Time to fold the VFL?

[CrowFan77]

Yesterday was Grand Final day for the second tier leagues around Australia. 33K fans showed up to watch the SANFL GF and 27K fans showed up to watch the WAFL GF, but only a paltry 7K turned up for the VFL GF.

The question has to be asked "Is it time to fold the VFL?". Surely an AFL reserves GF would draw a better crowd than that! Or, better yet, we have a curtain raiser for the AFL GF.

The VFL really appears to be on death row.

 

[SeaSide]

It

Yesterday was Grand Final day for the second tier leagues around Australia. 33K fans showed up to watch the SANFL GF and 27K fans showed up to watch the WAFL GF, but only a paltry 7K turned up for the VFL GF.

The question has to be asked "Is it time to fold the VFL?". Surely an AFL reserves GF would draw a better crowd than that! Or, better yet, we have a curtain raiser for the AFL GF.

The VFL really appears to be on death row.

It's a compromised competition, therefore not many people are interested.
The former VFA H&A games often had more spectators than current VFL finals' crowds.

 

[eth-dog]

No. Next question

 

[CrowFan77]

It

It's a compromised competition, therefore not many people are interested.
The former VFA H&A games often had more spectators than current VFL finals' crowds.

So, your saying they had 40,000+ turning up to VFA H&A games? The last VFA GF (before it merged with the VFL in 1996) had a crowd of 6445.

What are you smoking?

 

[MortlockWatcher]

It's a compromised competition, therefore not many people are interested.
The former VFA H&A games often had more spectators than current VFL finals' crowds.

I agree.

In 1981:

There was three 10,000+ crowds for home and away matches, including 12500 for the Sandringham-Port Melbourne clash at Beach Road. They were the last instances of this happening in VFA history due to the Sydney Swans home matches being screened live on Sundays from 1982 onwards.

There was a total of 18 home and away crowds of 5000 or more in First Division (at an average of 1 in 5 matches) and once in Second Division (5000 for the top of the ladder clash between Werribee and Waverley - plus a handful of 4000+ crowds as well).

The average First Division H&A crowd was 3388 in 1981, and the latter rounds were impacted by two Sunday MCG matches (Ess v Coll and SM v Carl).

The VFA crowds by division on 19/7 was 19250 (FD) and 11500 (SD) and two weeks later, on the same day that Essendon-Collingwood was watched by 64,149, the VFA drew just 14180 spectators to its 10 matches (8350 and 5830).

 

[MortlockWatcher]

So, your saying they had 40,000+ turning up to VFA H&A games? The last VFA GF (before it merged with the VFL in 1996) had a crowd of 6445.

What are you smoking?

No, you will find he is suggesting that a VFA H&A crowd in the halcyon era of the 70s and early 80s is higher than what the VFL can draw to a final.

Five-figure crowds were relatively common in this era - nearly 855,000 attended the 1978 home and away matches alone across both divisions. The First Division Grand Finals between 1975 and 1978 all drew more than 25,000 to the Junction Oval. Only one Grand Final crowd in the VFL era has surpassed 18,000 - Footscray's win in 2014 with nearly 24,000 present.

Even the 1981 Second Division decider between Camberwell and Waverley (8250) outdrew Sunday's VFL crowd.

 

[SeaSide]

No, you will find he is suggesting that a VFA H&A crowd in the halcyon era of the 70s and early 80s is higher than what the VFL can draw to a final.

Five-figure crowds were relatively common in this era - nearly 855,000 attended the 1978 home and away matches alone across both divisions. The First Division Grand Finals between 1975 and 1978 all drew more than 25,000 to the Junction Oval. Only one Grand Final crowd in the VFL era has surpassed 18,000 - Footscray's win in 2014 with nearly 24,000 present.

Even the 1981 Second Division decider between Camberwell and Waverley (8250) outdrew Sunday's VFL crowd.

Thank you MortlockWatcher. You were astute and intelligent enough to understand what I had written without tarnishing my thoughts.

Regarding the (current) VFL, I mentioned that “It's a compromised competition, therefore not many people are interested.
The former VFA H&A games often had more spectators than current VFL finals' crowds”.

CrowFan77 said:

Q. So, your (try you’re) saying they had 40,000+ turning up to VFA H&A games?

A. No, that’s not what I wrote.

Many former VFA grounds could hold, at a pinch, 15,000 spectators, as Port, Sandy, Waverley, Willi, Werribee and several more. If asked I can elaborate, but I don’t think that I’m stupid enough to suggest 40,000 at a VFA H&A game.

No true former VFA follower would suggest that, as many former VFL grounds, including Carlton and Victoria Park couldn’t fit in 40,000.

 

[Tandy]

No. But it should revert back to the old VFA sides + others. AFL to have reserves comp. Try to lean on its history and get all Victorians to adopt a second team to follow. It will never be as strong as other state leagues as Victoria's equivalent turned national. It's like SAAFL div 1 teams stepping up to SANFL

 

[Seedsfan]

No. But it should revert back to the old VFA sides + others. AFL to have reserves comp. Try to lean on its history and get all Victorians to adopt a second team to follow. It will never be as strong as other state leagues as Victoria's equivalent turned national. It's like SAAFL div 1 teams stepping up to SANFL

I think they should look at the Queensland cup. Try and emulate that.

 

[SeaSide]

I think they should look at the Queensland cup. Try and emulate that.

How does that work? Would (whatever the scenario is) it work in Metropolitan Melbourne and (perhaps) interested country clubs.

 

[Seedsfan]

How does that work? Would (whatever the scenario is) it work in Metropolitan Melbourne and (perhaps) interested country clubs.

I guess it works in Queensland as they manage to get the funding from businesses in the regional centres that means the Queensland cup sides are the highest paying

 

[MortlockWatcher]

Can't see country clubs getting involved again. All hopes went when North Ballarat pulled the pin.

Local leagues would be decimated by the addition of a VFL team based in most regional centres. They are having a rotten enough time as it is now with the way AFLV treat them to go and dump a VFL team on them as well.

 

[catters05]

AFL clubs should no longer be apart of any other competition.

AFL reserves should be brought in for all clubs. VFL will need a bit of a refresh to sort out clubs etc, but probably the best thing for it with pulling the AFL clubs out. WAFL and SANFL will probably improve.

 

[eth-dog]

AFL clubs should no longer be apart of any other competition.

AFL reserves should be brought in for all clubs. VFL will need a bit of a refresh to sort out clubs etc, but probably the best thing for it with pulling the AFL clubs out. WAFL and SANFL will probably improve.

AFL clubs pulling out will kill it.

AFL reserves makes no sense for Victorian clubs. AFL clubs pulling out of the VFL will kill the VFL. What it was before the northern merger is the best way to have it.

 

[SeaSide]

AFL clubs pulling out will kill it.

AFL reserves makes no sense for Victorian clubs. AFL clubs pulling out of the VFL will kill the VFL. What it was before the northern merger is the best way to have it.

You are very correct ED.

A suggestion is to let the AFL take charge of their own Reserves League.

In this proposal, standalone clubs can compete in their own league, including a promotion and relegation system for Victorian district and country clubs. The top two finishers of each league (if they choose) can participate in a playoff after the home and away season, which could last for about five or six weeks, starting after the VFLW is over.

The winner and runner-up, or more can then be promoted to the prestigious Victorian State Football Association/Alliance (VSFA).

This league could be structured like the English Premier League (EPL) where every club in the country has a chance to reach the top level. Promoted clubs will keep their reserves in their local competition and return there if relegated.

The VSFA could become the strongest state league in the country.

 

[eth-dog]

You are very correct ED.

A suggestion is to let the AFL take charge of their own Reserves League.

In this proposal, standalone clubs can compete in their own league, including a promotion and relegation system for Victorian district and country clubs. The top two finishers of each league (if they choose) can participate in a playoff after the home and away season, which could last for about five or six weeks, starting after the VFLW is over.

The winner and runner-up, or more can then be promoted to the prestigious Victorian State Football Association/Alliance (VSFA).

This league could be structured like the English Premier League (EPL) where every club in the country has a chance to reach the top level. Promoted clubs will keep their reserves in their local competition and return there if relegated.

The VSFA could become the strongest state league in the country.

Or, as an alternative, every AFL club outside Victoria can have their reserves league along with Southport and Tassie and the VFL can go back to where it was before the Northern states joined.

 

[SeaSide]

Or, as an alternative, every AFL club outside Victoria can have their reserves league along with Southport and Tassie and the VFL can go back to where it was before the Northern states joined.

I don't think that either of our suggestions will get up.

 

[Fizzler]

Can't see country clubs getting involved again. All hopes went when North Ballarat pulled the pin.

Local leagues would be decimated by the addition of a VFL team based in most regional centres. They are having a rotten enough time as it is now with the way AFLV treat them to go and dump a VFL team on them as well.

Not sure I agree completely regarding local leagues. I think you’d find that simply being a VFL club (as in its a good pathway to eventually playing in the AFL) is the main reason these clubs can attract the talent that they do. I’d say Preston, Coburg and Frankston would eventually either weaken to the level to their local clubs play at (if they’re not already there) or cease to exist as those who support a local club and a VFL standalone are more likely to follow their local club.
Regarding the richer/stronger clubs, most local leagues have their clubs that are filthy rich and/or just dominant (think Keilor in the EDFL, Heidelberg in the NFNL, Deer Park in the WRFL prior to COVID, etc.) and when these clubs are no longer the attractive destination for aspiring AFL talent, they’ll also weaken a bit too.
Obviously I hope we don’t see a time period where there’s no state level league in Victoria for a long long time, and I’d like to see more local clubs make the jump like what used to happen in the VFA up until what, the 70s? But in the event the VFL ceases to exist and the standalone fall to local level, I’d be more worried about the VFA clubs rather than the local leagues and their clubs.

 

[MortlockWatcher]

I agree with what you are saying. My second paragraph was in reference to the effect of country VFL clubs on the local league around them (e.g. Bendigo and the BFNL).

 

[Fizzler]

I agree with what you are saying. My second paragraph was in reference to the effect of country VFL clubs on the local league around them (e.g. Bendigo and the BFNL).

Ohhh right upon re-reading it that makes a lot of sense, I missed the context somehow. As a Melbourne based person I never got to experience the Roosters and Gold’s impact on their respective local leagues so I need to ask this, but I thought it was the fact that the residents already had local teams they were far more attached to that led to the demise of both VFL sides. Was that actually the case or am I imagining it? I still get the sense my point on local club allegiances being stronger than VFL allegiances would be even more relevant in regional cities than in Melbourne.

 

[glengowan]

You are very correct ED.

A suggestion is to let the AFL take charge of their own Reserves League.

In this proposal, standalone clubs can compete in their own league, including a promotion and relegation system for Victorian district and country clubs. The top two finishers of each league (if they choose) can participate in a playoff after the home and away season, which could last for about five or six weeks, starting after the VFLW is over.

The winner and runner-up, or more can then be promoted to the prestigious Victorian State Football Association/Alliance (VSFA).

This league could be structured like the English Premier League (EPL) where every club in the country has a chance to reach the top level. Promoted clubs will keep their reserves in their local competition and return there if relegated.

The VSFA could become the strongest state league in the country.

I really like this concept. Have often thought about the equivalent in SA for senior football.

 

[SeaSide]

I really like this concept. Have often thought about the equivalent in SA for senior football.

Thanks gg. Have been thinking long term for our former VFA clubs and feel that they could be walking the plank.
In answer to, “Where will the games be played?”

If When the VFL reverts to a Victorian based AFL Reserves format, or even a nationwide AFL reserves competition, the option of a VSFA is certainly there.

Apart from the current former VFA clubs, which would see their support replenished, joined by powerful district teams, possibly Balwyn, Vermont, Keilor, Strathmore, Heidelberg, Bundoora, Cheltenham, Bacchus Marsh and perhaps a few others that could compete in an after-season competition to select the incoming clubs.

Games for admission to the VSFA played after the conclusion of the VFLW, which will maintain AFL interest into November, could be played at grounds where cricket is no longer played.

To name a few, Essendon’s hangar, Footscray, Frankston, Moorabbin, North Melbourne, Princes Park, Richmond, and Victoria Park. Some clubs may be able to use their grounds, albeit paying a stipend to their local cricket clubs.

This proposal will need to be discussed in depth so that the last finishing teams if they choose, play off against local clubs that played in their respective Grand Finals. I would suggest three games and a finals series which will depend on the number of applicants.

Playing off for local clubs shouldn’t be mandatory, and an exit by established clubs should be acceptable.

Clubs relegated then return to their respective leagues where their reserves have been holding the fort.

As previously mentioned, such a format enables any AFL club in Victoria to aspire for admittance to the VSFA, potentially a very powerful state competition in Australia. (Viz the EPL [England.])

 

[SeaSide]

Thanks gg. Have been thinking long term for our former VFA clubs and feel that they could be walking the plank.
In answer to, “Where will the games be played?”

If When the VFL reverts to a Victorian based AFL Reserves format, or even a nationwide AFL reserves competition, the option of a VSFA is certainly there.

Apart from the current former VFA clubs, which would see their support replenished, joined by powerful district teams, possibly Balwyn, Vermont, Keilor, Strathmore, Heidelberg, Bundoora, Cheltenham, Bacchus Marsh and perhaps a few others that could compete in an after-season competition to select the incoming clubs.

Games for admission to the VSFA played after the conclusion of the VFLW, which will maintain AFL interest into November, could be played at grounds where cricket is no longer played.

To name a few, Essendon’s hangar, Footscray, Frankston, Moorabbin, North Melbourne, Princes Park, Richmond, and Victoria Park. Some clubs may be able to use their grounds, albeit paying a stipend to their local cricket clubs.

This proposal will need to be discussed in depth so that the last finishing teams if they choose, play off against local clubs that played in their respective Grand Finals. I would suggest three games and a finals series which will depend on the number of applicants.

Playing off for local clubs shouldn’t be mandatory, and an exit by established clubs should be acceptable.

Clubs relegated then return to their respective leagues where their reserves have been holding the fort.

As previously mentioned, such a format enables any AFL club in Victoria to aspire for admittance to the VSFA, potentially a very powerful state competition in Australia. (Viz the EPL [England.])

I'm not suggesting "do it now".
The former VFA clubs appear to be quite comfortable within the existing format, however it wouldn't hurt to be ready once the AFL decides that our proud clubs are pushed off the cliff.

 

[AussieNick1999]

I'm not suggesting "do it now".
The former VFA clubs appear to be quite comfortable within the existing format, however it wouldn't hurt to be ready once the AFL decides that our proud clubs are pushed off the cliff.

The contingency plans need to be in place. I have no doubt the AFL will discard us if it's decided we're no longer useful.

Port, Williamstown, and Werribee have done well to be successful. Frankston aren't thriving but we're surviving. Coburg and the Bullants are the two I worry for the most. I fear for their survival regardless of whether a standalone VFL happens or not.

 

[MortlockWatcher]

I think the AFL agenda is to re-instate the AFL reserves competition in the next couple of years and do away with a state league tier completely in Victoria (and in time have the WAFL and SANFL operate as colts competitions as well).

The AFL strongly advocates the American college system and are trying to implement it slowly by stealth. They don't want people over the age of 21 playing grassroots footy, they want them to be at an AFL game - paying for memberships, ground admission fees, merchandise and food and drink that they all get a share of. Senior grassroots football is an expenditure that they would rather not have. Every dollar spent at a grassroots match is revenue that they would rather you to spend on them.

Of course, they will always want the kids to be playing Auskick and junior footy, with the best players going on the Under 18 system and then onto AFL lists. When the rest of the players don't reach these levels, they want you to go and attend AFL matches instead.

Why would they want to fund a state league in Victoria when their intended model is:
Junior footy -> Under 18 leagues (which will probably become U21 when the AFL reserves returns) -> AFL reserves -> AFL

Funding a revived VFA would not be their preference as they would not consider that part of their model.