a Canberra and North QLD team for the EANFL?

Other things to consider would be all players, including the standalone clubs, coming under the AFL TPP.

Would this give a stronger 2nd tier base and better outcomes for the standalone clubs, with AFL marketing? More interesting commercially than just AFL Reserves? Not so messy as the VFL currently is with 21 teams. Better equality for the likes of the SA and WA AFL teams, competing against their AFL opposition on more occasions. Opportunity for expansion via this competition first for places like Canberra, NT, WA3 and NQLD.

Watching the old teams on the old suburban grounds, many of which have been done up and have AFLW as well. It could work with SA due to distance and it would need the Victorian AFL clubs to split down the middle to create equitable leagues in terms of travel.

Much as I like people thinking outside of the box, I can't see anything like this happening:

• If WC and Freo agree to exit the WAFL, it will be to enter an AFL reserves. I can't see them being interested in joining some new competition that involves their reserves teams spending half the season in Adelaide.
• Maybe SANFL clubs benefit from continuing to play against AFL opposition. On the other hand they're left with a completely bastardised version of the SANFL, along with the costs of regular interstate travel.
• The standalone VFA/L clubs are significant losers: they're having to travel much more, and no longer host large Victorian clubs (apparently this is where they make a lot of their money). While we're at it, I really can't see what's in it for the Victorian AFL clubs either.

If the WA and SA clubs exit their state leagues, then we'll have a national reserves comps, and the VFA, SANFL and WAFL will return to being genuine state leagues. There'll be challenges for the clubs adjusting to this but I'm sure they'll manage.

 

[glengowan]

Much as I like people thinking outside of the box, I can't see anything like this happening:

• If WC and Freo agree to exit the WAFL, it will be to enter an AFL reserves. I can't see them being interested in joining some new competition that involves their reserves teams spending half the season in Adelaide.
• Maybe SANFL clubs benefit from continuing to play against AFL opposition. On the other hand they're left with a completely bastardised version of the SANFL, along with the costs of regular interstate travel.
• The standalone VFA/L clubs are significant losers: they're having to travel much more, and no longer host large Victorian clubs (apparently this is where they make a lot of their money). While we're at it, I really can't see what's in it for the Victorian AFL clubs either.

If the WA and SA clubs exit their state leagues, then we'll have a national reserves comps, and the VFA, SANFL and WAFL will return to being genuine state leagues. There'll be challenges for the clubs adjusting to this but I'm sure they'll manage.

Fair call. Your last para is what I am most concerned about. I would've thought the same, and therefore would've thought this year was a perfect time for, at the very least, Port and Adelaide to join the VFL with the SANFL's blessing and for the SANFL to work on adjusting to life without AFL. However, the SANFL were so keen on keeping the AFL clubs, they were willing to give them playing benefits that will likely see both AFL teams towards the top of the SANFL ladder and the genuine SANFL clubs struggling to keep up.

This says to me, the SANFL don't see a future for their league competition without Port and Crows involvement. They rely on AFL funding. Hence my suggestion (good or bad) above.

I think the SANFL probably shot itself in the foot with decisions made in 2014 and they've doubled down in 2024.

I think the SANFL clubs and competition will probably become more like the U18 Vic clubs as time goes by, and that would greatly disappoint me.

The topic of this thread is "time to fold the VFL?" and this is very relevant to the SANFL competition as well. If there is an AFL, an AFL Reserves and a community competition, why the need for State League mens football and importantly, how do they survive financially? It is very different to the cricket system where Cricket Australia is encouraging of the pathways through Premier Cricket and we still see Australian level cricketers play for their Premier clubs against and amongst other players who are paying subs to play. Cricket seems to have found a sustainable model. Footy at the same level hasn't.

 

[whiskeytown]

If/when the AFL reserves comp starts… the AFL can easily enough fund both that… and the stand-alone Melbourne teams in a VFL comp

The VFL comp goes from the AFL subsiding stand-alone clubs (for flights etc) to those clubs paying a license fee… which will cover the relative minimal cost of running a Melbourne only competition in the threadbare way that the VFLW and under 18s Talent League are run

Like the WAFL and SANFL… The VFL stand-alone clubs then provide top up players, and a pool of players for AFL clubs to draft/rookie

If there is no semi professional 2nd tier of football in Victoria… do people think clubs will just draft players straight out of train twice a week suburban clubs?

 

[Coolangatta]

Bump.

If the VFL is going to dissolve, why doesn’t the AFL just eat the lot and use the state clubs to set up two reserves leagues?

One league with the traditional WAFL and SANFL clubs.

One league with VFL clubs like Frankston, Port Melbourne, Fitzroy, and so on, plus the NEAFL clubs.

Put money into them and see if they can grow interest and turn them into professional competitions.

Do that and then in 20+ years you could seriously consider a system where the bottom two clubs are relegated to these reserve leagues and the premiers of the two leagues are promoted.

The AFL would have 20 teams max with 2 going up and 2 going down each year.

Instead of never ending expansion of the AFL, this could be the way to go.

Alternatively, it might be cheaper to have the WAFL, SANFL and VFL as separate leagues and bring back the NEAFL but for the AFL to take over and professionally develop these leagues, then use them to have a relegation/promotion system when the state leagues get better in quality and professionalism.

How much would it cost to do that compared to setting up an AFL reserves league?

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Would scrapping the salary cap in the VFL be better or worse for the standalone clubs?

 

[AussieNick1999]

Would scrapping the salary cap in the VFL be better or worse for the standalone clubs?

It's a double-edged sword. While 250k is a stupidly low amount for the standard of football being played in my opinion, raising or scrapping the salary cap altogether only benefits the clubs that can afford to pay that much money. As it is I think we're only just paying the full salary cap. Add an extra $100k to the cap and we'll struggle to retain players again, same with Coburg and Preston. Scrap it altogether, and I guarantee the premiership would be a rotation of Southport, Werribee, and Williamstown. You could maybe add Port Melbourne to that mix if they sorted out their financial issues.

The real issue with the VFL is the massive gulf in resources between clubs. And that's less easy to solve.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

It's a double-edged sword. While 250k is a stupidly low amount for the standard of football being played in my opinion, raising or scrapping the salary cap altogether only benefits the clubs that can afford to pay that much money. As it is I think we're only just paying the full salary cap. Add an extra $100k to the cap and we'll struggle to retain players again, same with Coburg and Preston. Scrap it altogether, and I guarantee the premiership would be a rotation of Southport, Werribee, and Williamstown. You could maybe add Port Melbourne to that mix if they sorted out their financial issues.

The real issue with the VFL is the massive gulf in resources between clubs. And that's less easy to solve.

Interesting. Are there any clubs outside the VFL who are wealthy enough to match Southport, Werribee, Williamstown and Port?

 

[AussieNick1999]

Interesting. Are there any clubs outside the VFL who are wealthy enough to match Southport, Werribee, Williamstown and Port?

Some SANFL clubs, probably. If you mean Victoria specifically, I'm sure there are a fair few local clubs around the state with a lot of cash to throw around (based on the stories you hear going around of what some local footballers can make on a weekend.) But keep in mind, Werribee and Southport in particular are pulling in a ridiculous amount of money. Southport are raking in millions in profit if I remember their annual report correctly, and Werribee are apparently too embarrassed to give a figure on what they're making. But the pokies business is a goldmine to these clubs. Williamstown have a fair bit of cash as well but I'm not sure even they are on that level.