Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[IlovethePies]

A nuclear exchange would end the world as we know it. It would set off an unstoppable chain of events once the first nuclear bomb is sent.

Exactly. That is why it is necessary to avoid it.

That is why the Russian and Ukrainian workers have to reject this war and instead wage a political war against the Zelensky and Putin government.

Their allies are the workers thorughout all of Europe who are strongly opposed to the war in Ukraine, and opposed to the measures of austerity that all governments are imposing.

And this would resonate with the working class in the US as well, who did not vote for Trump but rather voted against the Democrats. The Democrats offered them nothing but a continuation of war, and complete indifference/contempt for the precarious economic conditions that millions of working class families in the US are being forced to endure.

What is necessary is an international anti-war and anti-capitalist movement in the working class to overthrow all these criminal capitalist governments.

 

[Mobbs]

It's like robot wars in here.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Exactly. That is why it is necessary to avoid it.

That is why the Russian and Ukrainian workers have to reject this war and instead wage a political war against the Zelensky and Putin government.

Their allies are the workers thorughout all of Europe who are strongly opposed to the war in Ukraine, and opposed to the measures of austerity that all governments are imposing.

And this would resonate with the working class in the US as well, who did not vote for Trump but rather voted against the Democrats. The Democrats offered them nothing but a continuation of war, and complete indifference/contempt for the precarious economic conditions that millions of working class families in the US are being forced to endure.

What is necessary is an international anti-war and anti-capitalist movement in the working class to overthrow all these criminal capitalist governments.

lol Ukraine have two options, be r*ped and pillaged or fight.

We just need NATO to grow a set and send weapons that could cause Russia to implode.

 

[IlovethePies]

lol Ukraine have two options, be r*ped and pillaged or fight.

We just need NATO to grow a set and send weapons that could cause Russia to implode.

Your perspective leads straight to nuclear armageddon.

 

[Chief]

Seems to lead to a "windy road with plenty of stop signs to nuclear Armageddon" so far, ILP.

 

[IlovethePies]

Seems to lead to a "windy road with plenty of stop signs to nuclear Armageddon" so far, ILP.

Haven't seen a single stop sign.

And by the way, I don;t think Nuclear Armageddon is inevitable.

But only the international working class can stop it.

It was the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia that stopped the First World War.

This time it has to be repeated on an international scale.

Then, the threat of nuclear war - and all war - will be ended for all time.

 

[wannabejack]

 

[IlovethePies]

View attachment 2180176

As for you, I don't know you, but I'm sure you're a jerk.

 

[IlovethePies]

Mobbs
Agree.

There are many robots, automatons parroting the preprogrammed propaganda narratives of the US, and clearly what is necessary is a generalised reboot.

 

[IlovethePies]

Baldur

So Baldur, you don't think a nuclear war is all that bad ??

 

[Visions]

Nuclear war (the latest one) was supposed to start a few weeks back when Ukraine started firing all those NATO missiles into Russia.

Yet **** me, the world is still here.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Nuclear war (the latest one) was supposed to start a few weeks back when Ukraine started firing all those NATO missiles into Russia.

Yet **** me, the world is still here.

I would’ve thought Ukraine invading Russia would’ve been the biggest red line but here we are

 

[Visions]

Exactly. That is why it is necessary to avoid it.

That is why the Russian and Ukrainian workers have to reject this war and instead wage a political war against the Zelensky and Putin government.

Okay, lets for a minute go with this so called solution of yours and workers wage a political war against the Putin government.

How do they do it because l’m pretty sure that Putin aint going to do a “well chaps, you got me beat” and lie down.

 

[Visions]

I would’ve thought Ukraine invading Russia would’ve been the biggest red line but here we are

Yep, that was one of the other times we were promised Armageddon.

Guarantee in the next few weeks we will have the Kremlin and all the regular doomsayers promising more nuclear war that won’t be fulfilled.

 

[wannabejack]

As for you, I don't know you, but I'm sure you're a jerk.

The thing I like about that gif is that if the world doesn’t end I can say it was a joke but if the world does end I can tell those who survive I told you so.

 

[Val Keating]

Hi Val. Glad you're in this thread. Now, let's take a look what you've brought to the discussion today...



Oh dear, not a good start unfortunately.

As you've done many, many times before in the old NMFC politics thread, you've once again fallen for 'fake news' on the internet.

The photo you've posted here is fake, I'm afraid. And quite a famously fake photo too! It did the rounds back in 2023, but was quickly revealed to be a classic example of anti-semitic propaganda.

You can read about it more here, but the real photo is shown below;

View attachment 2180119


Moving on...




I did "miss this" because I don't tend to make it a priority to read the unhinged Twitter posts of a racist user who frequently posts faked/photoshopped images and faked videos.



Uhhhh... think you've got several facts wrong there.

The photo might be fake, but this isn’t

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-chief-acknowledges-long-claimed-weapons-supply-to-syrian-rebels/

 

[IlovethePies]

I would’ve thought Ukraine invading Russia would’ve been the biggest red line but here we are

Sure.

But do you know where the red line is located?

Because if you are assuming that there is no red line, and NATO/Ukraine can do whatever they like with impunity, I don;t think that your assumptions can be accepted by any rational person

This is because a rational person would say: How The F*** Would You Know?

And this rational person would add: WTF, you're willing to gamble the future of human civilisation on your totally unverifiable assumption??

 

[IlovethePies]

Okay, lets for a minute go with this so called solution of yours and workers wage a political war against the Putin government.

How do they do it because l’m pretty sure that Putin aint going to do a “well chaps, you got me beat” and lie down.

Yes of course Putin would.
And Zelensky would do absolutely the same.
Both are heads of dictatorial regimes.

So the working class urgently needs its own political party, an international party with a program to unite it internationally and seize political power.

Such a party already exists, but it urgently needs to be expanded in size, due to the urgency of the crisis that mankind confronts.

If you are interested in finding out more, PM me.

 

[CD Xbow]

Paul Dibbs has an article at the Strategist discussing the obvious problems of appeasement with an untrustworthy soul like Putin.
https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/war-and-appeasement-why-a-deal-with-putin-will-backfire/

 

[Mobbs]

So the working class urgently needs its own political party, an international party with a program to unite it internationally and seize political power.

Such a party already exists, but it urgently needs to be expanded in size, due to the urgency of the crisis that mankind confronts.

If you are interested in finding out more, PM me.

This would be the Socialist Equality Party, which I believe as of the last couple of years has been deregistered in Australia per lack of sufficient member base to satisfy AEC requirements.

 

[jatz14]

In the last days of his presidency, Biden is planning to open up the floodgates for further military assistance to Ukraine. He wants to present Trump with "facts on the ground", ie he wants to make sure that Trump cannot suddenly stop the war even if he genuinely wanted to.

“President Biden directed me to oversee a massive surge in the military equipment that we are delivering to Ukraine so that we have spent every dollar that Congress has appropriated to us by the time that President Biden leaves office,” Jake Sullivan (Biden's National Security advisor) said Sunday on ABC’s This Week talk show program.

On November 21, the New York Times reported that the Biden administration is discussing the possibility of allowing Ukraine to deploy nuclear weapons. The Times wrote that “Several officials even suggested that Mr. Biden could allow Ukraine to have nuclear weapons again, as it did before the fall of the Soviet Union. That would be an instant and enormous deterrent. But such a step would be complicated and have serious implications.”

In the interview with ABC, Sullivan was directly asked about the NYT report above. Predictably, he denied it, saying:
“That is not under consideration. No. What we are doing is surging various conventional capacities to Ukraine so that they can effectively defend themselves and take the fight to the Russians, not nuclear capability.”

It needs to be recalled that every escalatory action taken by the Biden administration against Russia, including sending Abrams battle tanks, F-16s and long-range weapons, was preceded by an equally categorical denial on the part of the Biden administration.

It's open war.

Giving Ukraine weapons is not escalating the war.

It's like saying giving a fireman a hose is escalating the fire.

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[IlovethePies]

This would be the Socialist Equality Party, which I believe as of the last couple of years has been deregistered in Australia per lack of sufficient member base to satisfy AEC requirements.

AEC requirements were increased by the Albanese government (supported by the Liberal opposition) were suddenly trebled in August 2021 (in the middle of the COVID lockdowns) from 500 members to 1500 members.

This was a blatant bipartisan plan to prevent the registration of smaller parties, particulary the SEP, because it advocates an independent political perspective for the working class.

It did not just affect the SEP, but affected many smaller parties.

Labor and the Liberals are united in their agreement to try to suppress any political opposition that threatens to go outside their almost identical pro austerity, pro war agenda.


Just as in the US, (where censorship of smaller parties by means of ridiculous registration requirements is rampant- organised almost entirely by the Democrats) this was political censorship, motivated by the fear of the ruling elite that both their major parties (ALP and Liberals) were losing their electoral support base, and were therefore losing their ability to keep political oppositon constrained within the ossified Labor/Liberal framework.

 

[Crankyhawk]

In the last days of his presidency, Biden is planning to open up the floodgates for further military assistance to Ukraine. He wants to present Trump with "facts on the ground", ie he wants to make sure that Trump cannot suddenly stop the war even if he genuinely wanted to.

“President Biden directed me to oversee a massive surge in the military equipment that we are delivering to Ukraine so that we have spent every dollar that Congress has appropriated to us by the time that President Biden leaves office,” Jake Sullivan (Biden's National Security advisor) said Sunday on ABC’s This Week talk show program.

On November 21, the New York Times reported that the Biden administration is discussing the possibility of allowing Ukraine to deploy nuclear weapons. The Times wrote that “Several officials even suggested that Mr. Biden could allow Ukraine to have nuclear weapons again, as it did before the fall of the Soviet Union. That would be an instant and enormous deterrent. But such a step would be complicated and have serious implications.”

In the interview with ABC, Sullivan was directly asked about the NYT report above. Predictably, he denied it, saying:
“That is not under consideration. No. What we are doing is surging various conventional capacities to Ukraine so that they can effectively defend themselves and take the fight to the Russians, not nuclear capability.”

It needs to be recalled that every escalatory action taken by the Biden administration against Russia, including sending Abrams battle tanks, F-16s and long-range weapons, was preceded by an equally categorical denial on the part of the Biden administration.

I'd say to supply Ukraine with nukes would be unlikely. Would it not be violating the non proliferation treaty? and also while Ukraine is on the US "side" right now, it will give Ukraine further independent leverage if there is a change in power and a more hostile to the west leader emerges

 

[Chadwiko]

The photo might be fake, but this isn’t

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-chief-acknowledges-long-claimed-weapons-supply-to-syrian-rebels/

Yup! A classic 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' situation.

Israel (at the time) was primarily concerned with Hezbollah and Iran.

Hezbollah and Iran are key supporters of Assad's dictatorship in Syria.

The Syrian rebel groups were fighting Assad.

And around and around we go.

 

[Smeg Head]

Yup! A classic 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' situation.

Israel (at the time) was primarily concerned with Hezbollah and Iran.

Hezbollah and Iran are key supporters of Assad's dictatorship in Syria.

The Syrian rebel groups were fighting Assad.

And around and around we go.

Also far more than 2 arbitrary side in the Syrian conflict. But **** the Assad regime, was just used as a testing ground for 'russia' to bomb civilians. **** the iranian regime too, those campaigners kill their own people and keep branching out now into helping kill innocents in other countries.